What do the experts think

Kringle · Oct 26, 2016

Gentlemen and Ladies that have a bit of tuning experience i would like your opinion or guidence on something. So i bought a 1g about 3 months back and have been working on getting the car on the road. Anyway, the guy i bought it from said it was his friends car and he was helping him tune it when the guy lost interest in the car. I don't know a lot about tuning but i do know that if the guy was tuning it he was gonna have a hell of a time after all the problems i fixed. So heres my thing, should I:

A) Return the ECU to a stock tune and start over with tuning (got a small handle on it and am trying to learn more about it)
B) Continue where the guy left off since all the "extras" are already in ECM live

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated, Thank You

Kringle · Oct 28, 2016

and here is my new idle. i foresee bigger injectors in my future, thought these were 950's but I'm thinking they are not.

Kringle · Oct 28, 2016

sorry here it is

jim95redgsx · Oct 28, 2016

I just took a quick look a your cruise log in Post #50. I noticed a couple of things that stood out. During the first 15 seconds of the log, you're at idle but your Front O2 is not ramping up and down and is reading a constant 0.04 volts. This is keeping you from going into Closed Loop. This a sign of running too lean (maybe your wideband is accurate. Does the logged value match the gauge?).

If you really have 950 injectors, your Global Fuel is off (you're set up for 865cc injectors). Your Global for 950's should be around -52%. This should make you run rich (not lean). I noticed in your last idle log that you richened up your Global to -44%. This got your Front O2 ramping up and down and put you in Closed Loop.

One explanation for this (if you really do have 950cc injectors) is your MAFComp settings. You're pulling a lot of airflow out (22%-35%) which also pulls out fuel. While it's possible to get the engine running well with rich Global and decreased airflow settings, It's far better to get the airflow readings accurate. The ECU uses the airflow reading to determine which fuel and timing maps to use.

I would try an experiment. Set your Global Fuel to -52% and zero out your MAFComp settings (for now) and post another log.

Another thing that I noticed in that cruise log, is that while you're decelerating @ around 285 seconds, your TPS stays at 2%, your idle switch doesn't turn off and you stay in Closed Loop. This is usually caused by not enough slack in the throttle cable at idle. The throttle cable casing expands with underhood heat more than the cable itself. This pulls the throttle open slightly when it gets hot. The solution is to give the throttle cable more slack at idle.

Good luck,
Jim

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

jim95redgsx said:
I just took a quick look a your cruise log in Post #50. I noticed a couple of things that stood out. During the first 15 seconds of the log, you're at idle but your Front O2 is not ramping up and down and is reading a constant 0.04 volts. This is keeping you from going into Closed Loop. This a sign of running too lean (maybe your wideband is accurate. Does the logged value match the gauge?).

If you really have 950 injectors, your Global Fuel is off (you're set up for 865cc injectors). Your Global for 950's should be around -52%. This should make you run rich (not lean). I noticed in your last idle log that you richened up your Global to -44%. This got your Front O2 ramping up and down and put you in Closed Loop.

One explanation for this (if you really do have 950cc injectors) is your MAFComp settings. You're pulling a lot of airflow out (22%-35%) which also pulls out fuel. While it's possible to get the engine running well with rich Global and decreased airflow settings, It's far better to get the airflow readings accurate. The ECU uses the airflow reading to determine which fuel and timing maps to use.

I would try an experiment. Set your Global Fuel to -52% and zero out your MAFComp settings (for now) and post another log.

Another thing that I noticed in that cruise log, is that while you're decelerating @ around 285 seconds, your TPS stays at 2%, your idle switch doesn't turn off and you stay in Closed Loop. This is usually caused by not enough slack in the throttle cable at idle. The throttle cable casing expands with underhood heat more than the cable itself. This pulls the throttle open slightly when it gets hot. The solution is to give the throttle cable more slack at idle.

Good luck,
Jim

ok that makes sense i though it was the O2 warming up cause it eventually goes into closed loop but ill definitely look into it. Im going to pull my injectors out again today and double check there size. I though they were FIC950's when i looked at the part number and that what was in the tune when i bought the car so i set it to -53ish for global and 330 for dead time. But at idle my fuel trims were way off ill post a log later and show you what i mean. but LTFT low was at like 12% if not higher and my STFT was at like 5%. So i either don't have 950's or went about tuning the wrong way. As for the throttle cable ill loosen it up some more. I'm almost in only in the middle of the bracket so ill loosen and up some more. I was wondering why my throttle was sticking at 1% but the explanation you gave kind of makes sense

So in short I'm way off on my idle and cruise tune, that sucks, but ill work on it again today.

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=405892
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/tuning-with-ecmlink-v3.448002/

are these an ok rule of thumb to follow for tuning?

