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2G Clutch issues... wont go in gear

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Galipso

Supporting Member
223
17
Aug 23, 2011
Tampa, Florida
So i've been dealing with this issue continuously over the last 2 years. Ive done lots of research on these forums and read a lot of discussions, none of which have helped me fix this issue permanently, only temporary. Here is what i've done:
  • Replaced clutch master cylinder
  • Bled the clutch system
  • measured clutch slave for travel
  • backed out the upper adjuster for maximum clutch travel
  • adjusted the rod to the pedal (over and over and over again)
i cant find that sweet spot that is suppose to allow me to push the slave by and hand and also allow me to go into gear. I continuously adjust the rod to find a spot where it will allow me to go into gear but now it doesnt even do that anymore. I dont want to pull the trans just yet to shim the pivot ball or replace the fork.

Fidanza flywheel, 6 puck clutch disc and pressure plate by XTD

Any suggestions?
 
I've had a fidanza flywheel surface get torn up quickly by a 6-puck. When the surface gets uneven it takes more throw to get full disengagement, to the point that you can't.
 
I had the same issue when I tried to use an XTD clutch in the past. It never disengaged right. Not sure why it didn't... But as soon as I put my Fidanza clutch in it fixed it. If you have not replaced the slave cylinder yet I would do that as well. Did you check to make sure that the clutch fork is sitting in the right position?
 
What is the flywheel step? Did you assune it was correct because it was new?
I did make this assumption because I assumed that when I put the new flywheel in and a new master cylinder the issue would be fixed so it wasn't until after installation did I learn about measuring the step.
I had the same issue when I tried to use an XTD clutch in the past. It never disengaged right. Not sure why it didn't... But as soon as I put my Fidanza clutch in it fixed it. If you have not replaced the slave cylinder yet I would do that as well. Did you check to make sure that the clutch fork is sitting in the right position?

My slave isn't leaking so I didn't think to replace it. I'll order it here tomorrow for safe measure. But you're saying it's the XTD that was your problem and after you replaced it it was fine? I'm kind of skeptical that's my only problem here.

I'll take a picture of my fork placement and measurements of throw tomorrow as well to cover my bases
 
Here is a pic of testing fork position and a pic of the fork travel. Caliper shows 16.5mm or 0.65 inch.
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I feel your pain on this matter. I've been dealing with it maybe a year and a half. First started with a bolt on the slave backing out and it bent the slave where it wouldn't engage no matter how much travel it had, which in the end was more than needed. I replaced that just to find out a few months later that the master was leaking into the pedal area along the firewall. Replaced it with an aftermarket unit just so I could continue driving. Never had so many problems until then. So after all the gear clash, grinding, and unable to shift period issues, I rebuilt my oem master. Still had the same issues, but not as bad. Made the decision to awd swap my spyder since the fwd trans was POS anyway that someone refurbished and didn't do a great job. After awd swap I shimmed the pivot ball, and that's how it's been driving all the way til now. It shifts decently, grinds aren't very often. I do still have a soft clutch pedal though. Here and there I have to pump the pedal a little to build some pressure. Fluid is full, but I should probably bleed it again just to see if that helps. Last time it bled completely, but I still have the soft pedal. No leaks anywhere and have a steel-braided line.
 
Just for fun did you check the slave diameter? That position looks god to me. To the right. To the left thats a problem. If I recall fwd had different diameters available. Worth a look. I also want to say slave piston is color coded red or green
 
By the pic it does appear that the fork is to the right more. This is going to give u issues with disengagement. Shimming the pivot ball would be the easiest aside from using a longer rod.

The fork is sitting more toward the driver side. This would mean that if anything it is over-shimmed. I don't think that is the issue however, because that is about where my fork sits and I don't have any disengagement issues.

Edit: Pauleyman beat me to it before I sent my post through. But I agree with him. The position seems fine.

I did make this assumption because I assumed that when I put the new flywheel in and a new master cylinder the issue would be fixed so it wasn't until after installation did I learn about measuring the step.


My slave isn't leaking so I didn't think to replace it. I'll order it here tomorrow for safe measure. But you're saying it's the XTD that was your problem and after you replaced it it was fine? I'm kind of skeptical that's my only problem here.

I would definitely have the step checked on the flywheel. This could be contributing or be your problem entirely. I made that same assumption back in the day when I put my Fidanza flywheel in and I luckily have not had any issues with the flywheel.

Replacing the slave is a good idea. I have had one before that sucked air in but didn't leak any fluid (not that I could see anyway).

