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Big T28 Turbo

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This thread has gotten so pointless. The T28 is a good upgrade for a person looking for a mild performance upgrade over the T25. The EVO III 16G is a mild upgrade over the T28. The T28 killer is a waste of money period.

I had a ported FPT28 (still have it as I will be installing it on my Talon winter car) on my Eclipse and after a month realized that I wasted my money. It was my fault as I had high aspirations for the car and chose the wrong turbo. The EVOIII 16G would have been a better choice as it can maintain boost better at high RPM but if you really want to make lots of power you need a 50 trim or higher.

The T28 is a great little street turbo but the people saying that it is better or as good as an EVOIII 16G don't have a clue.

Those who say 50 trims spool too slow has never driven in a car with an FP green. :cool:
 
ShapeGSX said:
My Evo III 16G hits 43 to 44lb/min when I am at the track. :) So add another 100hp to your car. ;)

Were you using any airflow mangling devices like an AFC or a hacked MAF at all? That can lower airflow readings.

No I wasnt I was using a diag tool from work reading ONLY maf so it would be accurate. It was at around 16-17psi . I later tested it on my logger under the same conditions and read around the same. granted this was a summer day at around 85-90 degrees. I was also reading .94 o2's and good trim.
Andrew
 
Good read on the Potato, my bad. I always assumed it was the shape of the compressor map. Just look at the "Potato" compressor map, it looks like a DANCING potato chip :D

His flow rates are up for debate on the T28, depends on which T28 and from whom. So far I've seen T28s run everything from a Super60, 60 trim, 62 trim, 63 trim compressor wheel with flows varying all over the place. The EVO is completely wrong and way underrated. Didn't seem polite to correct him. Every other turbo he posted looked dead on to me.

Mitsubishi normalizes using 21*C (70*F) and (?) barometric pressure. Garrett uses 85*F and 13.7 psi at the compressor inlet. Using the ratio of the test density to your current density (look in the back of a thermodynamics book or go online) you can get a normalized mass flow rate. Without outside temperature and ambient compressor inlet pressure readings, mass flow rates can't be fairly compared to different cars or different turbo's.

Mass flow rate readings are great, but they are subject to a whole host of conditions. Your massflow numbers are always correct for the given conditions, because the ECU has already done a density calculation from its sensors. Its just that comparing requires a set standard. I've used temperature to cheat and really inflate those values. I take them with a grain of salt now. Any number I post now will be corrected to 85*F outside temps, just like the Garrett maps.
 
ShapeGSX said:
So how many Big28s have run 11s? I know of one, and that was an FP shop car.

I know my car has run several 11 second passes. Probably about 10 passes in the 11s. [email protected] is the best one. And my car isn't lightened at all.

The Evo 16G is such an awesome turbo because it is so cheap. ;)
I know the one your referring to Shape. You and I have had this discussion before between these two turbos. Remember.... about you having a 6 bolt with a higher flowing 1g tb, 1g intake manifold, and the higher flowing 1g head in your 2g. Remember now? All of the times with the Big28 over at dsmtimes.org are all more than likely on the stock 2g 7 bolt. If you look closely at the times list, most of the fastest times with the evo 16g are all on 1g's, with there higher flowing head. And what do you have under your hood, a swapped 6 bolt. I know of no other 2g that's running the Big28 with a swapped 1g tb, intake manifold, and 1g head, other than the one that Brian and Robert had from FP. But.... as I have said before, until I see more 2g's with 7 bolts running the 2g tb, 2g intake manifold, and the 2g head running fast times like you with your 6 bolt, then I will be sold on one. Until then.. no thankyou. It's not worth it to me to swap my Big28 out for an evo 16g. I would rather have a 50 trim. I do agree that it flows a tad more but not that much more. :)
 
Is it possible for a T28 to push a auto GSX into the 13's? I would consider that a mild upgrade.....
 
heavyD said:
This thread has gotten so pointless. The T28 is a good upgrade for a person looking for a mild performance upgrade over the T25. The EVO III 16G is a mild upgrade over the T28. The T28 killer is a waste of money period.

if you really want to make lots of power you need a 50 trim or higher.

The T28 is a great little street turbo but the people saying that it is better or as good as an EVOIII 16G don't have a clue.

Those who say 50 trims spool too slow has never driven in a car with an FP green. :cool:
I'm going to have to agree with most of that, but the t28 is more than a mild upgrade over the t25. The t28 is capable of producing more than 100hp more than the t25. Yes, the EVO 16g flows more than a t28 (hardly more than a big28), but "upgrading" in that sequence is a waste of time and money.


WSU99GSX said:
Is it possible for a T28 to push a auto GSX into the 13's? I would consider that a mild upgrade.....
Absolutely.


The fact is that there is a difference between the 28 series turbos just like the 16g family of turbos.
 
