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Crankwalked 2 motors within 1000 miles

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born2race

10+ Year Contributor
129
4
Oct 12, 2011
Wayne, New_Jersey
Hey guys. So I'll give you all the whole run down of the past 2 years pretty much. My car currently has a 7 bolt 95 block with Evo pistons and rods, Clevite bearings, polished OEM crank. So two years ago I finally blew my first motor having some fun in the snow. Ended up warping the head breaking 4 valves all that fun stuff. So I got the head rebuilt. As far as the block it ended up being pieced together with no name pistons 2g rods, different bolt sizes on the rod caps, & the crank had scratched and markings all over it, it was a mess. My mechanic told me it appeared the car had crankwalk in the past and the previous owner just threw something together to get it running. So my mechanic recommended building a new block but at the time I didn't have the money for that, broke college kid here :). I ended up buying a used block from a friend of his that had Evo pistons and rods with an OEM mistu crank for 500$. Balance shafts deleted, oil squirters deleted. No previous history of crank walk. He took the block apart refreshed everything & made sure nothing was out of the ordinary checked crank end play all that. So he put the motor together & I took it back to the garage and installed it. At the same time, my original clutch was at the end of his life so I bought a comp stage 3 clutch and a ACT chromoly flywheel to go in during the motor install as well, as per my mechanics recommendation. New OEM master cylinder and slave cylinder went in, using the RRE stainless still braided line straight from the master to the slave. Install went smoothly no real issues with anything. The first time I drove the car out of the garage, I heard a clicking every time I pushed the clutch in ( later turned out to be crank eating the sensor.) However I thought maybe the clutch just needed some adjusting or something, since I just got a brand new motor crank walk shouldn't even cross my head right? Wrong.. 500 mile oil change, you can imagine silver metallic flakes. Lots of them, sent the picture to my mechanic, he said it looked very dirty for 500 miles (I was running rich at the time so there was some fuel in the oil but looking back at it the silver is so apparent in the oil.) so he told me to run in again and drop it at another 500. But I didn't make it till there because it was obvious that it was crank walk, the clutch sticking when turning left the crank ticking when clutch being pushed in. Not to
Mention this motor had phenomenal oil pressure, due to the oil squirters being deleted & the balance shafts deleted, I was easily at 30-40 psi at idle. I was going to port the oil filter housing before all these issues came up. So oil pressure was not an issue. This time I brought my car to my mechanic, rather than just the motor and trans so he would have the entire car to diagnose the issue. He claimed the crank walked due to me not adjusting my clutch pedal and causing a huge amount of side load. I'll take the blame for that one if that's the case. The clutch did grab like right as you took the pedal off the floor. But since it was my first new clutch, I figured that's the way it was supposed to feel & my mechanic said that it should grab almost immediately off the ground. Since this was my first build, I followed his advice. However my argument is I am almost positive it did the ticking noise as I was backing it out of the garage, so the clutch had to put that pressure on the crank enough to make it walk the first time I depressed the pedal( I did not start it with the clutch pedal in, clutch switch has always been disconnected) so, motor number 2. He ended up using my first block, the original one I blew due to the piston to wall clearances being tighter with it. ( When I walked the first motor one of the piston ringlands cracked from the excess side pressure) this motor has the oil squirters still I believe, sourced another 2g crank and had it machined since the one from the other motor was destroyed. My mechanic assured me that he quadrupple checked all endplay made sure all bearing clearances were correct. Fine. And he adjusted my clutch so it should be perfect now. The only thing he told me to do was to change out the bushings in the pedal assembly as the only other thing it could be was perhaps the assembly itself was binding causing all the pressure.. Didn't sound like it made sense to me but fine it did anyway, old bushings looked perfect. So that's out of the question. Well now I did my 500 mile oil change & there's silver glitter in my oil again. I have a magnetic drain plug & it was covered with garbage, it had like a consistency of anti seize with metal shavings in it. I called him & he said it could be possible left over machine work and to run ye car for 200 miles & drop the oil again. Well I just did that and same thing, slight silver in the oil but the same sludge type garbage with metal on it at 200 miles. & im pretty sure I'm starting to hear the crank hit the sensor again when I push the clutch in as well. I'm at a loss at this point. Thoughout these 2 motor build scenario I've spent almost close to 10k. ( not all of it was motor work obviously, probably around 5k between the two motors). Everybody's telling me to sell the car but I'm so close to being finished. Is there something I'm over looking? The whole point of this post is to ask is it something else on the car we're missing or is it my mechanic? Whatever you guys need to know I can provide I have the invoice with details on end play specs whatever info you need just ask. Thank you in advance for the help.

