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Buying used parts is killing the aftermarket

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EvilGST

10+ Year Contributor
159
69
Dec 24, 2010
Beaufort, South_Carolina
This is just something thats been on my mind lately. I have been seeing alot of posts on Facebook pages searching for parts that are relatively cheap and or easily available from any vendor, yet people are "iso" these parts used. Now we all know the platform is slowly dying ( as least it seems so to me ) and I can't help but think the people trying to save a few bucks here and there is slowly killing the aftermarket. Now I totally understand trying to find used parts that are no longer available or very hard to find, but if people are not buying the parts that are available I fear manufacturers will stop making them. Not trying to start a war, I just want some opinions on this subject.
 
I agree. I bought all of my parts new because of this thought (and I like starting with a clean slate and not possibly diagnosing someone else's old headache).
 
I know this is a tough subject because on the other hand there are alot of people with used parts laying around. But I always try to buy my parts new for the same reason, I try to maintain a demand within the market and I know the parts will. This topic hit me the hardest after saving up for a ETS intercooler kit only to discover they recently stopped making the kit for the 1g DSM, they only now offer the core.
 
Although I agree, I often buy used stuff to specifically to help dsmers. For example, I have requested new oem parts on the classifieds and such, because I know there are a lot of dsmers who don't have a lot of money and who could use and extra $50-100 in their pocket instead some part sitting in a bag. However, the more stuff I buy the more I'm realizing that it's a better idea to buy new just because you know what quality you're getting. Hell, half the people you buy from don't even know exactly what they're selling in the first place. You buy it brand-new from the person then it's comes in dinged up and then they say "oh it was installed but never ran".
 
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That's a good thought, I think it just boils down to it being an old platform and us being cheap, 90% of my car was built on brand new parts and I still continue to spend money on new items, but I do shop around and quite often or I wait until a black friday sale if it isn't something I need.

Consider this, when the 68hta went on sale the dsm community went NUTS, they sold hundreds of those turbos in a very short amount of time, brand new, out the door. I think it's more of a situation where everyone, including me sits and watches for a good deal rather then pay list price, I'm still watching the classifieds closely for a built 1g awd trans because I can't justify spending 1500-2000 on a rebuild I don't need (yet) I think it's the same thing with the aftermarket, whenever a sale goes on I'm sure they sell a ton of them just because people will jump because they know the sale won't last.

In case you guys didn't know.. STM price matches anything they sell (or at least they did last year) If another site has the same part number for sale for 60 bucks less, they'll confirm it, and will price match it. Like I said, they did that for me a lot last year, I'm fairly certain it hasn't changed but I think it's worth mentioning.
 
Whether you buy new or used is a personal choice. When I make my own money, I'll put it where I choose to.

The platform is ageing out for one. Second, the counterfeit new part market put a massive hurt on vendors in the U.S. Since this market skirted serious patent laws, I tended to frown on it. Mostly the parts where junk anyways. It did put a hurt on Vendors in the short term but long term the real issue is a dwindling number of vehicles and a lower rent type of owner willing to spend less in many cases. DSM market has been around +25 years, that it's done this well is remarkable.

I wouldn't blame some owner after shelling out top dollar on genuine parts wanting to recoup some of their investment. Their option is what, throw good used parts away to support the new parts market for the next guy?

Smart vendors have diversified to other viable platforms. Buschur effectively jumped ship in 2003 as he saw the writing on the wall. AMS where mostly EVO guys and they bailed on that platform as that also started becoming a low rent game, they are killing it with the GTR and Porsches now.

The fact that ETS intercooler isn't available anymore is a business decision and a numbers game.
 
Buying used parts isn't killing the aftermarket. The last DSM rolled off the assembly line in 1999, and neither the name nor platform exists anymore. People had already been buying used parts for these cars for years, and it had little effect on the aftermarket support. The cheap knockoff stuff that's out there is probably what sealed the coffin.
 
Buying used parts isn't killing the aftermarket. The last DSM rolled off the assembly line in 1999, and neither the name nor platform exists anymore. People had already been buying used parts for these cars for years, and it had little effect on the aftermarket support. The cheap knockoff stuff that's out there is probably what sealed the coffin.


Vendors come and go, for example hks probably isn't going to sell alot of $700 exhaust systems for a dsm, however they will probably sell alot of $700 exhaust systems for a new scion fr-s. The amount a person will spend on an "upgrade" is directly proportional to the cool factor, and the vehicles value.

