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2G Xona Rotor Turbochargers

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The 8374 seems likely to be more prone to surge by looking at that, but its hard to see with them overlayed.
 
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Maybe not who knows cant see enough. Although this guy seems to have that problem:
 
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I read the xona turbos are Tial branded or made by Tial, maybe my googling failed me but thats what i took from reading online, so they have a nicer CHRA setup but if its based on a FP turbo is there still going to be the same lower quality we see and reliability from the FP name?

Lower quality? What the heck are you talking about? FP has ALWAYS been high quality. There's a few people on this site that have become "gurus" so nobody questions them.... they like to downplay what FP has done. I don't know where that beef started but I would definitely take anything you read that is said matter of factly on this site with a grain of salt. FP's been f'ing with the DSM game since some of these kids were playing with hotwheels.

There's a reason, and I've said this before, that FP doesn't come on here and get into the nut swinging keyboard cowboy battles.... it's because they're out winning races.

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That's just from the front page of their site. Don't let the year 2016 fool you either, they didn't get suckier since then, they got better.
 
don't mean to highjack, but there's a lot of knowledgeable people in in this thread it seems. so....
I have a FP HTZ 3586, but no turbine housing yet... I have an SLS tubular T4 flanged header I plan to use.
1) what is this turbo capable of? I received it without the hot side and only break in mileage on it.
2) my goal is 600 to 680whp, any input on if this turbo can meet those goals and what A/R turbine housing to buy would be appreciated.
for reference, I'm currently making 436whp on a local mustang dyno @ 23 psi, e85 using an FP3052.
thank you
 
I just read the comment about surge and comparing the rb26 to the 4g. different mass flow rates through the engine and way different VE at different RPM, probably not a good comparison. there is a process for estimating airflow through the engine at different RPM and figuring out the boost your going to use. then plotting those points on the compressor map. Ive done it several times. RB26 and 4G are different animals.
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don't mean to highjack, but there's a lot of knowledgeable people in in this thread it seems. so....
I have a FP HTZ 3586, but no turbine housing yet... I have an SLS tubular T4 flanged header I plan to use.
1) what is this turbo capable of? I received it without the hot side and only break in mileage on it.
2) my goal is 600 to 680whp, any input on if this turbo can meet those goals and what A/R turbine housing to buy would be appreciated.
for reference, I'm currently making 436whp on a local mustang dyno @ 23 psi, e85 using an FP3052.
thank you
The 3586 HTZ is a 750whp turbo and has seen 9 second passes on some cars. It has been renamed the XR78•64 or has that same compressor with a couple different turbine options now (65mm and 67mm)
I’m not sure that a T4 housing is still being made but you can get A T3 .85, Tial Vband .82, or 1.03 or can look on the classifieds if someone is selling a DSM flanged FP35 bousing for a DSM86 (same turbo different housing) if you need a new manifold I can help you out there.
 
there is a process for estimating airflow through the engine at different RPM and figuring out the boost your going to use. then plotting those points on the compressor map. Ive done it several times. RB26 and 4G are different animals.

Save yourself some of the pain of writing all of that out by hand.

This is an excel file I made to do just that. All. Rough estimates of course but it gets you in the ball park and saves time.

If anyone has any comments or suggestions let me know too.
 

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  • Motor.xlsx
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The 3586 HTZ is a 750whp turbo and has seen 9 second passes on some cars. It has been renamed the XR78•64 or has that same compressor with a couple different turbine options now (65mm and 67mm)
I’m not sure that a T4 housing is still being made but you can get A T3 .85, Tial Vband .82, or 1.03 or can look on the classifieds if someone is selling a DSM flanged FP35 bousing for a DSM86 (same turbo different housing) if you need a new manifold I can help you out there.

FP told me I can use any standard gt35 housing. I have found a few T4 housing from garret and some china stuff. I mainly just don't know if I should use a .63 or a .82 housing. I don't really need 750whp, id be fine as long as I can break the 600whp mark. If a .63 housing could get me there and save a little lag in the process that would probably be the option I would want. I already have the SLS t4 header so that's what im going to use. I got it second hand otherwise I would have gone T3 or v-band.
Do you think I could make over 600 with the T4 .63 housing? would it spool noticeably faster?
 
I wouldn't be scared to run a 67mm in an street driven auto car. Just has to be set up for how you want to use it. I had a 69mm borg, twinscroll manifold, 1.0 divided housing, fp2 cams, precision industries #8 converter, magnus v2 manifold. Needed nitrous to get on converter to launch, but other than that, it did really well driving around without nitrous. And still a mid-9 car at 3300lbs. And quicker with spray on top of boost. The FP 67mm I would bet will make more power than the borg 69 and spool just as well (if not better) if set up the same.

BTW, swapped to a 62mm bb FP turbo and it didn't "spool" any better. Converter and cams basically made them perform the same, but missing a bunch of power once boost was in and the converter flashed.
 
The 3586 wheel is worth 78 lbs/min (hence the XR name), and best case scenario I can get 10x airflow in dynojet numbers, or 780 whp dynojet. I would lean toward the .82 housing if you are considering that and the .63. I put 103 lbs/min plus a 100 shot through FP's .85 T3 housing (that won't compare directly, but helps to give at least some idea) on the super 99 with no signs of restriction, so a T3 flange can go pretty far.
 
I've heard the general rule you can make 10 bhp for every pound of mass flow, sometimes better, but id think that's on an optimized setup or one that may disregard lag as a factor. attempt to keep back pressure low and intake pressure high. With a smaller AR I always picture the "thumb over the end of a garden hose" analogy smaller AR makes higher velocity exhaust gasses at the cost of mass flow. So .63AR on a 3586???

