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!!!!! 2G Custom Ratio steering rack and Pinion! Survey only!!!!!

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Not sure if you're referring to me or not in your post 95REGF150, but I have driven plenty of vehicles without power steering. Hell, the first vehicle that I drove was an '82 Toyota Pickup with 33" tires and no power steering when I was a sophomore in high school. That thing was truly a bear to maneuver in a tight parking lot. That said, once you were moving it really wasn't all that bad.

But moving at low speeds like you would in an Autocross event with some wide, sticky tires would definitely not be enjoyable. same story for Road Racing, albeit the higher speeds involved in Road Racing may very well offset the extra effort required in all but the low speed corners. In either situation, I would rather have a powered option than not.
 
Driving a 2g, even with a properly depowered rack is no picnic at low speeds, but something you can get certainly away with for road-racing (not so much autocross). Are there cars from the 60's and 70's that are worse? Sure, but that's not really the point. Couple the effort with the horrendous turning radius we've got and I call it a battleship. You may disagree.

I'm not saying this isn't a great thing for some, and with a power option, as you mention, there's no reason not to be for it. I personally, have always be interested in a manual rack with the opposite effect because I'd be fine with more steering angle for reduced effort at low speed while ditching the PS crap (which also wouldn't be good for autocross, but I don't autocross).

Regardless of that, you can't reduce mechanical advantage without increasing steering effort (for you or for your power steering pump), so people should be prepared for a manual rack to require significant effort at low speeds, and more effort than an otherwise properly depowered manual rack, or for more load on your PS system.
 
Ok, then what you originally wrote is correct, but...they may have said it won't be harder to turn, and it may in fact not be immensely harder to turn, but it will be somewhat, that's just not how physics works.

A larger pinion gear means more linear motion of the rod ends per degree of rotation of the wheel, which means you are doing more work and will have more effort per degree of wheel turning.

If you think of the steering wheel to pinion gear as like a part of a transmission (which it is in this case), making the pinion larger has the same effect as making the steering wheel smaller.

Bottom line, less turns lock to lock means "quicker" steering, but more effort. There's just no way around that. For a power rack that's ok to get that quicker response, but for a manual rack, at least for me, that's a no go. It's hard enough as is to turn these battleships with a manual rack.
Im no expert on racks and the ratios so i wont pretend to k ow everything but i try my best to learn as much as i can,

But what i gather is a manual rack a true one is alot easier and its true ive had 2 cars with manual racks that weight about 1 tonne and they was fine to drive when moving slowly, a tad annoying in carparks but i dont sit there turning when not moving anyway because its bad for tires and also excess strain in the rod ends.
Its going to be alot easier then a looped rsck and ive been told a tad easier then a oeroperly de powered rack due to the bigger pinion and because its bigger less movement of the hands means less efford needed for a greater result.

Surely if the steering wheel goes smaller and pinion goes bigger does that not cancel each other out?
 
Bigger pinion and smaller steering wheel will both exacerbate the effort needed to turn the wheel, but will reduce the amount of turns needed from lock-lock.

For less effort, a smaller pinion or larger wheel will be needed.

I agree that for a manual rack this would be a bad idea. I have a depowered rack, and while manageable, it sucks for a daily. Its not the ratio or anything, it's the effort needed at low speeds and the harsh feedback in certain scenarios. For dedicated drag or road racing, sure the depowered rack (and even new ratio rack) might be great, but in a daily it would probably suck without power assist of some kind.
 
Bigger pinion and smaller steering wheel will both exacerbate the effort needed to turn the wheel, but will reduce the amount of turns needed from lock-lock.

For less effort, a smaller pinion or larger wheel will be needed.

