I’ve got a small claims court date coming up with the shop that butchered my car build, and since I’m not an expert in engine specs and such, I was hoping that you guys might be able to school me a bit on how to respond to any “excuses” that they are sure to come up with.

A bit of history: they had the car for nearly 3 years and at the end I pushed the car onto the trailer, put the “built” short block in the back of the Jeep, got most of my parts back, and had a different shop finish the build. The new shop finished up the project, but before starting the motor, they drill spun the oil pump, did a compression test, then pulled the pan to find metal debris. Prior to the rebuilt this first factory oversized / stock internals motor had suffered a crank failure (sheared in 2 pieces).

After pulling the motor apart the 2nd shop gave me the following notes regarding the build of the short block:

Findings on the block ****** *********** built were the following:

Connecting rods were not new, they were used Manley rods. Rod #4 had heat markings on it and had damage that reflected a spun bearing. The thrust on the rod #4 had a .014 taper ground into it and you can see where it was hand ground to fix the chamfer. Then they glass beaded the rods to hide the damage. Rod end cap #4 was tough to align the dowels and a quick check with a vernier shows rod is roughly .005" shorter

Block, pistons and rods measured in as follows:

Bore size 3.3655" (+/- .0005")

.005-.006" PWC (very lose clearance)

Cylinders within .0005" out of round (normal)

Cylinder bores were ball honed (crosshatch angle is very steep)

Deck surface was never resurfaced

Main line torqued to 60ft lbs ARP mains

Bore gauge set to 2.402"

#1 main .001" oil clearance

#2 main .0015" oil clearance

#3 main .0015" oil clearance

#4 main .001"-.0015" oil clearance (.0005" taper)

#5 main .001"-.003" oil clearance (.002" taper)

All main oil clearances were set way to tight

Found main caps were grinded down/butchered for some sort of repair attempt to block

The taper in the mains is probably from the machine shops mandrel having taper in it and not using it properly and not over stroking it.

Ring end gap was found at top ring: .019", 2nd ring .016", oil ring .036" (normal specs although I like to see 2nd ring with a bigger ring gap than the 1st ring gap)

Crank measured with less than .0005" runout (normal)

Suggest to send rods to Manley to confirm above issues with rods as a second opinion. The block is salvageable if repairs were done to it to make right but we used the other block provided to customer w/matching crank. The old crank is in good shape ready for use. The pistons can be reused in new motor build. The rods should not be used in new motor build due to needing a new rod and attempting to match weight to the other 3 plus all new rod bolts to stretch to spec matches or can exceed the cost of just buying new rods depending on how much balancing time is needed to match.

I have had the past five engines I have done set to .0055" piston to wall clearance and have not had any issues. Another was freshened up and ended up at .0075" piston to after it was put back together and lived for 3 years before it crankwalked at over 800hp through an auto.

I have been using .024" top ring and .020" for my second rings gaps for years and have not had issues. Having the top ring larger is not something new or harmful to how the engine runs.

BSE Delete? Did they use a grooveless stubby shaft in the oil pump or the oem one with a groove? Just something I would want to know if I were you.

You shouldn't have to deal with any "excuses" since you have all the data from the new shop on paper. They measured it and measurement tools don't lie. It sounds like the 2nd shop knows what they're doing and are interested in doing business in a serious manner.

bling5tatus said:

You shouldn't have to deal with any "excuses" since you have all the data from the new shop on paper. They measured it and measurement tools don't lie. It sounds like the 2nd shop knows what they're doing and are interested in doing business in a serious manner.

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I’ve got a notarized statement from the 2nd shop to go along with the notes above on my invoice to present at court, but I have no doubt that the 1st shop is going to try to lie convincingly and say that those measurements are perfectly fine for a 4G63. I just want to be able to intelligently refute what they say. I really have no idea if the clearances are too tight, too loose or what.

Obviously the crap cleaning job and all the butchered machining done is pretty evident.

Just to give an example of what I’m up against: they waited until the day before they needed to respond to file a 1 month continuance. They hired a lawyer, he left a phone message the day before court, I got it as I’m making the 350 mile trip down from Montreal, that his “witness” is out of town and he needs to postpone. Of course his “witness” is the guy who runs the shop. When I originally picked up the car they neglected to include things like the ECU, slave cylinder, most if not all of the fasteners, I almost left without the head, charged me for parts I originally brought in, accused me of stealing back parts I brought in.

Teezy said:

BSE Delete? Did they use a grooveless stubby shaft in the oil pump or the oem one with a groove? Just something I would want to know if I were you.

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They did the Balance shaft delete, not sure what stub shaft they used in the oil pump.

Shame its hard to find an honest shop these days. Good luck to you, dude.