This whole thing about 2g heads being the major flow limiting point in 2g motors I respectfully disagree with. What kind of pressure drop are you guys expecting thru a cylinder port thats 3-4" long, aspirating only 1 cylinder at a time, and is as wide in cross section as 2 intake valves combined? Think about it, one head naturally aspirated flows for sake of arguement 250 cfm @ 3" Hg (.75 psi drop), a ported one flows 300 cfm @ 3" Hg. Turbo heads run under pressure, so take that head flow value and scale it by a density ratio of say 2.0 or greater. Now were talking a head that flows well over 500 cfm with .75 psi pressure drop. Now the ported one flows over 600 cfm @ .75 psi drop. If your at the point of even worrying about head porting your going to have a turbo capable of supporting +25 psi or greater, who's gonna miss another .75-1.0 psi, only a die hard. It certainly isn't flow limiting the engine, just stealing a little boost from it.

Upgrading the valve diameters or increasing valve duration, timing, and lift, or going to a bigger A/R turbine, that will argueably gain you a lot of power. The EVO's are running a head with cylinder ports as small as a 2G, are they not? Man, Buschur's customers EVO on a stock head is running 123 mph on the stock EVO turbo.
 
Generation X said:
I know the one your referring to Shape. You and I have had this discussion before between these two turbos. Remember.... about you having a 6 bolt with a higher flowing 1g tb, 1g intake manifold, and the higher flowing 1g head in your 2g. Remember now? All of the times with the Big28 over at dsmtimes.org are all more than likely on the stock 2g 7 bolt. If you look closely at the times list, most of the fastest times with the evo 16g are all on 1g's, with there higher flowing head. And what do you have under your hood, a swapped 6 bolt. I know of no other 2g that's running the Big28 with a swapped 1g tb, intake manifold, and 1g head, other than the one that Brian and Robert had from FP. But.... as I have said before, until I see more 2g's with 7 bolts running the 2g tb, 2g intake manifold, and the 2g head running fast times like you with your 6 bolt, then I will be sold on one. Until then.. no thankyou. It's not worth it to me to swap my Big28 out for an evo 16g. I would rather have a 50 trim. I do agree that it flows a tad more but not that much more. :)

Just remember that my car is probably 300lbs or more heavier than a comprable stock weight 1G, though, and my car is still running 117.5. 118mph on one occasion. Just drop my engine/turbo combo into a lightened 1G and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it run 120mph or faster.

Leon Reitman has always threatened to see if he could run a 10 second time on an Evo III 16G in his car. :) I bet that he could, considering what he ran with a 14B.

Frankly, I never saw much of a difference when I swapped from the 2G head/intake to a 1G head/intake. The 2G throttle body isn't a restriction. I expected to get some noticable power out of it, but it never materialized. :(

What did get me extra power? The cam swap. That was HUGE.

And to add to my 2G parts ain't so bad theory, Chris Nichols ran his full weight 2G with a 2G head/intake/throttle body, HKS 264 cams, and a big 16G with a Greddy front mount and Buschur 2.5" exhaust. He ended up running [email protected]. Yes, 3 to 4mph off of my best, but he never really tuned the car to its full potential. And he had the smaller exhaust and smaller cams.

To top it all off, the Evo's head is a small port design, and you sure don't see those guys complaining about flow!
 
ShapeGSX said:
Just remember that my car is probably 300lbs or more heavier than a comprable stock weight 1G, though, and my car is still running 117.5. 118mph on one occasion. Just drop my engine/turbo combo into a lightened 1G and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it run 120mph or faster.

Leon Reitman has always threatened to see if he could run a 10 second time on an Evo III 16G in his car. :) I bet that he could, considering what he ran with a 14B.

Frankly, I never saw much of a difference when I swapped from the 2G head/intake to a 1G head/intake. The 2G throttle body isn't a restriction. I expected to get some noticable power out of it, but it never materialized. :(

What did get me extra power? The cam swap. That was HUGE.

And to add to my 2G parts ain't so bad theory, Chris Nichols ran his full weight 2G with a 2G head/intake/throttle body, HKS 264 cams, and a big 16G with a Greddy front mount and Buschur 2.5" exhaust. He ended up running [email protected]. Yes, 3 to 4mph off of my best, but he never really tuned the car to its full potential. And he had the smaller exhaust and smaller cams.

To top it all off, the Evo's head is a small port design, and you sure don't see those guys complaining about flow!
The 1g tb is bigger in bore so therefore it will flow more especially when it's port matched on a 2g or people wouldn't be swapping them out. And we all know the 1g head has better top end flow characterisics as compared to the 2g head. It's been proven over the years on many occasions. The 1g head is considered an upgrade on the 2g. Anyways.... I don't want to keep beating a dead horse so I'm gonna leave it at that. Nice times by the way :thumb:
 
Generation X said:
The 1g tb is bigger in bore so therefore it will flow more especially when it's port matched on a 2g or people wouldn't be swapping them out. And we all know the first 1g head has better top end flow compared to the 2g head. It's been proven over the years on many occasions. The 1g head is considered an upgrade on the 2g. I don't want to keep beating a dead horse so I'm gonna leave it at that. Nice times by the way :thumb:

With a turbo as small as a 16G? Naah.

