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2G Best Turbo for Road racing and Autocross in mind

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JoshMc

Proven Member
93
16
Nov 18, 2015
Kansas City, Missouri
just to give a little background, I'm looking for opinions on my potential turbo set up...

Car is a 96 GSX 2.0 10.5:1 motor on e85, EVO 8 ECU, and all other supporting mods Full 3" exhaust etc,

I'm looking into just keeping my FP Manifold and keeping the stock size mitzu housing turbo's, or upgrading to a true Twin scroll T3/T4 setup..

what are the pros and cons, Obviously price is the main factor of switching to a twin scroll setup and having to buy the new turbo, Manifold, dual wastegates, new down pipe etc.

but will you really see a significant impact in switching? est cost on the low end would be in the $2,000-$3,000 range. im just looking for some guidance for my future goals and if switching would even be worth the investment

but what would you prefer to have?
Currently im on a TDO5h 20g with the FP Manifold internally gated, power goals are in the 350-450 range, and im wanting to have the most area under the graph, Spools quicker ideally in the 3,000-3,500 range, and holds boost through out the entire power band. something with all around great response time to make that 350ish HP/Torque as quickly as possible, and hold it all the way to redline!

i have seen quite a few hybrid turbos show up in the past, like a T3 20g, all of @JusMX141 hybrids he builds, what options are out there for my goals in mind? or should i just stay with where im at!

btw the preference is more in road course than autocross, So longevity is also a key factor to consider when running for 10-20min sessions!

Thanks in advance!
 
just to give a little background, I'm looking for opinions on my potential turbo set up...

Car is a 96 GSX 2.0 10.5:1 motor on e85, EVO 8 ECU, and all other supporting mods Full 3" exhaust etc,

I'm looking into just keeping my FP Manifold and keeping the stock size mitzu housing turbo's, or upgrading to a true Twin scroll T3/T4 setup..

what are the pros and cons, Obviously price is the main factor of switching to a twin scroll setup and having to buy the new turbo, Manifold, dual wastegates, new down pipe etc.

but will you really see a significant impact in switching? est cost on the low end would be in the $2,000-$3,000 range. im just looking for some guidance for my future goals and if switching would even be worth the investment

but what would you prefer to have?
Currently im on a TDO5h 20g with the FP Manifold internally gated, power goals are in the 350-450 range, and im wanting to have the most area under the graph, Spools quicker ideally in the 3,000-3,500 range, and holds boost through out the entire power band. something with all around great response time to make that 350ish HP/Torque as quickly as possible, and hold it all the way to redline!

i have seen quite a few hybrid turbos show up in the past, like a T3 20g, all of @JusMX141 hybrids he builds, what options are out there for my goals in mind? or should i just stay with where im at!

btw the preference is more in road course than autocross, So longevity is also a key factor to consider when running for 10-20min sessions!

Thanks in advance!

Extremely interested in this as well. Primarily autocross but both disciplines are of interest. Currently on a TD06SL2 20G / FP manifold, 10:1 2.0L running flex fuel. I am considering a twin scroll Hx35 setup from Morrison fab but am a bit concerned about the transient response of a large (relatively) journal bearing turbo when the throttle is changing position every few seconds.
 
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OP, it sounds like you want a stroker. It would be the easiest way to get everything you want, but keep in mind that the whole setup matters. You have to stay with conservative cams (GSC S1 for 350-400HP ideally), OEM or Evo 123 intake manifold, and an external wastegate with electronic boost control. This wastegate setup would keep the wastegate closed longer, maximizing your spool potential, and the internal gate saps a lot of power if it's recirculated. Wrap the turbo and manifold to keep as much heat inside of them as possible and help spool, also bonus points for dropping IATs. Every bit put together would add up to a big difference.

Your goals vary wildly, though. A 350whp setup can easily hit your spool goals, but 450whp will be a lot harder, especially if you want to hold power at high RPM. Also consider that those spool numbers you gave are commonly for 3rd or 4th gear. When you go into bigger turbos, it affects 1st and 2nd gears a lot more than just the few hundred RPM difference you see in the higher gears.

