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Need opinions on T25 or 14b

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jinscho

Proven Member
636
321
Jun 16, 2017
Bangor, Pennsylvania
First thing out of the way. This is going on a 4G64 SOHC turbo swap. I'm not doing a head swap, and I'm only looking to run 7-8lbs with a stock 2g SMIC. Doing this as more of a 'look what I did' than building a track car.

That out of the way, I'm going to be hitting up a local shop that parts out DSMs later today. He has a T25 that I can pick up for $80, or a 14b for $100. Both are in perfect functional order with minimal shaft play. With my goals in mind, do you think the 14b is worth the extra couple bucks? I know the T25 runs out of breath at higher rpms, but I rarely rev beyond 5.5k.

Help me make up my mind!
 
You're going to want the 14b with the 4g64. Spool will be ridiculously fast and with the t25 and that's not necessarily a good thing either with gas mileage. You will most likely always be in boost. As for your boost pressures it is going to depend on the stock waste gate and if it will even open that early. They vary greatly from one another.

The t25 runs out of of steam fast on a 2.0 and it's even worst on the 2.4L.
 
Quick update for those who shared their thoughts:

Since I only had a couple of replies, I spent some time talking to the seller and looking over all of the turbos he had on hand (3 t25's, 2 14b's, and a 16g) and ended up settling on a t25 that's in excellent overall shape. Yes, it's the whimp of the DSM world, however the seller seemed to know his stuff and agreed that while the other two models would be great if I were planning to track the car; the t25 was the best choice for ease of installation and day to day reliability since there would be zero additional modification necessary beyond swapping stock GS-T parts over and it'd wake the motor up a bit (which is exactly what I want).

@Black95TSIawd and @lasthope05 thank you for taking the time to weigh in on this for me. I definitely appreciate the input!
 
T25 on a 2.4, you might as well shoot for maxing that t25 out at 15lbs of boost. I wouldn't hesitate. You might be limited by tuning to less for knock depending on your compression ratio. The T25 will bang out 15psi all day erry day and be solid. Really hard to kill turbo. Mine I have no idea how its still doing just fine after the abuse it has lived through. (mostly before I owned it)

What oil will you be running? I would go full synthetic and only use VR1.
 
T25 on a 2.4, you might as well shoot for maxing that t25 out at 15lbs of boost. I wouldn't hesitate. You might be limited by tuning to less for knock depending on your compression ratio. The T25 will bang out 15psi all day erry day and be solid. Really hard to kill turbo. Mine I have no idea how its still doing just fine after the abuse it has lived through. (mostly before I owned it)

What oil will you be running? I would go full synthetic and only use VR1.

Goal isn't to really max anything out with this build, more to wake the engine up a bit and put a little extra pep in normal day to day driving, hence my low goals of 7-8 psi. Going from n/a to 7-8psi of boost on this motor will be just enough to make my daily commutes that much more enjoyable, while not risking overall reliability of the block as I'm keeping stock internals. If I get bored a few months down the line I may crank the boost up some, but even that is highly unlikely.

As for oil, I've been running Mobile 5w40 syn and so far the engine has been pretty happy considering I've got just shy of 198k on the odometer. I'll likely stick with that unless the extra ponies warrant a change.
 
Goal isn't to really max anything out with this build, more to wake the engine up a bit and put a little extra pep in normal day to day driving, hence my low goals of 7-8 psi. Going from n/a to 7-8psi of boost on this motor will be just enough to make my daily commutes that much more enjoyable, while not risking overall reliability of the block as I'm keeping stock internals. If I get bored a few months down the line I may crank the boost up some, but even that is highly unlikely.

As for oil, I've been running Mobile 5w40 syn and so far the engine has been pretty happy considering I've got just shy of 198k on the odometer. I'll likely stick with that unless the extra ponies warrant a change.

There is a good write up forced performance did on why you want to use high zinc oil in journal bearing type turbos I wouldn't put mobil1 in my turbo after reading it.

Perhaps the boost from 8psi will be enough, I would imagine that the block and internals is more capable though on the proper tune. My only experience is with DSM 2.0 at 15# and I think its about right on the money for what you get when the boost kicks in. I wouldn't dial less at all after owning my DSM, actually I am looking for a bit more and moving to another turbo- like you I want something that really wakes the engine up and for the application that will be the 14b for more cfm.
 
That t25 is probably going to hate life on a 2.4. It'll spool ridiculously fast, which may enhance the possibility for spikes, which may lead to faster thrust wear. I'd recommend porting the wastegate hole a goodly amount so you can control boost more effectively, especially at the low boost level you plan to run.