Do you have pictures of what the car looked like when you picked it up? Cant you simply show that you paid for XYZ parts and labor, but this is what you got out of it?

Get the measurements and tolerances from the factory service manual and provide those to your lawyer. If you don't have a lawyer I would suggest getting one at this point. The factory service manual will say what is ok or not and it won't matter what the 1st shop owner "claims" to be correct if the people that made the motor say otherwise.

Black95TSIawd said:

Do you have pictures of what the car looked like when you picked it up? Cant you simply show that you paid for XYZ parts and labor, but this is what you got out of it?

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I have invoices from both shops, I’m not sure what liability the first shop has to reimburse me for having to remove & install the motor for a second time. I also suspect that they will outright lie regarding the work they did on the short block and say it was fine and call the other shop a liar. At least I have a notarized statement from shop #2, so it’s not only my word against his.

bling5tatus said:

Get the measurements and tolerances from the factory service manual and provide those to your lawyer. If you don't have a lawyer I would suggest getting one at this point. The factory service manual will say what is ok or not and it won't matter what the 1st shop owner "claims" to be correct if the people that made the motor say otherwise.

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This shop has been to small claims court before (lost both times), I contacted the last Lawyer who sued them. Bottom line, would have cost $1000 or more with out regards to the final outcome.
Hadn't thought about that, not a part of the FSM I've looked at much.

The PTW doesn't seem too extreme depending on what piston you are using. Most brands are going to making the piston smaller than the advertised bore anyhow. So if you want a .020" over piston it isn't going to measure .020" over on the skirt. It'll be a size that includes your PTW clearance at an actual .020" bore. This was the case I had with my set of Wiseco 1400HDs anyway.

What is the amount you are going after them for?
Build like that depending on what parts you supplied, could be anywhere from $4,000-$8K.

I don't think you will be about pursue them for anything the other shop has done for you. Best of luck with your court date.

DSM IN MN said:

The PTW doesn't seem too extreme depending on what piston you are using. Most brands are going to making the piston smaller than the advertised bore anyhow. So if you want a .020" over piston it isn't going to measure .020" over on the skirt. It'll be a size that includes your PTW clearance at an actual .020" bore. This was the case I had with my set of Wiseco 1400HDs anyway.

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They put in 9:1 Arias pistons, never got any measurements on them. What PTW clearance would a good engine builder use for a Race engine?

95eclipser said:

What is the amount you are going after them for?
Build like that depending on what parts you supplied, could be anywhere from $4,000-$8K.

I don't think you will be about pursue them for anything the other shop has done for you. Best of luck with your court date.

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The small claims court max is 5k, so that is what I'm suing for. What the first shop actually ended up costing me is more than that, but what damages I can actually prove and they are legally liable for will be up to the judge.

Three years?...

Vegas smith said:

Three years?...

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In all fairness they had both of my Talons there for a while, but it only took him a year and a half to mess the first one up.
It's not a good feeling having to spend $2000 at another shop to get talon #1 running right, knowing that he still has my other car held hostage with the motor out.

Seems like you had to much faith in them to have both your talons at once.

I would have @BogusSVO take a look at this, he is very smart with engine rebuilds

95eclipser said:

Seems like you had to much faith in them to have both your talons at once.

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My low mileage 98 had been sitting in the garage for a couple years with spun bearings after a couple T25 blowouts when the crank broke in the 95. Stock rebuilt the 98 motor and put it in the 95, race rebuilt the 95 to put in the 98 to go with upgraded turbo, intercooler etc. I had this shop do trans work before, and they were well known in the DSM/Evo community, or so I thought.

That seems backwards. Why didnt you use the 98 split thrust block for your built motor?

ileagleracing said:

They put in 9:1 Arias pistons, never got any measurements on them. What PTW clearance would a good engine builder use for a Race engine?

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It really depends on what type of racing you'll be doing. I seem to remember a local guy that has a 1,000HP G-VR4 and I want to say his PTW is .008-.0085". He drag races his car with occasional street use. I could be mistaken on the PTW. Honestly it is a mixture of personal choice and experience. I don't want to say (or suggest), that trial and error is the way to go either. Sometimes however that's how you learn. Again..I'm not saying go run it anyway and see what she doesn't to make you decision. Hahaha

I'm sure someone will have a good answer for you on that side of things. I have no experience with those pistons specifically so I don't want to make a bad suggestion. In my opinion though .006" isn't all that bad.

I hope you get everything figure up!

95REGF150 said:

That seems backwards. Why didnt you use the 98 split thrust block for your built motor?

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The 98 block didn't really need any machining, just clean and new bearings. The 95 block hadn't crank walked in 143,000 miles, I figured it would be ok.