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ECMlink Analyze first SD pull after MAFT disaster :)

Posted by COVR4355, Apr 20, 2017

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  1. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Well I feel like a born-again believer who had their demons cast-out- :p That incredible volatile MAFT I had was killing me…so with the counsel of the DSM gurus I decided to go Speed Density and boy is it so much better already-only have spent an hour so far and the car runs incredibly better…obviously needs great improvement via tuning.


    After delving into the wide-spectrum of tuning videos and guides: especially Dr. Turbos 1.9 version SD guide I know without a shout of a doubt I need to improve upon it…with the help of Kevin J I was able to correctly hook up my WB into DSMlink so that should aid both myself and whoever has the time to take a look and critique the logs.


    What needs to be improved upon?

    It seems I still need to pull timing under WOT…have already retarded 2% on the appropriate cells.
    In SDVE cells it seems I should put more fuel into it to even my wb and afrest correct in the +9 boost range? Also there seems to be +20 to -25% swings in the WBFactor as well...mess with global deadtime or individual cells?

    Furthermore, one of my biggest concerns is the stalling issue that I feared going to SD…it seems almost a 50/50 chance that after cruise or spirited driving once you take it out of gear to go to idle the car wants to die? Should I mess with basetip in that ECM discusses to help alleviate the stalling?

    Once again let me thank you all for your time and how grateful I am for your insight and aid in understanding these glorious cars…

    Have 17 days till I need the car dialed in so I can take the wife and light her up at our local drag-strip in her coyote mustang-cannot lose the wagers-leave it at that for all the kiddos :p


    Specs for the VR4 include:

    20g Turboported

    Speed Density-GMIAT and Omni4bar

    v3 DSMLink

    Wideband 2EO with Gauge

    HKS Electric Valve Controller

    HKS External Wastegate

    660cc Denso Injectors with AFPR

    Walbro 255 fp with rewire

    Greddy Blow-off valve mounted on top of FMIC

    Ross Pistons

    Eagle Rods

    HKS 262 and 272 Cams


    1. BOV starts to slowly leak at +10 psi- damn you TYPE R Greddy I will replace you soon enough


    2. Mechanical timing is right.


    3. Base timing is at 5 degrees


    4. Ignition System plugs have 3.5k miles on them with NGK BR7ES gapped at .28


    5. Compression test-waiting on purchasing a tester myself...previous owner shows 800 miles ago that all 4 cylinders where near 175 psi.


    6. TPS volts at .63-.65 and TPS at 0 and 100 WOT; ISC 20-40 range (hard to get it to stay at 30).


    7. Compression ratio is 8:5:1


    8. No known issues


    9. No DTC/CEL codes


    10. Electrical system rocks at the near 14 volt range-beefy Saturn alternator ftw


    11. Base fuel pressure is 39 psi and injector values set at Denso 660’s


    12. Wideband Sensor is configured correctly-TechEdge 2eo.


    13. 91 OCT at near Mile High altitude.


    14. Yes and Yes and all those found on YouTube from Jafro, Scott, and Snowboarder and chatting with brilliant GSTwithPSI, Howell, and Kevin J regarding tuning-cannot thank you all enough for your time!

    -Joshua-
     

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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    My DSM:
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  2. Jacolu3

    Jacolu3 Proven Member

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    Joined Jan 31, 2015
    Lake grove, New York
    First thing ill say is that I am still learning myself. So im sure more exerienced guys will have more and better info than me. But one thing I see that should be addressed is that your timing is too high on your full throttle pull. From my understanding it shouldnt be higher than 10 on pump, and your running 91. I would start by lowering your timing 1-2 degrees at a time where knock is present.
    Also like I said Im still learning but I dont see your wideband on your log. Are you simulating your NBO2?
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Drag Race Build

    16g   manual
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  3. doubleclutch

    doubleclutch Supporting Member

    551
    102
    Joined Jun 26, 2009
    Canton, Michigan
    I believe you are knocking at high RPM because you are too lean and you are too lean because your SD table is off. If you look at your wideband vs estimatedAFR, (essentially look at your wideband factor) you are roughly 12.3 AFR at higher RPMs you shouldn't be a whole lot leaner than 11.0. This should help with you knock. You essentially want to adjust airflow till your wideband factor is 0% across the whole open loop pull.
     