Also did you compare the master cylinder rod length on your new one to your old one? I had an issue with one I bought from either Autozone or O'reileys I cant remember. But the rod ended up being about 3/4 to an inch shorter and I didn't have enough adjustment. Just a thought.

With the XTD clutch I'm not sure what my issue was with it. All I know is that it wasn't disengaging hardly at all. No matter how I adjusted it. I replaced everything in the whole clutch system including the fork and pivot ball. It was never right until I replaced the clutch with my Fidanza. Might have been something with the pressure plate fingers or a warped surface. If you do decide to go with a different clutch, I would recommend Southbend. By far the best clutch I have had so far.

I noticed on your list you only said replacing the fork. I would replace the pivot ball as well just for safe measure. It is only a 10 dollar part anyway. After that you should put the transmission back on and bolt the bell housing up and see if it even needs a shim. I have one washer from a stock head bolt on there and mine works fine.
 
Fork is way to much to the right. even though we only have a pic to work with, we can all immediately acknowledge this fact.
I second shims, But for kicks use a new ball if available.

Again, I would not add shims being that the fork is sitting towards the slave. Straight from TRE's tech tips:

Once the transmission is initially installed into the car and just bolted down flush to the engine, it is the time to check the position of the clutch fork. Checking it right this moment will save hours of hassle later!!! Take notice to where the clutch fork protrudes out through the square boot on the front side of the bell housing. Push the clutch fork over towards the passenger side so that the throw-out bearing is just touching the spring plate fingers of clutch. The clutch fork should be either in the center of the square hole or preferably just towards the slave cylinder. The photo below shows the clutch fork that needs a shim washer installed under the pivot ball.

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If the arm is sitting off center, AWAY from the slave cylinder you need to pull the transmission back out and add a washer possibly two. This will get things back in line. Do not add too many washers or the clutch fork will make contact with the pressure plate and potentially cause other troubles, such as breaking the throw-out bearing post off the transmission case. If you are fighting clutch adjustment problems on an existing clutch install, get under the car and check this out and don't be tempted into trying a lengthened clutch slave cylinder rod. The only way to properly correct the clutch offset geometry is by shimming the pivot ball. By properly shimming the pivot ball your clutch will work much better and your transmission will reward you with better shifts.
 
After awd swap I shimmed the pivot ball, and that's how it's been driving all the way til now. It shifts decently, grinds aren't very often. I do still have a soft clutch pedal though. Here and there I have to pump the pedal a little to build some pressure. Fluid is full, but I should probably bleed it again just to see if that helps. Last time it bled completely, but I still have the soft pedal. No leaks anywhere and have a steel-braided line.
So shimming the pivot ball, in summary, was your fix
Just for fun did you check the slave diameter? That position looks god to me. To the right. To the left thats a problem. If I recall fwd had different diameters available. Worth a look. I also want to say slave piston is color coded red or green
Slave diameter? color coded? where? this is entirely new info to me haha. By the way, i just ordered a new one from rockauto made by Exedy. Will after market be color coded too?

The fork is sitting more toward the driver side. This would mean that if anything it is over-shimmed. I don't think that is the issue however, because that is about where my fork sits and I don't have any disengagement issues.

Edit: Pauleyman beat me to it before I sent my post through. But I agree with him. The position seems fine.



I would definitely have the step checked on the flywheel. This could be contributing or be your problem entirely. I made that same assumption back in the day when I put my Fidanza flywheel in and I luckily have not had any issues with the flywheel.

Replacing the slave is a good idea. I have had one before that sucked air in but didn't leak any fluid (not that I could see anyway).

Also did you compare the master cylinder rod length on your new one to your old one? I had an issue with one I bought from either Autozone or O'reileys I cant remember. But the rod ended up being about 3/4 to an inch shorter and I didn't have enough adjustment. Just a thought.

With the XTD clutch I'm not sure what my issue was with it. All I know is that it wasn't disengaging hardly at all. No matter how I adjusted it. I replaced everything in the whole clutch system including the fork and pivot ball. It was never right until I replaced the clutch with my Fidanza. Might have been something with the pressure plate fingers or a warped surface. If you do decide to go with a different clutch, I would recommend Southbend. By far the best clutch I have had so far.

I noticed on your list you only said replacing the fork. I would replace the pivot ball as well just for safe measure. It is only a 10 dollar part anyway. After that you should put the transmission back on and bolt the bell housing up and see if it even needs a shim. I have one washer from a stock head bolt on there and mine works fine.

Im not shimmed at all currently but it looks like im over shimmed? so my fork position is fine...
I did compare the master cylinders when i swapped them out and the rod and everything was the same, actually it was an improved design IIRC. The pivot ball, fork and TOB are all on the list to replace now with the slave. THANKS!