First motor, 500 miles

Second motor, 500 miles

Second motor, additional 200 miles
 

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Is the rebuilt motor the revised 7bolt? with the different thrust bearings? That's suppose to help with crank walk and the side load pressure. I don't think too many people would recommend building a 95 block...

are you sure your clutch is setup properly? and there is no clutch pressure when the pedal is let out, and no pedal pump up from the master cylinder? that can definitely cause problems along with ruining the clutch.

Is it possible the oil passages are clogged in the crank? maybe something to check when it is all pulled apart.

But if it is 2 completely different motors, I would be leaning towards the clutch setup.

I've suffered from crank walk on a built 2.4L 6bolt. I know the frustration...
 
To be honest, I was in the same boat 2 years back and was getting ready to throw in the towel. But I believe my problems came from clogged and/or dirty oil passages within the crank and also out of spec thrust area as I opted to machine/polish my crankwalked crank twice with the same result. I used the same block, head, rods and still crankwalked on me, This was on a 97 block BTW. I finally got on ebay and did the unthinkable and bought a new crankshaft (http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Bolt-Forg...ymouth-2-0L-/201039279921?hash=item2ecedff731). I paid 189.99 for it shipped (I had to call as ebay has them listed for something outrageous). I received a Bnew crankshaft with king bearings, slapped it all together with my same rods (cleaned and re-sized), pistons, and head. Checked the clearance side to side play, the whole 9 yards per the FSM. Primed the engine before start and no issues after start. Im currently at 34xx miles since re-build and havent had a single spec of trash in there since. Ive opened up the oil filter every oil change to make sure and nothing. Maybe a new crank would help you out? same as a new mechanic IMO. Goodluck!
 
I have some new info about crank walk that has never been posted anywhere. in short some bearings from the factory have very small thrust surface. and some after market bearings arenet much better. but in your case you must understand a few things. factory engine that crank walk take 50,000+ miles to do so. so when your motor walks in 1000 miles you can consider yourself a lousy mechanic who was cutting corners somewhere. I know. I just had an evo 8 walk on me in 200 miles. my own fault. trying to save customer money. the best fix hands down in to nitride the crank. 7 bolts cranks are NOT surface hardened. doesnt matter what year. if its 7 bolts, its soft. failing that you need a crank that never had a worn bearing riding on it. and you need to clean entire oil system. or better replace everything with known contaminate free oil. this includes oil cooler, head, oil pan, etc. contaminents hide everywhere.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
Is the rebuilt motor the revised 7bolt? with the different thrust bearings? That's suppose to help with crank walk and the side load pressure. I don't think too many people would recommend building a 95 block...

are you sure your clutch is setup properly? and there is no clutch pressure when the pedal is let out, and no pedal pump up from the master cylinder? that can definitely cause problems along with ruining the clutch.

Is it possible the oil passages are clogged in the crank? maybe something to check when it is all pulled apart.

But if it is 2 completely different motors, I would be leaning towards the clutch setup.

I've suffered from crank walk on a built 2.4L 6bolt. I know the frustration...
The second motor I have currently is the one that I originally had, so it's a 95 block so no it's not the revised motor. The first motor I had done I'm unaware what year it came out of so I'm not entirely sure. As far as the clutch setup, everything that I can tell is within spec. When the motor got pulled apart the second time I sent the clutch out to see if it was warped or anything, came back fine, flywheel step is fine, brand new hardware on everything with the clutch tightened and torqued to spec, used clutch alignment tool. Shift fork throw out bearing pivot ball(not shimmed) all replaced. Master and slave are brand new OEM. The slave doesn't seem to be preloading the clutch at all, the fork or whatever is in the middle of the boot on the trans or close to it I believe I can double check. The pedal assembly was now adjusted properly and has the correct amount of play in the pedal. Is there anything I'm missing as far as checking the clutch? As far as dirty or clogged passages both motors were taken apart and cleaned so there shouldn't be any clogging. Both cranks were cranks that have not been machined yet and have not seen crank walk. Virgin 7 bolt cranks that were then machined & cleaned so those passages should've been clear as well.