I agree that for a manual rack this would be a bad idea. I have a depowered rack, and while manageable, it sucks for a daily. Its not the ratio or anything, it's the effort needed at low speeds and the harsh feedback in certain scenarios. For dedicated drag or road racing, sure the depowered rack (and even new ratio rack) might be great, but in a daily it would probably suck without power assist of some kind.
I understand the point. I think these will be aimed more at the racers mainly circuit who want to do less turning vs getting more angle while keeping hands on the wheel more then having to lift off to do another turn,

So it may not suit everyone and their arm power LOL, but its toing to be the ONLY option available to us
 
That's what I was trying to say earlier. The old manual steering cars in the 60's that were easy to turn had really high reduction ratios (small pinions). I had a 60 chevy and the steering box on that thing was like 7 or 8 turns lock to lock.

So I get what @Leitnin is saying if you went smaller pinion on our rack you could achieve the same effect. And yes a larger pinion gear set up is going to make it harder to turn than a proper manual rack in the same ratio we have now. It's possible that the larger pinion gear set may have around the same effort as a looped depowered rack. I guess we will have to see.

But the whole point of this swap is to get more steering angle for less turn of the steering wheel. Making it so your not throwing your arms around as much in the car when racing. For that it is worth any added effort.

Like I said if you are concerned about that and don't want added effort you need to stick with a powered gearset option if it ends up being possible.
 
Just an update i got details from Quaife and will get a post detailed up over the weekend of it all, will include new ratio specs and what they want for the kit and also some other info i have been working on for you for those wanting to retail a powered system!

Keep an eye out
 
Hello everyone, PLEASE READ IT ALL CAREFULLY! its detailed as much as possible so dont miss any parts! I will add more if I missed stuff also

As I said I recently got all the info from Quaife who have been working on my rack to get it designed and quoted for me/us.

firstly Im trying to bring new items to the group with as many new company's, as the more we get the better our chassis can become once more.

The new rack and pinion will be a kit which will also include the pinion bearing, pinion seal, pinion bearing cap and housing modification drawing.
Yes it says modification! here is why.

our OEM racks have a ratio of 2.55 lock to lock and in the size we have they could only get it down to 2.4 lock to lock! which is not good at all over stock, so they said they looked and did some checks and if 2mm overall so 1mm each side was removed from the ID then they could make a larger pinion and get the ratio to 2.1 lock to lock! which is WAYYYY better and really good infact!
I asked about strength and they said it was fine and will still be strong enough because that housing is still plenty thick enough, (Quaife wont risk it if they deem it unsafe for use)

They wont entertain any first batches less then 30! which might be the issue and problem here but if it works out next batches could be less per order so im lead to believe. initial batches and development first time is always tricky on quantity's,

again Im trying to bring some great high quality, highly needed items to this platform! if it dont work out we will never have such nice things LOL

For this Kit it will be $310 Shipped! and thats them shipping to me and then me shipping in 1 pallet to EMW, if I had to do separate shipping for those wanting to do it themselves or someone else to do it then I (guess) another $50 for that shipping because of length of the item and some strong boxes I would need to order. but single pallet shipping is much more cost effective to you all and a better saving also with is passed to you all!



Those wanting power steering still please read! I have a few options for you,

1, is a company that makes EPW (electronic power steering) can design different kits from street to race programmable kits but are not very cheap about $800 to $2k
2, you can make your own kit from your desired parts of choice and there are many items now out there $-$$$
3, I have located a guy in the US that will make a bolt on kit for a 2G and is willing to make kits up in batches for those wanting them at a decent price with instructions, this is going to be the cheaper option and also bolt on with minimal wiring this would cost around $250, maybe a tad less the more he gets orders for!

so they are the options for guys wanting PS but will have to switch to EPS,

EWM (Eaton motorworks) will/would be doing all the rebuilds/conversions of the housings for those wanting that and he is going to be looking into the modification of the housing part soon, so i dont have any details of this total cost as of yet. $TBC


So thats it everyone, its what I have so far for you all on this,

if this sounds like something that you would be likely to get involved in let me know, those serious will be logged for some basic numbers down on paper to log it all properly now the details have been placed here of more info.

again this is just a survey currently but now more serious! haha

Thanks everyone for reading Bobby

any questons please do ask.
 