Honestly a 14b would be my recommendation from the start, much more robust turbo, just not as bolt-on-freindly to your particular situation.

Either way, it will probably work ok for a while.
 
There is a good write up forced performance did on why you want to use high zinc oil in journal bearing type turbos I wouldn't put mobil1 in my turbo after reading it.

Perhaps the boost from 8psi will be enough, I would imagine that the block and internals is more capable though on the proper tune. My only experience is with DSM 2.0 at 15# and I think its about right on the money for what you get when the boost kicks in. I wouldn't dial less at all after owning my DSM, actually I am looking for a bit more and moving to another turbo- like you I want something that really wakes the engine up and for the application that will be the 14b for more cfm.
I'm gonna have to check out that article. Other than a Chevy Cruze with a joke of a turbo on it, I have little experience with ownership of a turbocharged vehicle.

Hated that Cruze... Nothing but problems...
 
The T25 will be fine on the 2.4 at 8 psi revving to 5.5k. I wouldn't over thinking this turbo choice too much as you won't even be pushing the T25 to the max. I think you made the right choice for quickest spool and will give you that extra go go juice.
 
The T-25 will be great, it will be in boost more often which will minimize turbo lag which has been the one downfall of turbochargers since they have existed, look at how small the turbo on any modern car is, look at the K03 on the Audi/VW for example, those cars reach full spool by 2000 rpm which is perfect for seamless power output, this is a GOOD thing for daily driving, not necessarily racing but then there are tradeoffs made when building something for racing. Valvoline VR-1 is a great oil and cant recommend it enough, and yes its worth the extra money to have it, but its not synthetic, its conventional.
 
The T-25 will be great, it will be in boost more often which will minimize turbo lag which has been the one downfall of turbochargers since they have existed, look at how small the turbo on any modern car is, look at the K03 on the Audi/VW for example, those cars reach full spool by 2000 rpm which is perfect for seamless power output, this is a GOOD thing for daily driving, not necessarily racing but then there are tradeoffs made when building something for racing. Valvoline VR-1 is a great oil and cant recommend it enough, and yes its worth the extra money to have it, but its not synthetic, its conventional.

naw doggie they have full synthetic- I just checked I dont think I got the syn version last time I cant remember for sure. I can only buy it at napa

I suppose if you cant find the syn version locally the non syn version is probably fine too. Zinc is the key. I did way too much research on zinc after reading this PDF.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/subaru_oil/Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf

Buy Online:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/VAN679082

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Valv...Jt-bywW-lHz_et8XmqX0hltzNTRJ2YxhoCmKAQAvD_BwE

found this posted elsewhere by Valvoline:
We are not able to join the forums, but we can give you the answer you need, or maybe would like to add to the forum. Our VR1 Racing Oil is NOT just an "ordinary new car street oil" as listed. Our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oils can be used in street applications, but still contains the high amount of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorus). This information can be found on our Valvoline.com website, under the section where it lists the Racing Oils. We have also added the product information sheet for both the VR1 and the "Not Street Legal" Racing oils. As you will see, Valvoline still contains 1200 ppm Zinc content in our regular conventional VR1. It does carry the API Service "SM" rating, but this oil was not made to change for emission standards due to it not being a "ordinary street car oil." This information clearly states the amount of both the Zinc and Phosphorus levels in the oils. The main difference between the the "Not Street Legal" racing oil, or commonly known as Conventional and Synthetic Racing oils, and the VR1 is the Calcium content. Calcium levels are higher in the NSL oils, compared to the VR1, and the NSL oil is only recommended for 500 mile oil changes, while the VR1 is a 3 month/3,000 mile oil.
Valvoline stands behind the flat-tappet and more aggressive type cam applications 100% with our Valvoline VR1 and NSL Racing oils. The proof is in our product information sheets, which are online for the viewing as well.
Thank you,
Valvoline



Info sheet on VR1 SYN - just looked that over higher zinc/phosphorus in the 20w50 VS 10w30 interesting!!! synthetic only stay away from the lower zinc 10w30 SYN oil.
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...2d889bd3/8213a6c1-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

Info sheet on VR1 NON SYN
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publ...2d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

The viscosity goes really high at 40*c What am I looking at that cant be right can it?

The big deal with all the oils lowering zinc was to make the catalytic converter happy and not clog up, but the side effect was harming high performance engines and turbos.
 