How come you are deleting the squirters?

The motor that I have now still retains the oil squirters as far as I know, the other motor when I bought it had the squirters deleted. The previous owner was putting down more power then I was near so maybe it was just decided between them. If you wanna read, Magnus did a whole research on the squirters in relation to crankwalk if u wanna read here: http://magnusmotorsports.com/tech-articles/crankwalk-theory/

From what I can tell they basically say that eventually the squirters tend to hang open and drop oil pressure so they opt to remove them to avoid any possibility.

Did you ever check the thrust play?

I personally didn't check it initially. I was going to wait past break in and all that before I started going over everything... Too bad I never made it past that with either motor LOL my mechanic was checking thrust end play saying .008 is the spec. I don't have the new measurement when he put it together. I remember that the first crankwalked motor had .03 of endplay before it was taken apart LOL
 
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To be honest, I was in the same boat 2 years back and was getting ready to throw in the towel. But I believe my problems came from clogged and/or dirty oil passages within the crank and also out of spec thrust area as I opted to machine/polish my crankwalked crank twice with the same result. I used the same block, head, rods and still crankwalked on me, This was on a 97 block BTW. I finally got on ebay and did the unthinkable and bought a new crankshaft (http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Bolt-Forg...ymouth-2-0L-/201039279921?hash=item2ecedff731). I paid 189.99 for it shipped (I had to call as ebay has them listed for something outrageous). I received a Bnew crankshaft with king bearings, slapped it all together with my same rods (cleaned and re-sized), pistons, and head. Checked the clearance side to side play, the whole 9 yards per the FSM. Primed the engine before start and no issues after start. Im currently at 34xx miles since re-build and havent had a single spec of trash in there since. Ive opened up the oil filter every oil change to make sure and nothing. Maybe a new crank would help you out? same as a new mechanic IMO. Goodluck!

That's what we were afraid of which is why each build was a virgin OEM Mitsu crank, never machined & never saw crank walk. That was both times, then they were sent out to be machined & I'd imagine they'd both be cleaned as well. I always read and was told that OEM Mitsu cranks are the way to go as long as they weren't machined or
Crank walked already. eBay has them for 5k LOL so maybe if I decided to go at it again a new crank may be a better choice.. Definitely would be cheaper, I think in the end the crank came out to 500-600 after the initial cost and machine work. And these were two different blocks which were both taken apart and cleaned before install. I'll keep the new crank as an option. Thanks a lot for the recommendation. & as far as a new mechanic this guy has excellent reviews highly recommended I drive 2 and a half hours away just to go to him. I don't wanna suspect it's him but at the same time he assembled motors both times & the second time he had my entire car to diagnose. He put together the motor & did all assembly as well. So id imagine he'd check everything so my car wouldn't be back at his shop again

I have some new info about crank walk that has never been posted anywhere. in short some bearings from the factory have very small thrust surface. and some after market bearings arenet much better. but in your case you must understand a few things. factory engine that crank walk take 50,000+ miles to do so. so when your motor walks in 1000 miles you can consider yourself a lousy mechanic who was cutting corners somewhere. I know. I just had an evo 8 walk on me in 200 miles. my own fault. trying to save customer money. the best fix hands down in to nitride the crank. 7 bolts cranks are NOT surface hardened. doesnt matter what year. if its 7 bolts, its soft. failing that you need a crank that never had a worn bearing riding on it. and you need to clean entire oil system. or better replace everything with known contaminate free oil. this includes oil cooler, head, oil pan, etc. contaminents hide everywhere.
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What's funny is according to my mechanic, he went through 3 sets of ACL bearings before he decided to throw the Clevites in. Each bearing set had come defective with either the surface being not true or the bearings being too thick and caused binding when rotating the assembly. What does nitriding the crank do? I haven't heard of that before. As far as the cranks both cranks were OEM 7 bolt cranks that were never machined and had never seen crank walk. As far as cleaning my mechanic said that he had opened up and cleaned the blocks extremely well both times.. I don't believe that the blocks were hot tanked though and there was machine work done to the blocks before assembly.