Ten years ago I had a dsm with all name brand parts, Tanabe medallion cat back, greddy type s, dejon tool intercooler piping, Hallman MBC, injen intake, greddy electronic boost gauge. If you were to buy those parts brand new right now you would spend more than the cars value just to have basic bolt ons.

You ever wonder why a random company in china would decide to mass produce an exhaust system for a vehicle that only sold for 4 years in the United states when they wouldn't even have acess to the car to even test fit a part for it? It's because ten years ago your name brand part was out sourced for production in china and when the factory met thr production quota they kept making their own parts using the schematics sent by the manufacturer. How else do you explain the ebay dsm parts market. I don't think there was a company in china that just randomly decided to copy an injen intake for the profit by selling a clone

Quality aftermarket vendors do not stick to a single platform, they make what they can sell.
 
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He'll there are still new intake manifolds coming out every year for my 1998 camaro with the ls1, it's all about supply and demand. They even came out with new 1 7/8 long tube headers for that car last year and there have been used ls1 parts falling out of trees where I live in texas.

It's all about demand.
 
I think there are a lot of factors. Such as knock off parts, ghetto modification, complexity of dsm platform, and peeps selling bad parts. So when something dont work right it becomes hard to sort it out and so it gets passed down to others and the word gets around. Price of dsm goes down and new peeps expect lower prices because dsm is cheap already.
 
Alot of good points brought up here, many I didn't even consider. And I can definitely understand how the knock off market has probably impact this more than anything.
 
Vendors are dropping support for the DSM platform because there's simply no real money to be made by tailoring to the DSM market. When vendors mark up prices to the point where they're actually making a profit, DSM people don't buy their parts. It's simple math, really. This is why most of the vendors who used to support the DSM platform have either moved on entirely or started supporting other additional platforms where there's no shortage of people willing to pay the premium for parts and services.

Without used parts, 99.99% of people who modify these cars wouldn't suddenly start buying new parts exclusively, they just wouldn't mod these cars anymore (myself included). Let's face it here, guys, people mod DSMs because they're cheap and easy to mod, and that's been the reason ever since the DSM debuted more than 2 decades ago. That's also the primary reason this platform has gained such a following, and also the reason you see these cars hacked up and beat to hell and back.

The DSM platform is on course to having even less support, and there's little any of us can do to stop that. However, we can all help to prolong it; but not by boycotting the purchase of used parts.

Rather, if we ALL bought our new parts from the supporting vendors below, that would allow them to keep the lights on, and keep parts on the shelves for DSMs. From motors and spark plugs, to oil and fluids; if you buy it new from a DSM supporting vendor, that's money in their pocket...And money not in the pockets of Ebay, your local parts joint, and China (so pretty much just China).

If you want vendors to stay in business, then give them your business.
 
Vendors are dropping support for the DSM platform because there's simply no real money to be made by tailoring to the DSM market. When vendors mark up prices to the point where they're actually making a profit, DSM people don't buy their parts. It's simple math, really. This is why most of the vendors who used to support the DSM platform have either moved on entirely or started supporting other additional platforms where there's no shortage of people willing to pay the premium for parts and services.

Without used parts, 99.99% of people who modify these cars wouldn't suddenly start buying new parts exclusively, they just wouldn't mod these cars anymore (myself included). Let's face it here, guys, people mod DSMs because they're cheap and easy to mod, and that's been the reason ever since the DSM debuted more than 2 decades ago. That's also the primary reason this platform has gained such a following, and also the reason you see these cars hacked up and beat to hell and back.

The DSM platform is on course to having even less support, and there's little any of us can do to stop that. However, we can all help to prolong it; but not by boycotting the purchase of used parts.

Rather, if we ALL bought our new parts from the supporting vendors below, that would allow them to keep the lights on, and keep parts on the shelves for DSMs. From motors and spark plugs, to oil and fluids; if you buy it new from a DSM supporting vendor, that's money in their pocket...And money not in the pockets of Ebay, your local parts joint, and China (so pretty much just China).

If you want vendors to stay in business, then give them your business.
+1

The parts market is shrinking, and that's inevitable. I left the DSM platform for a few years and when I came back the community noticeably dwindled. I'm glad that sites like STM still support us, and that DSMtuners is still somewhat active, otherwise this platform would be long gone.

I hardly ever see DSMs driving around anymore, but I do still see old Hondas around. It's not surprising that the market is not what it used to be, because the community is not what it used to be.