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^^^ This is all well known information that we have talked about for years on these forums, havent ever come across the synthetic version and wouldnt recommend it anyway, synthetics tend to bring on leaks at seals where they didnt leak before, plus its obviously about as easy to find as a unicorn in a hayfield.
 

Going to play devil's advocate on this one just to cover all of my bases, don't take this as me shutting out the idea of using VR-1 or something similar, I just like to look through every side of these choices.

The article FP put out seems to be geared heavily towards modified 4G63t 'race engines' pushing '100 bhp per cylinder or more'. While it would be pleasantly surprising, I just don't see a T25 on a stock 4G64 SOHC motor pushing anywhere near those numbers. In order to force thrust bearing failure, they ran 15 4th gear dyno pulls on a motor running 570-580whp and 3 15 second load holds at 5500rpm running 33psi. I, personally, would consider this a fairly extreme scenario. Not only will I be at least 350 hp shy of those dyno pulls, I will also only be running 7-8 psi and cruising around 2200-3500 rpm at any given time. My 4G64 redlines at 6k, I've hit 5000 RPM once since owning the car and considering I'm used to driving an SUV around on a normal basis (married with 3 kids here..) I don't see this motor hitting 5500 rpm for 2 seconds, let alone 15.

With that in mind, would the overall cost of VR-1 or a similar hi-Zinc/Phosphorous oil be worth it? I won't be tracking the car, I won't be pushing anywhere near 100hp per cylinder, and I won't be pushing the motor to it's limits.

Valvoline VR-1 10w30 - $49.94 on Amazon for a 1qt case Zinc/Phos 1400/1300 PPM
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 - $26.83 on Amazon for a 1 Gallon jug Zinc/Phos 1300/1100 PPM (this is what I currently run on a N/T application)

^^^ This is all well known information that we have talked about for years on these forums, havent ever come across the synthetic version and wouldnt recommend it anyway, synthetics tend to bring on leaks at seals where they didnt leak before, plus its obviously about as easy to find as a unicorn in a hayfield.

As for the Synthetic/Conventional argument, before stepping into my current career path, I spent 5 years managing a quick lube. I've had to sit through so many different lectures/online courses/company meetings covering the advantages or disadvantages of each application and I'll just leave it at this; I have no hesitation in running a synthetic oil in any of my vehicles. Old seals will eventually leak regardless of what fluid you put in the motor. Synthetic oils will always outperform their conventional counterpart in side-by-side comparisons for heat protection and lubricity. However, it's important to note, not all synthetics are the same and it's always important to properly address your specific application.
 
Going to play devil's advocate on this one just to cover all of my bases, don't take this as me shutting out the idea of using VR-1 or something similar, I just like to look through every side of these choices.

The article FP put out seems to be geared heavily towards modified 4G63t 'race engines' pushing '100 bhp per cylinder or more'. While it would be pleasantly surprising, I just don't see a T25 on a stock 4G64 SOHC motor pushing anywhere near those numbers. In order to force thrust bearing failure, they ran 15 4th gear dyno pulls on a motor running 570-580whp and 3 15 second load holds at 5500rpm running 33psi. I, personally, would consider this a fairly extreme scenario. Not only will I be at least 350 hp shy of those dyno pulls, I will also only be running 7-8 psi and cruising around 2200-3500 rpm at any given time. My 4G64 redlines at 6k, I've hit 5000 RPM once since owning the car and considering I'm used to driving an SUV around on a normal basis (married with 3 kids here..) I don't see this motor hitting 5500 rpm for 2 seconds, let alone 15.

With that in mind, would the overall cost of VR-1 or a similar hi-Zinc/Phosphorous oil be worth it? I won't be tracking the car, I won't be pushing anywhere near 100hp per cylinder, and I won't be pushing the motor to it's limits.

Valvoline VR-1 10w30 - $49.94 on Amazon for a 1qt case Zinc/Phos 1400/1300 PPM
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 - $26.83 on Amazon for a 1 Gallon jug Zinc/Phos 1300/1100 PPM (this is what I currently run on a N/T application)



As for the Synthetic/Conventional argument, before stepping into my current career path, I spent 5 years managing a quick lube. I've had to sit through so many different lectures/online courses/company meetings covering the advantages or disadvantages of each application and I'll just leave it at this; I have no hesitation in running a synthetic oil in any of my vehicles. Old seals will eventually leak regardless of what fluid you put in the motor. Synthetic oils will always outperform their conventional counterpart in side-by-side comparisons for heat protection and lubricity. However, it's important to note, not all synthetics are the same and it's always important to properly address your specific application.