That needs to be checked before start up I don't know the spec off the top of my head but mine was checked when we checked the oil clearance.

The first motor my mechanic had primed the motor by spinning the oil pump. He said he checked thrust end play before doing so when he was checking all clearances. As far as the second motor since he did the install he started it for the first time but I'd imagine he'd check endplay before starting. I know he checked it during assembly. He had to, I know he didn't want my car there again LOL if I do decide to do another motor I'll definitely be checking the thrust end play before start up. I believe the spec is .003-.008 but I could be wrong
 
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I've seen 3 main issues cause crank walk:

-Poor machining
-Poor lubrication
-Improper clutch adjustments

Now, when you combine any 2 of the 3 (or all 3), and you will probably experience a failure in 1,000 miles or less.

-Poor machining
It should go without saying, that improper tolerances will result in a walked crank. What was the end play measurement you machinist took? If he can't tell you what it was and exactly how he measured it, there's your first problem. Crankshaft end play on a 7 bolt is 0.05mm - 0.25mm (.0020" - .0098"). Service limit is 0.4mm (.016"). For reference: http://www.galantvr4.org/docs/1g_7bolt_4g6x_overhaul.pdf

-Poor lubrication
Again, tons of places this can go wrong. However, on a new motor, there's a few good places to start looking:
1) Was the oil pump new? If not, was it inspected and check for proper clearance?
2) When he "spun" the oil pump to prime the motor, did he actually verify it was properly primed and assure there was oil pressure before starting the car? The best way I've found to prime the motor is via this method: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/ho...h-timing-components-already-installed.286487/
3) Is your clutch switch unplugged? If not, it should be. Depressing the clutch on startup is a sure way to starve the thrust bearing every time the car is started.

-Improper clutch adjustments
How did you adjust the clutch? Are you using an extended slave rod or anything silly like that? Did you follow this procedure:
You must be logged in to view this image or video.

If I had to put my money on the real cause, it would be the person working on your car doesn't have a clue what they are doing.
 
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The motor that I have now still retains the oil squirters as far as I know, the other motor when I bought it had the squirters deleted. The previous owner was putting down more power then I was near so maybe it was just decided between them. If you wanna read, Magnus did a whole research on the squirters in relation to crankwalk if u wanna read here: http://magnusmotorsports.com/tech-articles/crankwalk-theory/

From what I can tell they basically say that eventually the squirters tend to hang open and drop oil pressure so they opt to remove them to avoid any possibility.
But then you arent cooling the piston skirts....

I'm keeping squirters and shooting for 850whp on the 6466
 
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But then you arent cooling the piston skirts....

I'm keeping squirters and shooting for 850whp on the 6466
@ op^
Crap, engineers developed oil squirters for a reason, one usually backed by alot of math and data.


Also paragraphs / spacing make it easier to read, rather than one massive long sentence.

You should be building the motor yourself. Otherwise what's preventing this from occurring again.
 
I've seen 3 main issues cause crank walk:

-Poor machining
-Poor lubrication
-Improper clutch adjustments

Now, when you combine any 2 of the 3 (or all 3), and you will probably experience a failure in 1,000 miles or less.

-Poor machining
It should go without saying, that improper tolerances will result in a walked crank. What was the end play measurement you machinist took? If he can't tell you what it was and exactly how he measured it, there's your first problem. Crankshaft end play on a 7 bolt is 0.05mm - 0.25mm (.0020" - .0098"). Service limit is 0.4mm (.016"). For reference: http://www.galantvr4.org/docs/1g_7bolt_4g6x_overhaul.pdf

-Poor lubrication
Again, tons of places this can go wrong. However, on a new motor, there's a few good places to start looking:
1) Was the oil pump new? If not, was it inspected and check for proper clearance?
2) When he "spun" the oil pump to prime the motor, did he actually verify it was properly primed and assure there was oil pressure before starting the car? The best way I've found to prime the motor is via this method: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/ho...h-timing-components-already-installed.286487/
3) Is your clutch switch unplugged? If not, it should be. Depressing the clutch on startup is a sure way to starve the thrust bearing every time the car is started.