How many times have you seen a DSM for sale for a reasonable price only to never sell, then the seller would sit on it while dropping the price lower and lower but still no cigar. Next thing you know the car ends up being parted out for cheap and the chassis scrapped. This is where I suspect most used parts come from, and where most DSMs go to die. A lot of owners dump money into their cars but can never get back even a fraction of what they put in.

These cars are in limbo right now, not quite dead but not quite what they used to be. I try to support vendors as much as I can, but I still buy simple things like shifter bushings from eBay and am not ashamed of it. However, vital DSM-specific parts are invaluable to me.
 
I've been out of the DSM game for 4 years, and recently parted out my 97 GSX. Been in the DSM game since 91. I hadn't bought many parts after 2008 cause at that point I was just tuning and upping the boost and making more power with what I had. The stock 7 bolt was holding up fine and so was my TRE upgraded transmission, so life was good, for awhile.

The point is, how many parts do people need to buy? They make their purchases then at some point it tapers off to nothing. The DSM world changed a lot and many guys kind of outgrew it. Love the DSM motor, no 4 cylinder sounds like a 4g63 at high rpms. Problem is most guys grew up and moved onto EVO's or other platforms. The DSM world got "low rent", and that is what I didn't like about it as the DSMs were way ahead of the curve back in the 90's, nothing else like it out there. Nowadays the rest of the automotive world caught up and turbocharged/added AWD to everything, stole the very tricks that made DSM's such monsters. If I ever get a 3 car garage I will go back and get me a 97 Talon AWD and relive some fond memories doing a full restoration or something completely financially irresponsible like that. Right now, I have my hands full with my 2015 EVO and my 2005 WRX STi build. Wish I could fit a DSM in there too.

Had I wanted to stay in the game I needed a full engine rebuild and a refresh on the transmission but after +20 years in the DSM game I was ready for something new........that and my DSM shit the bed, so the decision was kinda made for me.

I always tried to spread my DSM purchases around (Forced Performance, MachV, ExtremePSI, RoadRace, ECMLink, and probably another 4-5 I can't recall) and supported the DSM Vendor community when and where I could. Never bought E-bay parts for my 97 GSX but people did and it's their choice. Market changed and like people say it's a combination of a few things: reduced vehicle value, different owner demographic, fewer cars/owners, China e-bay competition, etc. I think in the end the DSM marketplace will condense into the hardcore shops, very much like the beginning with HKS, Buschur, RoadRacengineering, ECMLink, etc. A few shops still service DSMs out of nostalgia but they have clearly moved upscale (English racing, AMS, etc.) to survive. That isn't exactly a bad thing.

That is how it is and we were lucky to have DSMs running strong for this long, damn near rivals the Ford/Chevy crowd. For now I'm leaving but hopefully when I'm rich one day I'll be back, need to find a rust free chassis and I'll be good.
 
The parts market is shrinking, and that's inevitable. I left the DSM platform for a few years and when I came back the community noticeably dwindled. I'm glad that sites like STM still support us, and that DSMtuners is still somewhat active, otherwise this platform would be long gone.

I hardly ever see DSMs driving around anymore, but I do still see old Hondas around. It's not surprising that the market is not what it used to be, because the community is not what it used to be.

How many times have you seen a DSM for sale for a reasonable price only to never sell, then the seller would sit on it while dropping the price lower and lower but still no cigar. Next thing you know the car ends up being parted out for cheap and the chassis scrapped. This is where I suspect most used parts come from, and where most DSMs go to die. A lot of owners dump money into their cars but can never get back even a fraction of what they put in.

These cars are in limbo right now, not quite dead but not quite what they used to be. I try to support vendors as much as I can, but I still buy simple things like shifter bushings from eBay and am not ashamed of it. However, vital DSM-specific parts are invaluable to me.

Personally, I think the community is better than it ever has been. I could link you to nearly 20 QUALITY builds by average guys right now. I think that's because the quality of parts, resources, and support for the DSM platform are also better than they've ever been. Looking back to just 5 years ago, the aftermarket has come a long way. We may have vendors dropping off the map, but that has by no means left a large enough void to really affect DSM guys building nice cars. Now, I don't think that will hold true forever if the current trends stay their course.

As the quantity of DSMs and owners dwindle, the quality of the remaining builds will get better and better. That's because all the bandwagon assholes trying to go fast for free will have either died off or moved on. Eventually, the majority of the remaining community will be the purist DSM enthusiasts, who love this platform for what it is, and not just for how fast it can go on an Ebay turbo.