The original 7cm TD05H 68HTA is probably the best turbo for the job, followed closely by the stock Evo III turbo.
If you're willing to spend money, T4 TS EFR7163 with a short & narrow runner manifold, hands-down. The Peepers HX35/12cm T3 is probably a decent choice if you have a stroker. The TD06SL2 is laggy, I would think that the Peepers HX35 setup would outspool it handily.
 
What I run is a 2.3ltr, at 9.5:1 with a Garrett 6076. It's a T4 flange. So, depending on what you plan on doing more, will be the deciding factor. AutoX demands a much more low end turbo and might not be suited to the long straights and sustained revs that road racing calls for. In my experience, you're very rarely ever in second gear when road racing, so deciding on what you want to focus on will help with your decision. Also, when it comes to boost control, you have to find out what's legal in your sanctioning body. Where I race, if you put a boost controller in, that'll bump you a class. I make 370whp at 15psi with my turbo. It's a bit laggy, but I learned throttle timing and balance. Definitely try and refine your goals. That'll help much more in your decision.
 
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The transient response is really damn good (if you don't mind us saying) and didn't start to "suffer" until the larger hx40 wheels were used- although boost threshold was still pretty similar. Even when keeping the rpm low in the video. It's not a small upfront cost, but it does put the HX35 - a journal bearing turbo that isn't exactly a "lightweight" - into a different class as far as low/midrange and response.
The downside is the flow potential of the divided T3 footprint (an open T3 housing can and likely will make a higher peak number) as well as the limited turbo options, which is why divided T4 should always be kept in mind. We would love to see a low inertia turbo package such as the g-series or EFR line paired with the divided T4 small runner :)
 
Currently im on a TDO5h 20g with the FP Manifold internally gated, power goals are in the 350-450 range, and im wanting to have the most area under the graph, Spools quicker ideally in the 3,000-3,500 range, and holds boost through out the entire power band. something with all around great response time to make that 350ish HP/Torque as quickly as possible, and hold it all the way to redline!
You're high compression but you're running E85 so that helps...I'd say lose the FP manifold and go with a ported 2G or Evo III unit instead, upgrade the 20G you have to a performance billet compressor, and it shouldn't get much better than that without stepping up into the 55-58mm compressor range where spool will begin to suffer a bit.

If you want power that stays until redline you have to open up the turbine side a bit and that translates into lag. For that type of racing I wouldn't want to go larger than necessary unless your program is like 90% track and 10% autocross.
 
I was interested in autoX, but I feel the need to chime in now due to my specific setup.

I am running a "stock" 2g exhaust manifold w/ External Gate provision (utilizing top & bottom ports) on a bastard 20g turbo.
2g o2 housing is ported to match hotside of turbo.

Running 25 psi and power is to redline, at least 7k. 3k to 3.5k full boost for sure.

I wouldn't trade this turbo for anything.
 
I am more curious about the Autocross side of this question(not to thread jack). Im on a stock 2.0 with E85 and a E3 16g. Pretty much second gear all the time. Same hp goal as above. I eventually want a 2.3 stroker as well, maybe next off season. What would be a great turbo for the transient response/spool? I was looking at the GTXxxR series (small/ball bearing)
 
I am more curious about the Autocross side of this question(not to thread jack). Im on a stock 2.0 with E85 and a E3 16g. Pretty much second gear all the time. Same hp goal as above. I eventually want a 2.3 stroker as well, maybe next off season. What would be a great turbo for the transient response/spool? I was looking at the GTXxxR series (small/ball bearing)

I would also really like to see results from the smaller ball bearing Garretts (GTX28-30) on a DSM platform but they do not appear to be that popular. The Evo guys seem to have adopted them more.
 
I've heard of some people 'downgrading' from the E3 16G to the 14B for autocross purposes, so realistically, you're probably looking at something in the GTX28 range if you want to get things done properly. On the 2.0L, the GTX3071 is too slow to respond for slaloms and tight pinches.
 