-Improper clutch adjustments
How did you adjust the clutch? Are you using an extended slave rod or anything silly like that? Did you follow this procedure:
You must be logged in to view this image or video.

If I had to put my money on the real cause, it would be the person working on your car doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

I am not sure what the final end play was with this motor, I can ask and see if he remembers. I remember him sending me a picture where the motor was on a stand turned over so the cradle facing up & there was a dial indicator parallel to the block, so I'm assuming that's how he checked it.

Oil pump was not new, my mechanic used the oil pump from the very first motor which he said looked new. When the second built motor walked, my mechanic said he pulled the oil pump apart and cleaned all the contaminants out. He said he checked everything on the oil pump. With the first motor, that's the one he spun by the oil pump, I am unsure if he checked after. This second motor he built I am not sure how initial start up was done as he did everything this time.

Clutch switch has been unplugged throughout this entire experience, clutch was never depressed during start up.

I never adjusted my clutch. The first motor build I left the adjustment at the same spot that I took my old clutch out. With this current motor, the mechanic adjusted my clutch I'm assuming using the jacks method. He said my clutch pedal endplay is within spec and how much clutch feels now is how it should feel. Nothing like that, brand new Mitsu master & slave with RRE stainless braided line.

Yeah I mean he does change his stories with my car and whatnot, like I said he has no negative feedback from any of his customers & most of them are DSM's

So, not trying to be a dick, but after all this time and money wasted you still wanna go with a 7 bolt block? Why not source a good 6 bolt? I understand any motor could potentially crankwalk, but it is much less likely you will have issues with a 6 bolt and an engine builder that knows what he is doing.
I agree, I've been seriously considering 6 bolt swapping, my concern is I don't wanna swap a 6 bolt & then walk that as well if it is something with my clutch setup. Originally was building the 7 bolt because I needed my daily back & didn't want to go through a lengthy swap. It is definitely one of my options if I decide to go another round LOL I just opted to fix the 7 bolt each time because it appeared to be cheaper, but clearly not LOL

But then you arent cooling the piston skirts....

I'm keeping squirters and shooting for 850whp on the 6466
I agree. Like I said there are positives and negatives to doing it. Clearly Magnus is mentioning and doing it for a reason. & they're doing some of the fastest builds on our platform. I never chose a side, the previous motor I had didn't have them, motor I have now still retains them. Good luck on the build! Have been following your build for awhile now.

@ op^
Crap, engineers developed oil squirters for a reason, one usually backed by alot of math and data.


Also paragraphs / spacing make it easier to read, rather than one massive long sentence.

You should be building the motor yourself. Otherwise what's preventing this from occurring again.
Agreed. However when you look at Magnus's article they do have some proof regarding the squirters. Engineers also didn't intend on the 7 bolt motors crank walking LOL maybe they didn't see the squirters clogging up after 100+k miles or 20 years later. Or maybe it's all a myth. I don't know, just when I got the motor I found the Magnus article and read it LOL I wish I could build it myself, I was doing it because at the time I needed my daily back & I was in school and working with no time.. After this however I don't think I'm letting anybody touch my car again, this has been an absolute nightmare.

+1 on the 6 bolt. Go find one at a part out or something where you know it was in running order.
Yeah after all this I'm really considering a 6 bolt. I've found some JDM 6 bolt motors from an engine depot but I'm unsure if I should trust them. I've been keeping an eye out on tuners and Facebook for anything local.. My only concern is dropping it in and walking that motor too because it isn't a motor problem LOL
 
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Yeah after all this I'm really considering a 6 bolt. I've found some JDM 6 bolt motors from an engine depot but I'm unsure if I should trust them. I've been keeping an eye out on tuners and Facebook for anything local.. My only concern is dropping it in and walking that motor too because it isn't a motor problem LOL
But it very well could be. Your mechanic could be doing something that is normal practice for him but this motor won't tolerate who knows. As for the clutch, call up Tim at TMZ Performance and he'll hook you up with a great clutch. He might even have some good input as to why it may be doing what its doing.
 