Again, I would not add shims being that the fork is sitting towards the slave. Straight from TRE's tech tips:

Once the transmission is initially installed into the car and just bolted down flush to the engine, it is the time to check the position of the clutch fork. Checking it right this moment will save hours of hassle later!!! Take notice to where the clutch fork protrudes out through the square boot on the front side of the bell housing. Push the clutch fork over towards the passenger side so that the throw-out bearing is just touching the spring plate fingers of clutch. The clutch fork should be either in the center of the square hole or preferably just towards the slave cylinder. The photo below shows the clutch fork that needs a shim washer installed under the pivot ball.

If the arm is sitting off center, AWAY from the slave cylinder you need to pull the transmission back out and add a washer possibly two. This will get things back in line. Do not add too many washers or the clutch fork will make contact with the pressure plate and potentially cause other troubles, such as breaking the throw-out bearing post off the transmission case. If you are fighting clutch adjustment problems on an existing clutch install, get under the car and check this out and don't be tempted into trying a lengthened clutch slave cylinder rod. The only way to properly correct the clutch offset geometry is by shimming the pivot ball. By properly shimming the pivot ball your clutch will work much better and your transmission will reward you with better shifts.

But now here: Jakk220 is saying NOT to shim the pivot ball, and backing it up with facts LOL. WTF am i suppose to do with this ball. To shim or not to shim. Maybe just add a little shim?
 
So shimming the pivot ball, in summary, was your fix

Slave diameter? color coded? where? this is entirely new info to me haha. By the way, i just ordered a new one from rockauto made by Exedy. Will after market be color coded too?



Im not shimmed at all currently but it looks like im over shimmed? so my fork position is fine...
I did compare the master cylinders when i swapped them out and the rod and everything was the same, actually it was an improved design IIRC. The pivot ball, fork and TOB are all on the list to replace now with the slave. THANKS!



But now here: Jakk220 is saying NOT to shim the pivot ball, and backing it up with facts LOL. WTF am i suppose to do with this ball. To shim or not to shim. Maybe just add a little shim?

You will have to inspect if you need a shim or not after you replace the fork and pivot ball as stated above. If you shim it too much you will have issues as well. Except you risk the chance of breaking the bell housing if you over shim. Just look at the picture above after you mount the trans to the engine and see if you need a shim.

However I am standing by the fact that your fork position seems fine and there is another issue causing your problems. The other guys posting have it backwards.

I bet that your problem lies either with your hydraulic system or your flywheel step height. My guess is going to be hydraulic. Remember, new parts do not always mean working parts.

When you put that clutch in what did you torque the pressure plate bolts to?
 
i just checked my garage and i already have a Competition Clutch Fork and on it.. a new pivot ball! so thats taken care of. BUT, this new pivot ball has a nylon washer on it already? Should i leave that on? still add a shim?
 
If you need more reason to believe me however, here it is from jack himself:

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Edit: Just saw your new post. No, it is already shimmed and is new. Your problem lies elsewhere. Replace the slave, bleed the shit out of the system, and report back.
 
You will have to inspect if you need a shim or not after you replace the fork and pivot ball as stated above. If you shim it too much you will have issues as well. Except you risk the chance of breaking the bell housing if you over shim. Just look at the picture above after you mount the trans to the engine and see if you need a shim.

However I am standing by the fact that your fork position seems fine and there is another issue causing your problems. The other guys posting have it backwards.

I bet that your problem lies either with your hydraulic system or your flywheel step height. My guess is going to be hydraulic. Remember, new parts do not always mean working parts.

When you put that clutch in what did you torque the pressure plate bolts to?

No idea what i torqued this pressure plate to. Cant remember.

Im going to search for this step height measurement procedure and post results once the trans comes off, might take a week or so because im busy all week.

I really hope my only problem is my slave, but given i dont have answers to the rest of these questions... i need to find out. And while the trans is off, XTD is coming off, Southbend is going on
 
And while the trans is off, XTD is coming off, Southbend is going on

This is a great choice. Don't forget to replace the surface on that flywheel. The full face ceramic sprung disk and the SSX pressure plate will do you wonders.

https://www.tmzperformance.com/

I recommend buying your clutch from here. It is owned by twicks on here and he will take good care of you with your southbend clutch.
 
If you need more reason to believe me however, here it is from jack himself:
im familiar with all Jacks videos haha. Every DSMer should be. Im just trying to learn how my situation is going to pan out and what EXACTLY my problem is, and not what it MIGHT be.
 
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