Lastly, so long as these cars are cheap to mod, there will be cheap ass owners who mod them: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/cheap-dsmers.499398/page-3#post-153562046
 
Personally, I think the community is better than it ever has been. I could link you to nearly 20 QUALITY builds by average guys right now. I think that's because the quality of parts, resources, and support for the DSM platform are also better than they've ever been. Looking back to just 5 years ago, the aftermarket has come a long way. We may have vendors dropping off the map, but that has by no means left a large enough void to really affect DSM guys building nice cars. Now, I don't think that will hold true forever if the current trends stay their course.

As the quantity of DSMs and owners dwindle, the quality of the remaining builds will get better and better. That's because all the bandwagon assholes trying to go fast for free will have either died off or moved on. Eventually, the majority of the remaining community will be the purist DSM enthusiasts, who love this platform for what it is, and not just for how fast it can go on an Ebay turbo.

Lastly, so long as these cars are cheap to mod, there will be cheap ass owners who mod them: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/cheap-dsmers.499398/page-3#post-153562046

When I made that comment about the community I meant the popularity of the platform, not the quality of the builds. You're arguing quality > quantity, which is fine, but it was still nice to spot the odd DSM driving around locally.

I do respect a lot of the builds as of late, as well as the track cars that continue to break records, they're prime examples of the potential of this platform. But I'd still argue that having more popularity would be a good thing in the long run, only because I don't want to see these cars disappear entirely. Maybe the DSM scene in your area is different, but up here it's practically nonexistent.
 
I have personally junked OEM parts because I couldn't even give them away. I have junked everything from a tcase to fuel rails and even a 94 chassis.

Looking back, I wish I didn't junk out any of that because parts cars and crushed DSMs make me sad. I'm on my 4th one now and only have it as a nostalgic piece. I'd part with it for a few grand at this point but I'd always be grateful for the memories, friends and knowledge I've gained with every 10mm socket I've lost.

Now on the other hand, I've built a 1983 Ford Ranger with a SBF. While you can buy swap kits, I wanted it my way. Most of it is one offs I had to make in my 1 car garage at 1am while my son was sleeping. This is where I see my TSI and the community moving to.
 
But I'd still argue that having more popularity would be a good thing in the long run, only because I don't want to see these cars disappear entirely. Maybe the DSM scene in your area is different, but up here it's practically nonexistent.

Nope, pretty much the same in my area. DSM sightings are few and far between.

I don't think that's because the platform is getting any more or less popular, though. I think that's simply a result of the platform aging. As these cars fall off the road, they're going to junkyards, not somebody's garage for restoration and/or repair. As the amount of cars decrease, so does the frequency of seeing them being driven out and about. Again, just simple math working against us.

Due to the age of the platform, the average Joe is no longer driving a DSM. The ones that are still on the road are mostly driven by guys like you and me...People who are willing to dump more time and money into a DSM than it's physically worth. The rest of the world just moves on, and buys a new car.
 
While it's true the level of build experience is fairly deep in the DSM world, and that can be attributed to the shear number of years the platform and owners have been around, it's also true there are a lot of inexperienced/cheap owners as well. A lot of experienced guys have simply moved on or keep their DSM out of nostalgia and not actively participating as much. I preferred the hardcore group of DSMers anyway, and it's already condensing back down to that. Had Mitsubishi maintained the Eclipse turbo production run this would be a different story and there would have been an influx of new vehicles and owners with money to spend. The market needs a little bit of everything: new vehicle owners with money to spend, hardcore older experienced modders, young owners with used vehicles just starting out. The natural progression will take it's place regardless of what members intend. If MMC decides to go turbo coupe again with the Eclipse in the future and keeps the pricing in the mid 20k range like the base WRX, then that is what will breathe some life back into the market. At the moment, MMC is in some deep shit and hopefully Nissan will help them pull out of it. I'm hoping they just bring back the EVO at this point.

If a Vendor is competing against a dwindling vehicle base and a lower income/younger crowd with less to spend, the writing is on the wall. Not saying there aren't a ton of guys out there doing impressive builds, but the bread and butter is selling the full set of bolt-on mods to the masses. I don't believe the DSM aftermarket scene will disappear completely, there were way too many turbo "DSMs" sold over those 10 years between 1989-1999 for that happen.
 