But it very well could be. Your mechanic could be doing something that is normal practice for him but this motor won't tolerate who knows. As for the clutch, call up Tim at TMZ Performance and he'll hook you up with a great clutch. He might even have some good input as to why it may be doing what its doing.

That's the thing my mechanic specializes in dsms, the whole reason I went to him in the first place. Very good reviews very nice person, I guess I'm just the odd one out... And it's costing me. The clutch I have currently is a stage 3 competition clutch with an act chromoly flywheel. I sent out the clutch after the first motor blow to ensure it had nothing to do with the clutch itself and it came back as fine. The clutch flywheel slave and master all have maybe 1600 miles on them between these two builds But I could try giving them a call and getting some advice
 
I have some new info about crank walk that has never been posted anywhere. in short some bearings from the factory have very small thrust surface. and some after market bearings arenet much better. but in your case you must understand a few things. factory engine that crank walk take 50,000+ miles to do so. so when your motor walks in 1000 miles you can consider yourself a lousy mechanic who was cutting corners somewhere. I know. I just had an evo 8 walk on me in 200 miles. my own fault. trying to save customer money. the best fix hands down in to nitride the crank. 7 bolts cranks are NOT surface hardened. doesnt matter what year. if its 7 bolts, its soft. failing that you need a crank that never had a worn bearing riding on it. and you need to clean entire oil system. or better replace everything with known contaminate free oil. this includes oil cooler, head, oil pan, etc. contaminents hide everywhere.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.
Coupe you post some very informative information!
 
Yeah I mean he does change his stories with my car and whatnot, like I said he has no negative feedback from any of his customers & most of them are DSM's

In that's case, I'd start asking your mechanic the specific questions I posed to you, and see what he says. If he doesn't have good specific answers for you, I'd start looking for a new mechanic.

Make sure you let him give you the answers. Don't ask, "Yo dude, did you adjust my clutch with the Jack's method?"

Instead, ask, "Yo dude, how did you adjust my clutch?"

If he can't fill in the blanks, that's a problem. Good luck, man. Hope you get this sorted out.
 
Did you ever check if you had all the bolts that bolt the trans to the engine block? especially that one hard to reach 14mm behind the block? Someone here was talking about their engine walking because they forgot to put that bolt back in. I think maybe is "contributed" to the problem but nonetheless, that bolt should be there :)
 
In that's case, I'd start asking your mechanic the specific questions I posed to you, and see what he says. If he doesn't have good specific answers for you, I'd start looking for a new mechanic.

Make sure you let him give you the answers. Don't ask, "Yo dude, did you adjust my clutch with the Jack's method?"

Instead, ask, "Yo dude, how did you adjust my clutch?"

If he can't fill in the blanks, that's a problem. Good luck, man. Hope you get this sorted out.

Alright I'll ask and see what happens. Currently I'm waiting on him, when I sent him the picture of the drain plug at 500 miles he had me send my oil & filter out to him for it to get tested so im waiting to hear from him what the results are. I'm just so frustrated and upset I don't know what to do from here. Do I go back if he says he'll fix it? Should I just go with a 6 bolt should I try another 7 bolt built from somebody else.. I mean I still owe him money for this motor build which is also a concern now as well. I guess I'll wait and see what the tests say and take it from there. He basically said the oil test tells you what type of metal is in the oil and anything else that's in it. I appreciate your advice!

Did you ever check if you had all the bolts that bolt the trans to the engine block? especially that one hard to reach 14mm behind the block? Someone here was talking about their engine walking because they forgot to put that bolt back in. I think maybe is "contributed" to the problem but nonetheless, that bolt should be there :)
Yep! When I put the motor together the first time I order all new Mitsu OEM hardware which included all the bolts to mate the trans to the block so they should still all be there!
 
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