19gsx91 · Oct 29, 2016

The one that c2ypt1c posted up is the one that I follow so yeah I'd go with it

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

ok so i pulled my injectors and now I'm confused. They have a FIC p/n# of 125-0950 etch on the side but on the neck of the injector is a delphi p/n# of 17113744 which is a 1000cc injector?

so now that i have conflicting numbers what should i put in on the fuel tab?

jim95redgsx · Oct 29, 2016

Use 950cc. When FIC selects a matched set of injectors, they could be using Delphi 1000cc injectors that actually flow less than 1000cc. No injector flows exactly what it's rated at. That's why you want a matched set. FIC could also be using that same Delphi 1000cc injector in a matched set of 1050cc if they flow more than 1000cc.

Jim

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

POS car for sale....kidding. well went to mess with it today and now it won't stay in closed loop and my front o2 dosent change voltage at all when it is in closed loop. The wide band is way leaner then it should be, engine temps are ok but she runs way lean. gonna swap out the front o2 with another one and see if that helps.

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

Well i finally got fed up and came to the conclusion that all my issue have to be from a leak somewhere. So i broke out the carb cleaner and went to town. When i sprayed it at the #1 injector my RPM's went up so i order some new seat seals and while i was at it order some new o-rings as well. i have a 92 non turbo that ill pull the used ones off of and see if there usable and if it help in the mean time. Also, decided to pick up a intake manifold gasket that ill put in tonight as well just in case its leaking too. Sorry i honestly though i fixed all the leaks, but ill update you with the results in a bit if there is any change in my situation.

Kringle · Oct 29, 2016

Alright new intake manifold gasket is in, wish me luck! The old fuel injector seat seals looked ok so i just put them back, guess the leak wasn't from where i though. We shall see.

Kringle · Oct 30, 2016

@jim95redgsx
Alright so HUGE progress was made last night and i think i fixed all my issues, things are looking really good (to me anyway). I ended up using the settings for PTE 1000cc injectors, it seemed to like that more. Ill post the 2 logs i got, the first is with no changes what so ever and the second is with the changes I've made. I think i need to adjust my TPS a little bit cause the throttle will bounce in the .65 area every once in a while, and my throttle cable is way loose. I wasn't able to get my airflowperrev to .28, but i was reading and since i have a slightly aggressive cam and ported head I came to the conclusion that .31 is ok cause my fuel tables get way messed up if i try to go any lower. On a side note i think i need to upgrade my cooling system as well because my temps creep up way high at idle sitting in my garage.

jim95redgsx · Oct 30, 2016

OK, those logs do look good.

PTE 1000cc injectors are the same Delphi injectors as FIC 950cc injectors. PTE just rates them at 50 psi base fuel pressure while FIC rates them at 43.5 psi fuel pressure.

The fact that you had to lean out your Global and MAFComp to get your fuel trims in line would lead me to believe that you are experiencing FPR overrun at idle with an upgraded fuel pump. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge and/or an AFPR? Contrary to popular belief and advice, an AFPR is NOT a cure for FPR overrun. Lowering your fuel pressure at idle to compensate for overrun will also lower your fuel pressure at WOT. Not what you want.

Leaning out your Global to compensate for FPR overrun will also cause you to run leaner at WOT. You may want to reset your Global to -52.7 and lower your MAFComp settings at idle. It won't hurt to do a little experimenting here. You could let your fuel trims compensate for the overrun (within reason).

And yes, cams will cause a higher AirFlowPerRev at idle. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Jim

Kringle · Oct 30, 2016

jim95redgsx said:
OK, those logs do look good.

PTE 1000cc injectors are the same Delphi injectors as FIC 950cc injectors. PTE just rates them at 50 psi base fuel pressure while FIC rates them at 43.5 psi fuel pressure.

The fact that you had to lean out your Global and MAFComp to get your fuel trims in line would lead me to believe that you are experiencing FPR overrun at idle with an upgraded fuel pump. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge and/or an AFPR? Contrary to popular belief and advice, an AFPR is NOT a cure for FPR overrun. Lowering your fuel pressure at idle to compensate for overrun will also lower your fuel pressure at WOT. Not what you want.

Leaning out your Global to compensate for FPR overrun will also cause you to run leaner at WOT. You may want to reset your Global to -52.7 and lower your MAFComp settings at idle. It won't hurt to do a little experimenting here. You could let your fuel trims compensate for the overrun (within reason).

And yes, cams will cause a higher AirFlowPerRev at idle. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Jim

yes i have a AFPR i checked the fuel pressure and it runs at 37psi at idle. Ill check it with the car off to be sure since em link has that cool fuel pressure setting, then re adjust my fuel settings for 950 injectors and see what happens.

so let me get this straight then:

Double check Fuel pressure with car off
reset fuel to 52.7 global and dead time to 330
Lower my MAF comp about 14%ish to make up for the negative fuels in my NoChange Idle post
But don't worry so much about airflowperrev since the cam will through that off

Does that seem about right. If i could give you a cookie for the help i would.....GOLD STAR!...haha

Kringle · Oct 30, 2016

Ok hopefully this is the final result and i can start tuning cruise. its only 30 sec because my temps started creeping up with out my fan on. Little warmer here today then yesterday night. oh and fuel pressure was a bit on the high side it idling at 37 so i assumed it was right but when i turned the fuel pump on with the car off it was set to 40. so now my fuel pressure is 35 at idle according to my gauge. but the 950 injector setting looks better now too

Kringle · Oct 31, 2016

ok so i got a cruise tune now and wow what a difference, i think I'm actually starting to understand this tuning thing a bit. Its actually not really all that hard if the car is running right. I still have that 1% throttle issue when coming to a stop but if i blip the throttle it goes away. I don't think its my cable it seem like its the pedal, not sure if the pedal on these cars has an over center spring. Haven't looked into yet but the pedal almost feels like its stuck at the top (0% throttle) then once i get it past that point its ok until i let off all the way again. not to worried about it right now as the whole interior is going to come out so i can put it together the right way and clean up the wiring.