Only 2 intake valves are open at a time. The area of 2 open intake valves is TINY compared to the bore of a throttle body. How could an open throttle body be a restriction? On top of this, the intake manifold plenum serves as a reservoir for air. I saw zero improvement when I swapped a 1G throttle body onto my 2G intake manifold. And yes, I did port the inlet of the intake manifold out to the diameter of the 1G throttle body.

I have the data to back it up. I did the mods in 2 stages. First was the 1G throttle body on the 2G intake manifold, and then the 1G head and 1G intake manifold. I didn't see the huge improvement that everyone thinks will happen with either of those 2 stages. At least not with the small 16G I had on my car for both of those swaps.

Believe me, I wanted to see a difference after putting that much time and effort into it.

So, did you see a huge difference when you swapped to the 1G stuff? :confused: I have yet to see anyone that has.
 
ShapeGSX said:
With a turbo as small as a 16G? Naah.

Only 2 intake valves are open at a time. The area of 2 open intake valves is TINY compared to the bore of a throttle body. How could an open throttle body be a restriction? On top of this, the intake manifold plenum serves as a reservoir for air. I saw zero improvement when I swapped a 1G throttle body onto my 2G intake manifold. And yes, I did port the inlet of the intake manifold out to the diameter of the 1G throttle body.

I have the data to back it up. I did the mods in 2 stages. First was the 1G throttle body on the 2G intake manifold, and then the 1G head and 1G intake manifold. I didn't see the huge improvement that everyone thinks will happen with either of those 2 stages. At least not with the small 16G I had on my car for both of those swaps.

Believe me, I wanted to see a difference after putting that much time and effort into it.

So, did you see a huge difference when you swapped to the 1G stuff? :confused: I have yet to see anyone that has.
Nope.... I haven't done the swap yet, but I plan on it in the future. More than likely I will probably have the head ported and polished with a valve job. I have seen several that have gained around the 30 to 35 horse mark with the swap. It just appears to me that all the 1g's run faster times than there 2g counter parts, with the same turbos and set up, minus the 1g tb, intake manny, and head. I don't think that the 2g's weight would hinder it that much compared to a equally optioned 1g IMHO. :)
 
Generation X said:
What.. maybe 100 to 200lbs lighter at most.

I believe 1G's are just over 200 pounds lighter. 200 lbs is the equivalent of hauling an extra passenger ( and a large one at that) all of the time. Makes a difference.
 
heavyD said:
I believe 1G's are just over 200 pounds lighter. 200 lbs is the equivalent of hauling an extra passenger ( and a large one at that) all of the time. Makes a difference.
Which is right about 2 tenths of a second at most. :)
 
All you have to do is start giving real world examples of 2G cars that gained 30 to 35 hp with a 16G when they swapped to a 1G head, intake manifold, and throttle body. I'd believe you then.

I think that there probably are tiny gains to be made. But I sure didn't feel or see them when I swapped.

I'll be swapping to a cyclone manifold soon, and I know there are torque gains to be realized there. :)
 
ShapeGSX said:
All you have to do is start giving real world examples of 2G cars that gained 30 to 35 hp with a 16G when they swapped to a 1G head, intake manifold, and throttle body. I'd believe you then.

I think that there probably are tiny gains to be made. But I sure didn't feel or see them when I swapped.

I'll be swapping to a cyclone manifold soon, and I know there are torque gains to be realized there. :)
The proof to me is in the times list IMO. I know not everyone posts there times there, but it sure is strange how there are more faster times with the 1g than there are with the 2g with the same set ups, and a 200lb weight penalty isn't enough to cut it for me to believe. I know tuning is key for each and every car. I would like to see more 2g's with the evo 16g and stock 2g head run times and traps like you, of course in GSX form, then maybe I will believe it. I'm very impressed with your car. 117 to 118 traps ain't no joke. :)
 
Generation X said:
The proof to me is in the times list IMO. I know not everyone posts there times there, but it sure is strange how there are more faster times with the 1g than there are with the 2g with the same set ups, and a 200lb weight penalty isn't enough to cut it for me to believe.

Not everyone on the DSMTimes list has a stock weight car, though. In fact, I'd say that once you start venturing into the 11 second times on the list, it is probably rare to find a car that is at stock weight. Especially when it comes to 1Gs, which are all over 10-15 years old now. Doesn't take much convincing to start taking stuff out of a car that old in the name of going faster.