At this point there is a wealth of tools at a DSMers reach.

3d printing is the next new thing. Image you need a bov gasket, flange or just the bov itself? Print and build. Say you want a solid motor mount....click, print....beer.. sleep and install in the morning. You think it's silly but the airplanes I work on 3d print parts we can no longer buy and at 1000 for an entry-level machine you can do it in your garage.

Also this is true of the internet, cad drawings are available, thanks China, and you can send it from your house in San Diego, California to a machinist in York, Maine and bam you now have a tubular manifold or whatever you wanted.

The game changed. The car isn't a 17 year olds toy like it was for me in the early 2000s, instead it's a mid 30s guys toy who is restoring the same car as a time capsule of joy or a wicked weekend toy.
 
Yes, the technology is evolving quickly. I believe SpaceX or NASA is already running Powder laser sintered components in their rocket engines. I've been using 3d printed parts for prototyping for the last +10 years so to me it's no big deal. A lot of people are fascinated by it but it's like any other process, it just allows a part to be designed with a closed form that would be otherwise impossible to mold/machine otherwise, or to be made in the office quickly. I interchangeably design both 3d printed parts and machined or molded parts and for low stress/non-structural testing they are good. Some light structural they are good as well if you are comparing against another plastic part. 3d printing is really useful for making complex fixtures that you don't care about aesthetics but just need something that works. Dimensionally a FDM part I've seen hold .005" or better and for most people that is good enough, so they can also be accurate as well. Not so good for fatigue resistance or where porosity is an issue. I've had to switch to 3d printing when a part was too complex for a 4 axis machining center software to handle before cutting steel on the injection mold tooling. Again, used the right way 3d printing has big advantages.

I use it mostly for designing and prototyping fluid flow valves and validating the CFD fluid flow simulations, they work well. Powder laser sintering is more useful as a final working part but the technology is impressive these days. 3d printing is really no different than a machining center, just additive material technology versus subtractive. The printing speeds are what limits their usefulness, but that is rapidly changing. The programming is where the difference is mainly, 3d printing requires minimal to zero programming knowledge, a machining center CAM software requires far greater programmer input and part fixturing/re-fixturing. This IMHO is an important difference that somewhat "democratizes" the design/manufacturing process. It also makes 3d printing boring unless you are an inventor who doesn't care about the "process" of making stuff. Since I am a project engineer, I like the design process which includes all the programming, prototyping, machining/molding, etc. Some people just want the end product immediately so there you go, 3d printing. Final material finish quality is where the 3d printers need improvement, but they are improving greatly in this area. Again, to me it's just another tool in an engineer's toolbox but 3d printing is pretty cool.
 
You guys are literally talking about rocket science...

...Meanwhile, elsewhere on DSMtuners, I'm trying to explain to people how to properly adjust their TPS sensors ROFL

The knowledge gap between the DSMer and technology has, and probably will always be, the biggest obstacle. That's why plug and play parts are so popular not only with this community, but all car communities. If all you engineer types are making parts that take zero brain power to install and implement, you're going to have a large customer base willing to buy your crap. That's how aftermarkets succeed, and that's how they make money.

Now, if you you're a business and have the ability to make any 50 parts per week that you want, what 50 parts do you make? Do you make 50 parts for the DSM guys who are willing to pay $10 bucks a pop, or make them for the GT-R guys who are willing to pay $100 bucks a pop?

I'm using an extremely oversimplified example here, but I think it clearly conveys my point: Smart businesses make parts for markets which net them the largest profit margins.

Real businesses have one real end goal, and that's to make money. If you're making DSM parts simply because you love it and your ultimate goal is to help the community, you're probably on track to being broke, or a hobbyist/freelancer...In which case, you'll probably need to look for a day job.

I don't think the game has really changed much. It has just continued on as it always has developing smarter and more experienced players along the way.
 
Everyone choose to pick parts on a lot of different reasons just harder to find parts gotta get what you can.
 
I think where envisioning automotive circles with he 3d tech is a service where you want a link or a bracket or a vent or whatever and it's no longer available. You send it to Johnny's 3d Inc and for a small fee he renders it and prints it for reproduction. This is a community based idea and I have thought of doing it for my own selfish reasons. Why would I spend time shaping and building a low strength standoff out of aluminum or fiberglass when I can print it...in plastic or metal.

If there was a large scale need, and I think in the next few years there will be for these and other "classic to you" cars, this will be the norm.
 
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