One possible turbo to experiment with is the Holset HX30W. I see them rated somewhere between 35-40 lb/min, but there are billet wheels out there that advertise mid 40s. The 6cm housing will spool very quickly (but probably choke before 40 lb/min), the 7cm will lag a tiny bit but flow more, or you could try to make the divided 12cm housing spool as fast as possible. It's something that you can experiment with, just by swapping between the 5, 6, 7, 8 and 12cm housings. Given that Holsets are surprisingly efficient diesel turbos that adapt well to gasoline applications, it may outperform billet wheel TD05H offerings by a small margin.
 
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For me at 2.0L with an Evo316G was worse for autox than my 2.4 running a GT3076R (not newer GTX). They are both too laggy to be really competitive, but can be fun anyway. Anything larger is just too slow. The courses we have here are really tight so that influences my opinion pretty heavily. Lots of other areas run much faster and larger courses allowing an EVO16G to be perfectly acceptable.
 
For me at 2.0L with an Evo316G was worse for autox than my 2.4 running a GT3076R (not newer GTX). They are both too laggy to be really competitive, but can be fun anyway. Anything larger is just too slow. The courses we have here are really tight so that influences my opinion pretty heavily. Lots of other areas run much faster and larger courses allowing an EVO16G to be perfectly acceptable.

Wow. What RPM were you at during your deaccelerated turns? I have never ran an AutoX event yet, due to the DSMshootout canceling. But, I would imagine your RPM's should not drop below 3k. So, where is this lag coming from?

I WOULD LOVE A CABIN VIDEO. I need to buy a GoPro this summer.
 
Wow. What RPM were you at during your deaccelerated turns? I have never ran an AutoX event yet, due to the DSMshootout canceling. But, I would imagine your RPM's should not drop below 3k. So, where is this lag coming from?

I WOULD LOVE A CABIN VIDEO. I need to buy a GoPro this summer.

I can't speak for him, but I know for myself, depending on the course setup, you can dip down below 3k rpms. Most noticeably in tight 180s with a single pivot cone.

Given you have factory ratios in the trans and rear end and your overall wheell/tire diameter is near factory size, second gear rpm drops below 3k at 26 mph. That sounds slow but there have been plenty of courses I haven't gone above 45-50 mph in the fastest sections. I'm definitely below 25 in the slowest portions. And I know I personally don't bother fighting the trans into first gear and just leave it in second.

Finding a turbo to haul you out of that tight 180 in second gear and then be enjoyable on the freeway with your corvette buddies the next evening is a tall order. I think given the prevelance of better fuels and tuning solutions it makes more sense these days to build high compression motors and go bigger with the turbo than would be typically recommended. Let the compression do the work where the turbo can't. But that is if your car does more than autox. Otherwise the small factory turbos are really the best bet.
 
DSM gearing is definitely a liability in autocross. The 1-2 drop is just awful, and it has too much final drive.
Example: a DSM can do 69 MPH at 7,500 RPM in 2nd gear with stock gearing. That's a good speed to have. But shifting from 1st to 2nd will drop you out of boost. Low-speed, it isn't very helpful to go down to 1st because it's so short, and 2nd takes too long to get the RPM back up. Shifting up and down will cost time and wear out synchros.

Go with Evo gearing if at all possible. The 1st gear is closer to 2nd by over 5%, and the shorter final drive will make 2nd gear short enough that you can use it in low speed elements. Rev out to 8,300 with Evo 3 gearing and you have the same top speed in 2nd as you had at 7,500 RPM with the DSM gearing. Using Evo 1 gearing, you only need 7,900 RPM. Perfect. The 4G63 can rev well past its stock redline (if properly built), but revving higher won't do much for you on the stock DSM gearing.

This is why I was cautious recommending a turbocharger for this, since it varies by setup. There is very little overlap between a turbo on a stock-geared DSM that will work for autocross, and a turbo on a stock-geared car that will work for road racing. The Evo III 16G and 1st gen 68HTA is probably the best balance between the two, as you *could* autocross and road race on the same turbo. Any smaller, and you'll lack power on long circuit straights (and generate lots of heat with the boost turned up). Any bigger and you'll lag your way to the autocross finish line.
 