    My DSM:
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    T25   manual
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  4. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Exactly...thank you double for confirming that-119 sec's in WOT pull log. My question is should I attack the exact SDVE table that coincides with the leanness or should I try to adjust it with Global deadtime? Scott Lairds videos and a few other how to tune SD's focus on either one.
    Also do you have any idea to solve the deceleration issues of wanting to stall-out?
    Furthermore, what do you think I should do at 194-199 sec's in WOT pull log with that knock count? More fuel...it looks as if I am off by 9% fuel?
    Thank you and greatly appreciated :)
     
    My DSM:
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  5. doubleclutch

    doubleclutch Supporting Member

    551
    102
    Joined Jun 26, 2009
    Canton, Michigan
    Well, you are lean across the board, my understanding is you want to get you VE table to max out under 100% and then add global fuel for the rest of your adjustments. Injector deadtime has little affect at WOT and is used for idle adjustments.

    Based on WBfactor, you are richer then you think there. However, WBfactor doesn't apply in closed loop. I would pull some timing and see if it goes.
     
    My DSM:
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    T25   manual
    Loading...
  6. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    I will make sure to rich things up across the board and pull timing from the top of the pull...what do you think about the 3k knock-due to being too lean?
    Also do you think my ISC is working correct-I will do the jafro method and ohm it out just to be safe.
    Thank you everyone and will include a new log after the fixes later today!
     
    My DSM:
    Loading...
  7. doubleclutch

    doubleclutch Supporting Member

    551
    102
    Joined Jun 26, 2009
    Canton, Michigan
    I dont know that you will have to pull timing. I guess you can always put it back if it is ok.

    The 3k issue doesn't look like too lean as your wideband is richer than your estimated.

    ISC is moving, looks quite high. Should be able to back out the idle screw some to bring it down to where it needs to be.
     
    My DSM:
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    T25   manual
    Loading...
  8. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
    139
    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Looking at your second log I see that you see 2.5deg of knock coming in around 6k. With that being said, your timing is running around 15 deg. On piss gas, you're going to see knock unless you bring that down. Closer to 10-12 for the rest of the pull. As mentioned, aim to get your wideband in line with the WBFactor. You are showing roughly a 12% difference when in open loop doing a pull. Last I knew there was a excel sheet that did this for you via VE tables.
     
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
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  9. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
    139
    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Also, Your AFRest is bottoming out. Get that closer to your TechEdge and you'll be sitting pretty.

    Cursor was off the graph so dont pay att to the numbers shown.
    upload_2017-4-20_15-15-5.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
    Loading...
  10. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
    7
    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Thank you boosted and livedsm...should I just go with the stock 2g dsm or the Evo1 modded timing map so I am in the lower timing range or should I just put 10-12's across the board in that boost range?
    I am trying to utilize turbosaxes excel formula that you are talking about.
    Will post back soon and you gentlemen rock!
     
    My DSM:
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  11. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Here is another pull after adjusting the global fuel down by 4% and seems to have helped quite a bit...in using turbosaxes excel formula it shows I need to add 3 to 9 percent up top to be even on wbfactor....
    Do you guys think my ISC motor might be an issue in stalling-Dave via DSMLINK believes as much :( need to go junkyard diving if so.
    Also can anyone give their take on the timing range 10-12's...I know I just read some of GSTwithPsi's stuff regarding there really is no cookie cutter approach to set timing tables-cannot wait to afford 1200 cc injectors so I can go E85 :)
    Thank you all for your time!
     

    Attached Files:

    My DSM:
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    orangutan likes this.
  12. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
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    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Looking over your idle log at the beginning of the file, your AirflowPerRev is still off at 0.21. Change this to 0.25 by adjusting your biss. If this does not work, the ECMlink guys are right, something may be wrong with the ISC or the traces are burnt in the ECU. upload_2017-4-21_8-42-53.png

    Looking over your pull you are leaning out up top. Looking at your duty cycle you are only at ~74%. This means, A) you need to richen it up, or B) You ran out of pump. As for timing, and the knock shown, I dont sweat 1.4 deg of knock. Id worry about it if it gets over 3-5 counts. Also, timing for every car is different imo. Ive had some cars work better on lower timing and vice versa.

    upload_2017-4-21_8-45-1.png

    Finally, why are your timing tables backwards? You have more timing added into your Min table then your Max? If you are running 91, chances of it running on the min table is greatly increased.
    upload_2017-4-21_8-51-37.png
    upload_2017-4-21_8-51-53.png
     
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
    Loading...
  13. doubleclutch

    doubleclutch Supporting Member

    551
    102
    Joined Jun 26, 2009
    Canton, Michigan
    Wouldn't you increase you AirflowPerRev using the VE table in the idle region?
     
    My DSM:
    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    16g   manual
    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    T25   manual
    Loading...
    kmetiuk likes this.
  14. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    That's what I had thought too-isn't ones goal only to adjust biss for the isc? I know in Dr Turbo stuff it says to have the idle boxes on an sd tune to be in the range of 55-60?
    Thank you
     
    My DSM:
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  15. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
    139
    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Can it be done this way? Yes, but Ive had it skew the VE table in one direction when doing this. (I like my numbers to be centered.) Makes for better flow of cells, etc.