I wish I had a t3 flange header, but I do not, nor do I currently have funds for one. I have a T4. what do you think I could make with the T4 .63 housing on this turbo? My goal is ballpark 650whp with the best spool possible. 600whp on the local dyno here is 9 second territory. The tuner I used last ran a 10.7 ET making 380whp on this dyno in an EVO RS.
with my current FP3052 setup I make 440whp on the same dyno on a 95-degree Minnesota humid day, So its hard for me to just throw numbers out there I guess, as we all know a dyno is just a tool. But basically I want to sh*t my pants when I get on it, and this mid 400whp isn't doing it for me anymore. Is the .63 housing worth a damn on this turbo or should I run a .82??? I have a 6-bolt magnus cast ITM, FP2 cams, ported magnus stage 3 head with +1mm valves if that makes a difference in your opinion.
thanks and happy holidays to everyone as well.
kevin Jewer? don't you have that compound charged car?
 
good ole 35r should do what you want. or a billet 3076 of some flavor. both should be available with t4 housings, even if it's not listed.

divided or non divided t4 manifold?
 
Once you've measured (or calculated and calibrated in the case of speed density) the airflow, all of your restrictions and details are factored in already. Things that affect VE will change the boost it takes to make that airflow, but 1 lb/min is 1 lb/min. The 10x airflow always holds true (for good setups), regardless of the details. Pumping losses are an additional factor and hard to quantify, but it's small. To give some examples, on my dyno I made 425 whp at 42 or 43 lbs/min, totally pegged of course with high back pressure. By comparison our 2g was out for a Sunday drive at 71 lbs/min on a ~115 lb/min capable setup and made 701 whp. That was an interesting one because I raised the boost slowly and at 4 or 5 different airflow levels it made 10x on the nose. My truck with a maxed out XR 6156 made 593 whp at 60 lbs/min. You get the idea. But not all cars can do this! Everything has to be right. I had a lot of customer cars that simply couldn't do it, even though I was tuning it and adjusting anything I could to get the power up. I haven't quite put my finger on why some cars can't do it and some can.

At any rate, this is called brake specific air consumption, or BSAC. It's linked to brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) through AFR. But it's a good one size fits all estimate for max HP potential, where BSFC varies wildly with fuel selection. Some fuels can exceed 10 hp per lb/min airflow, but it seems I've yet to figure out how to do it. Even on super rich methanol my car made 10x.

.63 and .82 still sound like T3 housing options to me. T4 ARs should be different. In any case, I don't have enough T4 housing experience to be of any real help there.
 
good ole 35r should do what you want. or a billet 3076 of some flavor. both should be available with t4 housings, even if it's not listed.

divided or non divided t4 manifold?

I already have the FP HTZ3586, just no hotside. I also have an Straight line specialties T4 undivided tube header. trust me id rather have a T3, but the deal on it was right.

Once you've measured (or calculated and calibrated in the case of speed density) the airflow, all of your restrictions and details are factored in already. Things that affect VE will change the boost it takes to make that airflow, but 1 lb/min is 1 lb/min. The 10x airflow always holds true (for good setups), regardless of the details. Pumping losses are an additional factor and hard to quantify, but it's small. To give some examples, on my dyno I made 425 whp at 42 or 43 lbs/min, totally pegged of course with high back pressure. By comparison our 2g was out for a Sunday drive at 71 lbs/min on a ~115 lb/min capable setup and made 701 whp. That was an interesting one because I raised the boost slowly and at 4 or 5 different airflow levels it made 10x on the nose. My truck with a maxed out XR 6156 made 593 whp at 60 lbs/min. You get the idea. But not all cars can do this! Everything has to be right. I had a lot of customer cars that simply couldn't do it, even though I was tuning it and adjusting anything I could to get the power up. I haven't quite put my finger on why some cars can't do it and some can.

At any rate, this is called brake specific air consumption, or BSAC. It's linked to brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) through AFR. But it's a good one size fits all estimate for max HP potential, where BSFC varies wildly with fuel selection. Some fuels can exceed 10 hp per lb/min airflow, but it seems I've yet to figure out how to do it. Even on super rich methanol my car made 10x.

.63 and .82 still sound like T3 housing options to me. T4 ARs should be different. In any case, I don't have enough T4 housing experience to be of any real help there.

good insight, thank you. I have already found both AR's in T4 footprint. just haven't decided which can meet my needs yet.
 
In my experience the 3586 was faster in a .63 while making 70+ more hp between 8500-9500 rpms with the .82. With standard Dsm gearing you have to nail a 1-2 shift at 11,000 rpms to not fall out of boost when you hit 2nd with the .82. That’s almost impossible without a dog box.
 
when revving to those levels, how long is a short block going to last, say in a weekend summer car. almost never tracked? I rip it when I drive it though.
Am I going to be pulling the engine every season at that point for a refresh? I have a magnus bottom end w/ billet rods, their Ross forged pistons, and a knife edged OE 6-bolt crank.
 
Any chance you were logging back pressure on this?
No, but I’m sure it’s much higher with the .63 after 30ish psi on my setup. The 35r turbine makes 700hp in a .63 housing and spools really fast for a 700hp turbo. It’ll make 800 with the .82 but is a really laggy 800hp turbo compared to say a 6466.

No if I was running an auto drag car I’d have zero issue running the .82 setup. But in a street driven car it sucks. I couldn’t hit 25 psi from a roll in first.
 
I put the .63 T3 housing on my 3582HTA in my compound setup, and I assume it's part of my 1.5:1 back pressure to boost pressure situation. I want to try the .82 to see what effect it has, hopefully it doesn't slow down spool too much, because this combo works brilliantly. There's only one way to find out I guess.
 
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