there are many factors that effect what timing you can run. There really is no clear answer. I have my timing tables setup so I see 8 degrees down low, climbing to 12 degrees at redline . This is the most I could achieve on my setup with a 14b at 20psi WITHOUT getting any knock. Your mileage may very.

At idle my car claims to be at 5 degrees right away but my Cas is fully advanced to even run my car. So once it idles we see 8-11. We haven't noticed any knock, no knock codes either. Just confused as to why my car is doing what it's doing :-/

are you setting up mechanical timing to 5 btdc with a timing light with the plug grounded?

These are a few of the readings we got off the scan tool. Before we start the car, timing reads 5 degrees. Once fired it jumps to 10+.

EvilGST said:

are you setting up mechanical timing to 5 btdc with a timing light with the plug grounded?

Click to expand...

Can u dumb this down for me? Not understanding, sorry!

96talonchick said:

Can u dumb this down for me? Not understanding, sorry!

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He's telling you to check your base timing: http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

The procedure for grounding the timing connector may vary, however, depending on what was actually swapped in with your 6 bolt motor. Just know the timing connector has to be grounded prior to adjusting the CAS.

yea sorry, I could have been more clear.

GST with PSI said:

He's telling you to check your base timing: http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

The procedure for grounding the timing connector may vary, however, depending on what was actually swapped in with your 6 bolt motor. Just know the timing connector has to be grounded prior to
adjusting the CAS.

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I know we have a full 6 bolt w/2g accessories. And I shall ask my husband if he did this or if he did it the way I think he did. (Just lining up the marks w/ engine out and installing it)

You got 2 kinds of timing. There's mechanical timing, which is lining up your timing marks on the cams, crank, oil pump line up with the engine off and at top dead center. And then there's ignition timing, you check the base ignition timing with your car running with a timing light. Just use the link that Gst with psi posted. You can't go off the scanner to check your timing. The computer is assuming the timing is at 5*btdc. If it's set wrong the computer doesn't know it and will still think it's at 5*btdc.

Well I'm wondering if my base timing isn't off. We have had issues with the Cas since day one. Also, when I mentioned the timing connector to my husband he had the "umm, ya talking about" look.

blktalon3 said:

You got 2 kinds of timing. There's mechanical timing, which is lining up your timing marks on the cams, crank, oil pump line up with the engine off and at top dead center. And then there's ignition timing, you check the base ignition timing
with your car running with a timing light. Just use the link that Gst with psi posted. You can't go off the scanner to check your timing. The computer is assuming the
timing is at 5*btdc. If it's set wrong the
computer doesn't know it and will still think it's at 5*btdc.

Click to expand...

Well I do know my husband did the mechanical timing and that is correct. He also did a timing light check and that was set to 5 degrees. However, no wire was grounded except the timing light. And my Cas has to be fully advanced to run the ca, so it's not at 5 degrees. If we put the Cas in the end neutral spot to where 5 degrees is, the car won't even try to fire.

There Is a diagnostics pin that has to be grounded for proper adjustment of the base timing. You will have to do some independent research to figure out what pin it is exactly as I am not familiar with the 2g platform, If I am incorrect Evilgst please let me know, .

Can't really ground out a 2g here's a helpful link...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/6-bolt-swap-timing-light-adjustment.416855/
search 6 bolt swap ignition timing, you can find more links
You can try to match the timing with the timing light to the timing on the scanner to get it close... from what I read... I have link so never had to deal with it...

EDIT:
According to post number 10
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/base-timing-question.436144/
95-96 do have an ignition ground on the firewall
But if you are using a 97+ ecu it won't help since pin 52 (the ignition grounding terminal) is blank on 97+ ecu's and since you are running a 99 ecu that won't help you...
Disclaimer... this is from information gathered from other threads while researching options for you... take it with a grain of salt

I recently swapped ecm's. I now have a 95 eprom and no longer rocking the black box. My harness and ecm r both out of a 95 gst. And we have tried running ecm pins factory 2g as it is now and also by repinning it, which it did not run very well. I wl inform my husband of the information that was just posted and go from there. Thank you!

How do I post a video or sound clip? We have it set the way we should have, with grounding that pin. And it's a harsh idle. Would love to post video or sound clip for ya to hear it

Very important typo/wrong info.

We are not advancing the timing, we are retarding it as far as the sensor will go. My motor turns clockwise, therefor if I turn the sensor in the direction of rotation-that is retarding it yes? If so, then my car will only idle and run fully retarded. NOT fully advanced.