Also, the 1G timing maps are a bit more agressive than the 2G maps. There are too many differences between 1Gs and 2Gs to attribute time differences to just one thing (the different head).
 
I have a ported FPBIG28 and all supporting mods less a SMIM and CAMS. Last night I logged 36LB/MIN @ 20PSI with my DSMlink. This turbo is SUPER easy to install and is maintenance free meaning next to no one has issues with them even after 50k miles of abuse.

The only reason I purchased this turbo is because I thought it had potential for high 11's and honestly I dont think it does. Basically FP mislead me with the posting of their track time. High 12s are easy on a 2G GSX especially with race gas, but I am looking for more than that (FP Green).

If anyone is interested in a 4 month old (receipt included) ported FPBIG28 w/17 PSI adjustable acutator I will let it go for $600 shipped. I also have 4 month old 550cc injectors for sale as well. I will let those go for $250 shipped. My email is [email protected] and I guarantee this turbo and these injectors are in like new condition.

I can snap you some pictures, post some DSMLink logs, or just plain answer questions about this turbo, whatever you want just shoot me an email.

Thanks,
Jeff Jeske
 
ok from what ive read the FPt28 is probably the route i wanna go since its an easier bolt on right? not kit to buy like the b16g. But i also read that the 28 is not all that great for FWD since i wil light up my tires pretty quick.Or should i be looking at the 16g because of traction issues since it takes it a bit longer to spool up? i also noticed that people with 2g dont get as good times as 1g with 16g's.
 
ShapeGSX said:
Not everyone on the DSMTimes list has a stock weight car, though. In fact, I'd say that once you start venturing into the 11 second times on the list, it is probably rare to find a car that is at stock weight. Especially when it comes to 1Gs, which are all over 10-15 years old now. Doesn't take much convincing to start taking stuff out of a car that old in the name of going faster.

Also, the 1G timing maps are a bit more agressive than the 2G maps. There are too many differences between 1Gs and 2Gs to attribute time differences to just one thing (the different head).
You bring up a good point about weight. I know I'm not in the 11's or any where close but I have lightened my car up some, and mines a 97. You brought up another good issue that I completely forgot about. I agree with you that the timing maps are a bit more agressive on a 1g, and what do you have in your 2g, a 6 bolt, which along with the better flowing tb, intake manifold, and head in conjunction, should make a good difference IMO. As I said before... I will have to see more 2g's with the stock 7 bolt run more times like you have before I'm convinced. That's just me though. There have been several 2g's with the stock 7 bolt over at dsmtimes.org that have run low 12's with the Big28. I have run 8.7's @ 85 mph in the 1/8, before my new clutch, light weight flywheel, LSD, and my HKS 264/272 cams were installed, in a wrong wheel drive fwd at 20psi and pump gas. :)
 
george5366 said:
ok from what ive read the FPt28 is probably the route i wanna go since its an easier bolt on right? not kit to buy like the b16g. But i also read that the 28 is not all that great for FWD since i wil light up my tires pretty quick.Or should i be looking at the 16g because of traction issues since it takes it a bit longer to spool up? i also noticed that people with 2g dont get as good times as 1g with 16g's.
I heard about the FP Big28 having the reputation of a FWD tire burner too. I decided to go with one anyway because of many reasons already covered in this thread. I found my GST happily spinning the tires at will after I put in my FP Big28. I also found myself learning to better control the throttle! During normal daily driving I have no trouble controlling my tires. It just took practice. No more mashing the pedal to the metal. I've learned where the boost will kick in and modulate the throttle to prevent traction loss. I also like having the ability to break the tires free when I want to :D
 
toojung2die said:
I heard about the FP Big28 having the reputation of a FWD tire burner too. I decided to go with one anyway because of many reasons already covered in this thread. I found my GST happily spinning the tires at will after I put in my FP Big28. I also found myself learning to better control the throttle! During normal daily driving I have no trouble controlling my tires. It just took practice. No more mashing the pedal to the metal. I've learned where the boost will kick in and modulate the throttle to prevent traction loss. I also like having the ability to break the tires free when I want to :D
So was it an easy bolt on? had any problems with it so far? how are the pulls on the higher rpm?
 
george5366 said:
So was it an easy bolt on? had any problems with it so far? how are the pulls on the higher rpm?
It was an easy bolt-on. The only problem was with the oil supply line but I expected that. It doesn't want to come loose at the fitting that joins the turbo side line to the oil pump supply line. You'll have to be careful not to twist the lines. Use brake line wrenches so you don't round off the hexes.

I've had no problems. I expect it to last as least as long as a stock t25. It holds boost all the way to redline. The t25 starts to run out of wind at about 5K RPM. Keep in mind I still have a long way to go to begin to experience what this turbo is capable of doing. I'm only pushing 15 PSI because I have stock injectors and no fuel management (yet).
Jon
 
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