You are perfectly fine with that weight oil, high performance or not. Most people on this board have no clue about oil and just always blindly recommend VR1 based on FPs recommendation.

The only thing you want to stay away from is 30 weight oils with an API rating of SM and above as that is where they limited zinc/phos levels to comform to EPA standards. But of course always research and check VOAs/UOAs of the oils you want to run first. With that said, almost all 40 weights and heavier HDEO will have high enough levels or ZDDP to do an adequate job of protecting wear surfaces. So your 5w40 TDT is fine.

Me personally, I like a stout A3/B4 oil in daily driver because of the HTHS and high TBN for extended drains.
 
Not completely blindly recommending VR1, It is recommended by the top builders for 4G63 engines and I like it because of the zinc content.
30 weight oil worries me in a turbo application even making low boost. Mostly because at extreme temps that it will be exposed to inside of a turbo its not likely still 30 weight under extreme conditions. It is prone to frothing under high rpm and thinning. Would you prefer a thick coating oil in a bearing if it starves for a split second or a thin coating? (I would prefer a higher viscosity coating) I found wear videos and data that depict exactly how zinc content applies directly to metal wear / how much wear vs protection. If you look into oil additives for engine break in its just high zinc, if you look at break in oil its high in zinc.

If only they sold 5w50 in the states...
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Data
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fbb9qtL-yWlzDPLzvxzpF01gRRtH8fKxeVtXt6HPpgg/edit#gid=0

I think 5w40 is perfectly usable, with the Zinc/Phos content you listed it sounds acceptable and at a decent price point. Didn't mean to sidetrack too much into this, just one of those things I don't want to see any fellow DSM'ers running mobil1 10w30 and then posting about having to rebuild engines and turbos. I see the 4g63 and turbo's in any form as a race application and I think oil protecting you from a rebuild is rather important.
 
Power wise, the 14b is the more capable turbo of the two. With a stroker you'll likely never see a difference in spool, so I'd go with the turbo that's capable of making slightly more power.

Rotella T6 is a good and inexpensive option for motor oil used in performance applications. I use it in all my 4G63s. You can find tons of actual oil analysis data on it online by people using in various platforms. Personally, I pay less attention to what the ads say, and more attention to legit oil analysis data (done in a lab) for that lubricant where it's being used by people actually pushing their cars. A Google search of "X Brand oil analysis data" or "X Brand oil zinc content" should give you plenty of good reading material from actual people who've had oil analysis done on their personal cars. You should take that data, and use that to make your choice on oil, rather than somebody's opinion...Mainly because opinions are like assholes, and everybody has one.
 
+1 for Rotella T-6. Ran it in both my 6.7 Powerstrokes when I was in the oil field. Held up real well with MANY hrs of idling, off road conditions and pulling camper 500+ miles to and from home and changing every 5k. It's a damn good inexpensive oil like @GST with PSI stated.
It's ultimately your choice
 
Not completely blindly recommending VR1, It is recommended by the top builders for 4G63 engines and I like it because of the zinc content.
30 weight oil worries me in a turbo application even making low boost. Mostly because at extreme temps that it will be exposed to inside of a turbo its not likely still 30 weight under extreme conditions. It is prone to frothing under high rpm and thinning. Would you prefer a thick coating oil in a bearing if it starves for a split second or a thin coating? (I would prefer a higher viscosity coating) I found wear videos and data that depict exactly how zinc content applies directly to metal wear / how much wear vs protection. If you look into oil additives for engine break in its just high zinc, if you look at break in oil its high in zinc.

If only they sold 5w50 in the states...
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Data
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fbb9qtL-yWlzDPLzvxzpF01gRRtH8fKxeVtXt6HPpgg/edit#gid=0

I think 5w40 is perfectly usable, with the Zinc/Phos content you listed it sounds acceptable and at a decent price point. Didn't mean to sidetrack too much into this, just one of those things I don't want to see any fellow DSM'ers running mobil1 10w30 and then posting about having to rebuild engines and turbos. I see the 4g63 and turbo's in any form as a race application and I think oil protecting you from a rebuild is rather important.