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I think the Garrett G25 series has some real potential to bridge the power/spool gap on our small displacement cars. But the up front cost and limited turbine housing options is a deal breaker for right now. I see they are coming out with a T4 TS IWG housing but it does not appear to be widely available in the states yet. Only listed on Garrett's site and a couple foreign vendors.
 
@Canadian_CD9A I'm already on a TMZ stage 4 with a complete, EVO 3, 1st through 5th gear set up! Forgot to mention that! With a 4 spider center and Quafe? Front diff

I also work for Honeywell, different area of the company but still Honeywell! so I'm going to attempt to get in contact with the right people to see if maybe I could get a discount on one of the Garrett turbos.... would be sweet if I could figure that out!
 
I would be comfortable going with something 16G level or above, then.

The G25-550 is a decent sized turbo (50 lb/min), but turbine housings are limited, and would require a very custom v-band manifold. The transient response on the G25 is quicker than the Garrett GT-series, but EFRs still have lighter turbine wheels and will respond quicker. The EFR 6258 (any turbine housing) and maybe even the EFR 6758 (IWG, .64 A/R) on a stock or ported manifold would probably do very nicely. The 6258 will probably peak the same, or a bit lower than a 68HTA, but respond much faster. The 6758 will make bigger numbers, but the added flow will hurt response. Still, I doubt the 6758 has worse transient response than any 16G+ sized turbo, and would probably be on par with a G25-550 in a smaller housing.
 
Wow. What RPM were you at during your deaccelerated turns? I have never ran an AutoX event yet, due to the DSMshootout canceling. But, I would imagine your RPM's should not drop below 3k. So, where is this lag coming from?

I WOULD LOVE A CABIN VIDEO. I need to buy a GoPro this summer.

In a small, tight autocross course it is ENTIRELY possible for an E316g to feel laggy. I started doing road course track days a few years ago and just started autocrossing last year in my 1g.

Here is a video where my turbo lag felt unbearable in a small-ish autocross course that only gets up to 2nd gear. After doing a 180 degree turn (which really wasn't all too tight) followed immediately by an uphill climb. It felt like forever before the boost kicked in and I could start going up the hill with some actual speed. I'm sure that someone who is skilled in left foot braking could have minimized that lag alot by keeping the turbo more spooled while braking before the turn, but my left foot is not that well trained. My time that day was 48.5 sec. For reference, the FTD was 45.9 sec done by a modded Ford Focus RS, who usually kills it when he comes out. I held my own and held off/beat most corvette c4, c5, c6, and c7s that day so I did ok.
Apologies for the crappy buzzy video, it was done on my iPhone ziptied to an amazon camera mount suctioned to the windshield :)

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The red circled area in the attached autocross layout map was where I was climbing uphill and where the lag was present.

I would classify myself as a 75% Roadcourse Guy and 25% Autocross Guy. I don't mind a little lag if it means giving me decent power for Roadcourse, but can't be too laggy as to make autocrossing suck, so I'm thinking that the best turbo for that application on a 2.0L on a stock dsm trans might be V168hta from everything that I've read. I have one on my shelf and will probably swap that in to give it a shot next season, but gonna keep the E3 for this coming season.
 

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So.. I am getting ready to send my 14b in to have it rebuilt and I have options. These options include what compressor wheel, what cold side and hot side to run too many options. My 2g is going to be for quick spool I have been researching and a small 16g conversion / rebuild is an option. Is it a good option through? I am going to go billett wheel for this one I think, or possibly 9blade because the wheel is lighter and should spool faster. Or 9blade billett? Should I go with a stock hot side or a 7cm hot side? The 7cm hot side was highly recommended for power gains, but it will lose a little spool maybe not too much though. A 14b with a billett wheel is also possible, maybe even the best route.
 
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