Anyway here are the cruise logs if you don't mind taking a look.

oneslowwdsm · Oct 31, 2016

Disregard my comment if you did this already but checking your fuel pressure, it's supposed to be with the car running at idle and the vacuum line off the FPR, then read gauge.

Kringle · Oct 31, 2016

oneslowwdsm said:
Disregard my comment if you did this already but checking your fuel pressure, it's supposed to be with the car running at idle and the vacuum line off the FPR, then read gauge.

I did not do it with the car running, i did it with the car off but the fuel pump running. ill double check it with the car running with no vacuum just to be sure though. Thanks for the input

jim95redgsx · Oct 31, 2016

Your cruise logs look pretty good. Your fuel trims are good.

You're still overrunning your FPR. The fuel pressure only dropping to 35 psi, with the engine running, shows this. It should be dropping to around 29-30 psi, depending on your engine vacuum at idle. For example, if your idle vacuum is 16 in/hg, you should be at 29 psi. Here's the formula:
Idle vacuum(in/hg) / 2.03 = fuel pressure drop from setting with vacuum line off

Don't try to compensate for this by lowering your base fuel pressure. Leave it at 37 psi.

I, also, am not a fan of setting fuel pressure with the engine off. Battery voltage is lower with the engine off, which affects fuel pressure. This is somewhat compensated for by the injectors not firing, but you will be more accurate with the engine running with the vacuum line off and plugged.

As for your 1% TPS reading, you may want to slightly adjust your idle switch. This idle switch is the throttle stop and may be holding the throttle open slightly even though you're simulating the idle switch.

Jim

Kringle · Oct 31, 2016

jim95redgsx said:
Your cruise logs look pretty good. Your fuel trims are good.

You're still overrunning your FPR. The fuel pressure only dropping to 35 psi, with the engine running, shows this. It should be dropping to around 29-30 psi, depending on your engine vacuum at idle. For example, if your idle vacuum is 16 in/hg, you should be at 29 psi. Here's the formula:
Idle vacuum(in/hg) / 2.03 = fuel pressure drop from setting with vacuum line off

Don't try to compensate for this by lowering your base fuel pressure. Leave it at 37 psi.

I, also, am not a fan of setting fuel pressure with the engine off. Battery voltage is lower with the engine off, which affects fuel pressure. This is somewhat compensated for by the injectors not firing, but you will be more accurate with the engine running with the vacuum line off and plugged.

As for your 1% TPS reading, you may want to slightly adjust your idle switch. This idle switch is the throttle stop and may be holding the throttle open slightly even though you're simulating the idle switch.

Jim

i checked the fuel pressure with the car running and vacuum line off and plugged was still 37psi. Ive never had to deal nor have i heard of FPR over run. I understand what it is now, basically my AFPR can't dump the excessive volume of fuel its getting from the pump fast enough so the pressure rises. So to fix this i would need a AFPR with a larger return line. So i guess WOT tuning is on hold till i can get one or is something that only affects idle?

Ill back the idle stop off a tiny bit and see if that helps the idle % at all.

Vegas Smith · Oct 31, 2016

Just look up how to adjust the idle position switch. There a bunch of threads already on dsmtuners. All you need is a voltimeter. There is a guy selling some nice fuel equipment on the ecm tuning forums. You should also join those forums if you aren't already a member.

jim95redgsx · Oct 31, 2016

FPR overrun only occurs at idle. Some AFPRs are available with replaceable, different sized return orifices (AEM for one). I wouldn't worry too much about overrun unless you are maxing out your fuel trims.

No need to postpone your WOT tuning. Just start off with very low boost and keep a sharp lookout for knock.

Jim

Kringle · Nov 1, 2016

Vegas smith said:
Just look up how to adjust the idle position switch. There a bunch of threads already on dsmtuners. All you need is a voltimeter. There is a guy selling some nice fuel equipment on the ecm tuning forums. You should also join those forums if you aren't already a member.

maybe i should look into joining those forums.

jim95redgsx said:
FPR overrun only occurs at idle. Some AFPRs are available with replaceable, different sized return orifices (AEM for one). I wouldn't worry too much about overrun unless you are maxing out your fuel trims.

No need to postpone your WOT tuning. Just start off with very low boost and keep a sharp lookout for knock.

Jim

Sweet thats $200 i can save for something cool. haha. Alright WOT here i come. LOL

. ill post logs in the next day or 2. got a lot of crap to do today so not sure ill be able to drive the car

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