What are the downsides to switching from hydraulic power steering to electronic? Because I am a panzi and want to keep my PS LOL.

Less feedback and in certain cases (usually dependant on what EPAS motor you get) Loss of auto-center return, and no speed sensitive assist with 90%.

If you don't mind an adjustable assist option, I'm working on one that will be fairly DIY.

If you're talking the mr2 electric pump style, that's more out if my realm, but I'd say complexity and component sourcing?
 
What are the downsides to switching from hydraulic power steering to electronic? Because I am a panzi and want to keep my PS LOL.
It really does depend on kit used, some kits have a sensors so it does iffer mkre feedback or feel then others. Normally the higher end units are the better units because its programmeable,

Its not super bad but it will take some getting used to thats all, things like feeling the road come differently.

But centering as another member mention is not lost completely, the EPS is not there to stop stuff happening. Centering is also down to how the suspension is setup also so no matter what kit you have it will want to self center depending how its set up
 
I'm in for the manual rack. So would I have to ship you my rack to be build? Turn around time?
Not to me no, eaton will be doing that part so he is who the racks would be going to,
 
Loss of auto-center return, and no speed sensitive assist with 90%.

I am not familiar with what these actually are if you could elaborate. It sounds like it might be a little too involving for someone like me who just wants a little more response in the steering wheel and not for a specific track purpose I guess. I guess I'm trying to make my DSM drive like an Evo and that may never happen :cry:
 
I am not familiar with what these actually are if you could elaborate. It sounds like it might be a little too involving for someone like me who just wants a little more response in the steering wheel and not for a specific track purpose I guess. I guess I'm trying to make my DSM drive like an Evo and that may never happen :cry:

Full electric rack motors from some toyotas, nissans, saturns etc that can be retrofitted into virtually any vehicle. I'm doing one for my 1g, that has a manual controller for assist amount from 0 to full assist (1 finger style while stopped). It's just low on my priority list rn.

With these you can get a bit of a disconnected feel, and not all of them auto-center of you release the wheel after a corner. Realistically it's a nice setup for a daily, or maybe a drag setup. Just depends on how much you depend on road feel.
 
Full electric rack motors from some toyotas, nissans, saturns etc that can be retrofitted into virtually any vehicle. I'm doing one for my 1g, that has a manual controller for assist amount from 0 to full assist (1 finger style while stopped). It's just low on my priority list rn.

With these you can get a bit of a disconnected feel, and not all of them auto-center of you release the wheel after a corner. Realistically it's a nice setup for a daily, or maybe a drag setup. Just depends on how much you depend on road feel.

I see what you mean now. So it could actually have negative effects on track for someone who prefers road feel over steering input?
 
Its not a negative effect, thats for sure. Look at alot of the top race cars, the ones keeping power steering are all Electronic now, most time attack cars are electronic because its the only setup that works with the downforce,

Some systems are lets out it, numb! They dont give any feel and kill the steering feel but not all are the same, some others offer assist and speed sensors, so as you get going the assist drops and custs out to allow it to act ans basically run like a non oower assisted system so you get full feel, some can even cut off completely and you are in full control of it and it will feel and react the same as a non powered setup completely
The programmeable units are good because you can adjust it in many ways.

EPS is not a bad thing if its used with the right setup,
Im honeslty not a huge fan of EPS but its the crappy ones ive used in cars that cause me to not like it LOL, if i was to get a better version it would be aload better. This is why im looking into a race power unit thats got its own box to programme, its a better way of doing it if assisted is needed, but im gonna try depowered first on my tire size and go from there
 
I see what you mean now. So it could actually have negative effects on track for someone who prefers road feel over steering input?

Kind of, it's not that you lose all feel, it's just not as apt at relaying the road to your hands. On a track car, where your always on the wheel and usually hard, it may be negligible, but if it comes down to the one time you need to know if its letting loose or not, I'd have a manual rack or p/s in place. Most of the issue comes from retrofitting a full electric setup (NOT electric over hydraulic), we just don't have the capability of cracking the epas computer to manipulate it, at least i dont.