    You may have to play with it some. Adjust Biss within reason where the ISC is still close, then make some touchups in the VE table.
     
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
    Loading...
  16. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
    139
    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Looking at it now, your biss is shown to be in the mid 30's when idling and your Airflow per rev is around 0.23. I wouldnt worry about it, Id call that close enough.

    Next things I would do, fix your Throttle position as its 1% off. Even though you have sim idle switch to take care of this, it takes two seconds. This may be a reason why your values are skewed every now and again. For example look at the beginning of the log where the ISC should be operating and then at the end of the log where it really is operating. Next, fix your afrest and real afr values. Get them as close as possible within reason. From there, get better gas and turn up the boost.
     
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
    Loading...
  17. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
    7
    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Thank you all once again for your incredible knowledge and aid in tuning this amazing Galant VR4 :)
    I have adjusted the TP to read 0% at a stand still and then after some driving it goes back up to 1%-???
    Still trying to find that perfect + or 1 of 10 at 30 for the biss.
    Have increased the Airflowperrev to .25 -have cams so it still may be a little low-Dr. Turbo says to aim for .27 to .29.
    Do not have the stalling issue anymore-although it seems that the 15 lbs is still a little slow at WOT??? maybe timing can help?
    Please take a look at the logs and please dont hesitate to show my lack of tuning prowess :p
    Thank you for your time and esteemed knowledge
    -Joshua-
     

    Attached Files:

    My DSM:
    Loading...
  18. GST with PSI

    GST with PSI DSM Wiseman

    1,650
    1,016
    Joined Jul 27, 2005
    Annapolis, Maryland
    I rescaled your SD table (to bring it down to 100) and made a small change your global fuel to compensate for the rescaled table. I also smoothed it out so it's not so choppy. Download the file and copy it to your ECU.

    I'd concentrate on getting your global fuel right then worry about idle. Until global is stable you're going to be repeating work you've already done.

    Get the basics dialed in then worry about going fast. Once fuel is where it should be you can add timing and boost to get to racecar status.

    Do another pull on the new table and report back with a log.
     

    Attached Files:

    My DSM:
    1992 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

      manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4

    Street Build

    12.030 @ 119.39 MPH
    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST (sold)

    16g   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    Street Build

    14b   manual
    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (sold)

    16g   manual
    Loading...
    kmetiuk and COVR4355 like this.
  19. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

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    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    I am truly astonished with the consistency of thorough and esteemed knowledge you wonderful master-tuners are freely giving to a ricearonnie...newb like myself-need to start sending baked goods to everyone-make everyone slower with weight-gain :p
    In all seriousness, thank you everyone...and Brett, livedsm, and boosted you guys are truly amazing! The car is driving sooooooo-enough o's for emphasis :p-much better because of your maps and insight everyone. LOL, just pondering the onslaught of logs once I make the grand transition to E85 in the next 3 months once I can convince the wife for spending more money on my powerful-mistress with 1200cc injectors or more? (Don't tell her that :p)
    Thank you all!
    -Joshua-
    I will have some new logs tomorrow afternoon
     
    My DSM:
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  20. livedsm4g63

    livedsm4g63 Proven Member

    993
    139
    Joined Mar 1, 2008
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    1200s would work. How much boost do you plan on running?
    And yeah, 15 psi is childs play :p

    @GST with PSI
    You ever run into inconsistencies when tuning for SD? I remember I was always updating the VE table for either weather or ethanol content. If I didnt I would drop a substantial amount of power or it would just run like dog piss. I remember I switched back to MAF and I was extremely happy. LOL and yes I did have a GM IAT. My car could have been possessed too. Who knows.
     
    My DSM:
    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    11.495 @ 124.750 MPH
    Loading...
  21. COVR4355

    COVR4355 Proven Member

    52
    7
    Joined Mar 8, 2017
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    GST with Psi and Livdsm thank you once again for still tuning into my logs...here are two that I have played with a bit and have tried to find the sweet spot with little to no knock...still dont understand why I am getting 3 to 5-crazy 15 count of knock at .6 and 3500-4000 rpm cell?-counts of knock-I do have the balance shafts removed and exhaust sometimes rubs between 3.5k and 4k depending on cornering or such. Thank you once again and cannot wait to get 1200cc injectors and run E85 at 20 psi :)
    Wondering if I should just retard timing between 3k and 4k?
    Also after countless hours reading into AFR's and knock issues I am wondering if this specific setup would fair better with 91 octane at 10.8-10.5.1 AFR's your esteemed thoughts?
    You guys rock!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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