I didnt watch the video, but I can tell you that modified timken bearing test is BS test. Its a good snake oil trick for those who dont know about it. Also using a 30 weight oil in a turbo car is perfectly fine. You just need to know the specs of the oil and if it will fit our applications. Castrol Edge 0w30 european formula is one example of this. It is an API SL A3/B4 oil with a HTHS thats <3.5(good for high temps and high RPMS) and made for use in high performance turbo cars approved for use in BMWs, VW, and Mercedes. Its not your average run of the mill 30 weight and its viscosity rating is a borderline 40 weight.

Also I'm sure most people running a 50 weight oil arent even monitoring oil temps to see if the heavy oil is even necessary nor doing pressure tests/comparisons with different weights. Thats what I mean when blindly recommending oil. Choosing the correct weight for you application is highly dependent upon engine operating temperature. Thats why drag cars get away with running a 5 or 10 weight oil at the tracks. The engines are only started when pushed up to the box and immediately shut down after the run.

Watch this video and see how hair shampoo works better than engine oil. LOL
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For what the OP is seeking either turbo will be fine, and both are plentiful to find; I'd go with whichever is easier to install in your application. If you're planning on using a stock smic and piping for a 2g, get a t25. If you have a 1g pipes and smic go with a 14b.

I used to always use rotella t6 until I got rod knock on my Tsi. It was the original 20 year old motor so I'm sure it was coincidental, but since I put a built motor in I stay with Mobil 1 10-30 and a k&n filter from wally world. 5-30 in the winter, but I barely drive that car in the winter so she often has 10-30 year round. No problems so far. It's not a racecar so I don't see the need for anything extreme.

Actually I ran royal purple 10-30 for about a year when I found 2 gallon jugs on clearance at Walmart for $20 each. Not the race oil, the regular full sync RP. Overpriced but definitely cool looking LOL
 
Just another thread hi-jacked by @Murdertalon to talk about overpriced oil that most of us will never need.
Damn. I am more worried about your engine living and your more worried about not spending money on oil, I research and take advice from people that build engines for a living. Call up my buddy that has built many turbo engines and actually fabricated and built more cars than most ever will. Raven Fabrications ask for jason, then ask him what oil he uses on all of his builds and what kills them if they die (hint not oil issues) https://www.facebook.com/ravenfabrication

Your DSM is a race application in stock form, from a performance stand point and thick oil is cheap insurance.

Jason drove a mostly stock 1g for years and still has it that has only seen VR1-20w50 and it never needed a bottom end rebuild we both chock it up to the oil it has always ran. He is currently building a forged bottom end and sold his still working prior one with 120k on it and its still running strong (he regrets this decision). I am not saying you cant use other oil, or that other oil might not work just as well. I am saying that research points to 10w30 in lots of peoples opinions that know way more than I do about these engines is too thin and zinc / ZDDP content matters for our journal bearing type turbos. I have yet to have an oil related failure or any turbo issues I have had my DSM for 5 years. I care more about the engine than you do if your content with running 10w30. That is my opinion. I would rather see more 4G63 on the road and less ripped apart in garages. My car is at 120k+ and has no bottom end issues. Is a race engine with journal bearing turbo as easy on oil viscosity and wear as a daily driver 4cyl that you would recomend 10w30 in? It seems illogical.

Rules I fallow religiously:
Winter - shut off fuel pump, crank car twice (3 sec shot) then turn on fuel pump
Never get into heavy boost until operating temp
Always 20w50 and a mitsubishi oil filter
Always start car without using clutch
 
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Damn. I am more worried about your engine living and your more worried about not spending money on oil, I research and take advice from people that build engines for a living. Call up my buddy that has built many turbo engines and actually fabricated and built more cars than most ever will. Raven Fabrications ask for jason, then ask him what oil he uses on all of his builds and what kills them if they die (hint not oil issues) https://www.facebook.com/ravenfabrication

Mmm my engine runs just fine with 156K on it. Never had it open. How does yours run?

From your profile: "Its been wrecked at least once I know of and blown up twice. :) gotta love DSM's "

You know what kills engines? Not doing maintenance, neglecting tuning and ignoring knock.

I'm not calling anyone's "buddy" to get into a discussion about something that is very well documented. High zinc oils are for flat tappet or solid lifters. We don't have either of those stock. If you have an actual race car that sees actual track time, go for the 20W50. For every day driving, it is too thick and not necessary.

Your DSM is a race application in stock form, from a performance stand point and thick oil is cheap insurance.

And no, no it isn't. It is a very stock application in very stock form without modifications.

All this too say, IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT OIL OPEN AN OIL THREAD.

This is like the 7th time you have high jacked a thread to talk about your VR1 magic drink.
 
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