Its not a negative effect, thats for sure. Look at alot of the top race cars, the ones keeping power steering are all Electronic now, most time attack cars are electronic because its the only setup that works with the downforce,

Some systems are lets out it, numb! They dont give any feel and kill the steering feel but not all are the same, some others offer assist and speed sensors, so as you get going the assist drops and custs out to allow it to act ans basically run like a non oower assisted system so you get full feel, some can even cut off completely and you are in full control of it and it will feel and react the same as a non powered setup completely
The programmeable units are good because you can adjust it in many ways.

EPS is not a bad thing if its used with the right setup,
Im honeslty not a huge fan of EPS but its the crappy ones ive used in cars that cause me to not like it LOL, if i was to get a better version it would be aload better. This is why im looking into a race power unit thats got its own box to programme, its a better way of doing it if assisted is needed, but im gonna try depowered first on my tire size and go from there

Precisely, much better than I can explain it. I'm working in cracking the gm units as they're easy to use with the dsm 1g steering column (mechanically) and adjustable, I just want to make a speed sensitive system for it and I'm not that savvy when it comes to computers or programming.
 
Kind of, it's not that you lose all feel, it's just not as apt at relaying the road to your hands. On a track car, where your always on the wheel and usually hard, it may be negligible, but if it comes down to the one time you need to know if its letting loose or not, I'd have a manual rack or p/s in place. Most of the issue comes from retrofitting a full electric setup (NOT electric over hydraulic), we just don't have the capability of cracking the epas computer to manipulate it, at least i dont.



Precisely, much better than I can explain it. I'm working in cracking the gm units as they're easy to use with the dsm 1g steering column (mechanically) and adjustable, I just want to make a speed sensitive system for it and I'm not that savvy when it comes to computers or programming.
Some units are easily cracked, some are not and cannot be done, i dont know alot about EPS personally apart from what i read and told by a few companys and people using them for racing. The ones retro fitting other units (budget) units so far dont seem to be having any issues with racing interms of feedback and such, so it must be fairly decent but again it must be dependant upon unit i guess
 
Some units are easily cracked, some are not and cannot be done, i dont know alot about EPS personally apart from what i read and told by a few companys and people using them for racing. The ones retro fitting other units (budget) units so far dont seem to be having any issues with racing interms of feedback and such, so it must be fairly decent but again it must be dependant upon unit i guess

Thanks for all the info. Makes much more sense. So would there be any adjustment in the EPS kit that would be offered for the $250? Or would that be more of a basic kit? The price does not seem too bad if it is beneficial. Not to mention you said it would be bolt on with minimal wiring.
 
Thanks for all the info. Makes much more sense. So would there be any adjustment in the EPS kit that would be offered for the $250? Or would that be more of a basic kit? The price does not seem too bad if it is beneficial. Not to mention you said it would be bolt on with minimal wiring.
I would have to ask that, i dont know the full specs but he made a kit for his car and said he would offer it out, i shall ask him and can let you know
 
I can't believe all the sissies crying about parking lots LOL. I have an Eaton manual rack and I absolutely love it. The handling is unbelievable especially in turns. Thanks Bobby for Brian's info a couple years ago!
 
I can't believe all the sissies crying about parking lots LOL. I have an Eaton manual rack and I absolutely love it. The handling is unbelievable especially in turns. Thanks Bobby for Brian's info a couple years ago!
No worries but whos Brian??? Lol
 
I can't believe all the sissies crying about parking lots LOL. I have an Eaton manual rack and I absolutely love it. The handling is unbelievable especially in turns. Thanks Bobby for Brian's info a couple years ago!

Haha, I have a depowered rack, and its livable, and the road feel is amazing, but it does get tiresome to drive. hard cornering makes it seem like I'm wrestling the wheel more than just driving, and a severe road irregularity or pothole can almost yank the wheel out of my hands. Parking lots honestly aren't too bad, it's mostly mental with me cuz I hate hearing drivetrain bind (I also have a welded center).
 
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