Have you removed the cas for anything? If so you might double check it's not 180* out

blktalon3 said:

Have you removed the cas for anything? If so you might double check it's not 180* out

Click to expand...

So today this is what we have done. We checked mechanical timing again, grounded the pin and set it to 5 degrees via cas. Car died immediately. Adjusted cas and fired it again. Still saw wot spikes of 25 for timing which was better. Then to humor everyone I made my husband flip the cas. We noticed that the timing read out was lower at idle and at wot we see around 18. However, my car doesn't run any different. Cas is still fully turned to idle my car, car generally feels weak. We adjusted the fuel injector pins to what magnus had written up, I now run lean instead of rich. My afr has not changed though.

At idle my car sounds like it's got some badass cams, but it does not. Something is just off and we have no clue where to go now. It was brought up by a friend of mine that we could be a half tooth off on mechanical timing. However, we have virtually no one in the area who can look at dohc and I do not want to pay a shop to do it. (This is the first time my husband has timed a dohc, or even delt with anything other than bone stock dsm. And then it was a 420a, not a 4g63 swap)

Back to the basics. Do you know what your engine vacuum is while the engine is running at idle?
If I were to guess, I would guess that your car accelerates very poorly off of idle and builds up speed after the rpms come up.

My guess is that you are off one tooth on a camshaft. You can't be off half a tooth, it's just not physically possible unless you were to have the wrong/bad timing belt. Years ago, napa had a problem where there timing belt had on tooth more in total count than the oe belt and caused all kinds of grief and headaches for the unsuspecting.

Your car won't run without the CAS cranked all the way in one direction. That tells you something is off mechanically. Your husband should be able to pull the top timing cover, line up the crank at TDC and make sure the Camshaft sprockets are where they are supposed to be. If you didn't know, the crankshaft pulley can line up with the cam sprocket marks 180 degrees off and this is normal. Turn the crank another 360 degrees to bring the camshafts up to their marks. Look at the camshaft marks critically, they have to be perfect, not close. My guess is one of them is off one tooth.

After your husband verifies this, you can take the next step.

33 at WOT.
In order to run your car you have to max out the throw of the cam sensor.... Yet you are saying everything is in time....

You are electronically advancing retarding the timing via the sensor. Whats on the other end of the cam? Bingo, cam gears.

Its out of time as stated above. Prolly off a tooth or two.

Ironically this issue was a crank timing situation. Crank timing was off by 4 teeth and once that was correct this issue went away. However it spiked new issues that I have to figure out this season. Such as, why do I fuel cut at WOT at 8psi but not at 3/4 throttle?

Since adjusting the crank timing, we had to decrease boost because I was hitting fuel cut at half throttle anything about 8psi. Now that it was dropped to 8psi, I avoid fuel cut unless I am WOT. And still no way to tune it. Financial situation bottomed out as my ex-husband and I separated and now I just don't have it to buy dsmlink.

Dam...my ex got HALF of all my stuff and enuf money to buy a NEW car.
You will need a way to tune or you could hurt that engine when she fuel cuts. I didn't heed warning and my 98 TSI started rod knocking. Keep the boost way down and don't make it fuel cut until you can get some way to tune. I don't want the same thing to happen to you! Keep your head up and keep asking questions. You'll get there it just may take longer than you started out thinking.

1990TSIAWDTALON said:

Dam...my ex got HALF of all my stuff and enuf money to buy a NEW car.
You will need a way to tune or you could hurt that engine when she fuel cuts. I didn't heed warning and my 98 TSI started rod knocking. Keep the boost way down and don't make it fuel cut until you can get some way to tune. I don't want the same thing to happen to you! Keep your head up and keep asking questions. You'll get there it just may take longer than you started out thinking.

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I avoid fuel cut at all cost which is why I'm running low boost and never close to Wot . But I'm forged with a girdle so I hope it can take an occasional fuel cut ;-).

This year I am replacing the turbo with another 14b since my ex broke the one on my car and I am replacing the clutch since he destroyed that as well. As of next year I should be fully capable of dumping money into my car as I'm almost done with my nursing degree haha. Thx for the replies tho, it is greatly appreciated. Especially since I'm fluent in 420a but not 4g63 turbo stuff.

Maybe you can help nurse the 420a guys as they come in . Just kidding ya. All the help you need is right here from us all.