94awdcoupe said:

can wait to here your comments on AWD

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Yeah it's been a while since I started this awd trek I am very excited and looking forward to all the sleepless n

bastarddsm said:

Well, it will be center diff soup very quickly. That's a machined down cross shaft, and its probably loose hell in the case. It'll be galled up in a hurry.

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Don't worry my tmz super duty shaft will be here tomorrow. After all my reading I definitely would not have used the stocker. This goes also for the t case and axles.

Oh forgot to mention the gears of the center diff, TMZ cross shaft, center diff housing and all the washers will be cryo and wpc treated. Just something I just want to get done that's all .

Yeah, that shaft will fix everything... . 5 passes, galled to shit. Calling it right now.

bastarddsm said:

Yeah, that shaft will fix everything... . 5 passes, galled to sh**. Calling it right now.

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what caused it? Lack of oil, shaft designed poorly, poor materials? It seems to be a pretty well designed shaft I have read nothing but good reviews on it on several forums. Do you have pics. I was also under the impression that you welded tabs on your center differential housing like jacks to help with better oiling of those gears and shaft?

Ok dsm mad scientist!

What qualifications do you have to say the shaft is well designed.

It is in fact a poor design, but that's not what causes it to gall.
1. helical oiling groove runs right through a high stress area.
2. A 2 post shaft has 5 times more stress than a 4 post for the same load.

That galling occurs because the shaft doesn't stay square in the housing. The shaft digs into the housing and lets it get play, now the shaft isn't square to the thrust surfaces of the gears. You get metal on metal contact. The whole system is a very poor design. No amount of fairy dust cryo bullshit is going to fix that.

As for your good reviews, how many people are making 800whp? How many people actually use it? How many people put their own trans together?

If your only making highway pulls it'll stay together just fine, but a stock one would probably be fine there too. You start drag racing it, it will go to hell in a hurry.

bastarddsm said:

What qualifications do you have to say the shaft is well designed.

It is in fact a poor design, but that's not what causes it to gall.
1. helical oiling groove runs right through a high stress area.
2. A 2 post shaft has 5 times more stress than a 4 post for the same load.

That galling occurs because the shaft doesn't stay square in the housing. The shaft digs into the housing and lets it get play, now the shaft isn't square to the thrust surfaces of the gears. You get metal on metal contact. The whole system is a very poor design. No amount of fairy dust cryo bullshit is going to fix that.

As for your good reviews, how many people are making 800whp? How many people actually use it? How many people put their own trans together?

If your only making highway pulls it'll stay together just fine, but a stock one would probably be fine there too. You start drag racing it, it will go to hell in a hurry.

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The same qualifications we all have, advertisements and positive feedback. Your the only one on the world wide Web that has had an issue with tmz shaft. And as you stated the issue wasn't breakage of the shaft but galling which wouldn't be the shaft problem more like an oiling issue. I don't think no materials can handle this issue you think?

bastarddsm said:

Yeah, that shaft will fix everything... . 5 passes, galled to sh**. Calling it right now.

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Kurt, you are one of two people to ever have an issue or failure with it, and you were the one assembling it. I don't care if Jon machined it, it could have easily been a setup problem. either way I'm a bit tired of you sh!t talking me for years now because you had a problem, grow up, make your own stuff, stop bashing people who are helping the community.

You galled one, I replaced it free of charge out of my pocket and your spider gears, you broke one and I told you to contact Tim at Beyond Redline who made the parts to discuss the failure and to send your diff housing to them, myself or to TRE for proper setup.

It's a tool steel part that is pre-hardened, machined, heat treated, and finish ground. I have sold hundreds of them in over a decade, and there have been plenty of 800+awhp cars it has been in. 2 galled, 1 broken. Of those 3, you are responsible for 2.

twicks69 said:

Kurt, you are one of two people to ever have an issue or failure with it, and you were the one assembling it. I don't care if Jon machined it, it could have easily been a setup problem. either way I'm a bit tired of you sh!t talking me for years now because you had a problem, grow up, make your own stuff, stop bashing people who are helping the community.

You galled one, I replaced it free of charge out of my pocket and your spider gears, you broke one and I told you to contact Tim at Beyond Redline who made the parts to discuss the failure and to send your diff housing to them, myself or to TRE for proper setup.

It's a tool steel part that is pre-hardened, machined, heat treated, and finish ground. I have sold hundreds of them in over a decade, and there have been plenty of 800+awhp cars it has been in. 2 galled, 1 broken. Of those 3, you are responsible for 2.

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All the high powered guys on 4gtuner running it without issue. Thanks tim for even making it possible for us to even purchase the shaft! I looked into having one made when yours was out of stock and the machine shop here in atlanta that specialize in doing this type of machine work had a 50 unit minimum and to take it through the process of completion with all the hardening and treatments it was a minimum of 5000.00 out of my pocket! So getting stuff like this made is note a walk in the park. Mine will be here today the wpc of all the center diff , shaft and gears are more so for anti friction purposes to help the oil do its job!

keltalon said:

The same qualifications we all have, advertisements and positive feedback. Your the only one on the world wide Web that has had an issue with tmz shaft. And as you stated the issue wasn't breakage of the shaft but galling which wouldn't be the shaft problem more like an oiling issue. I don't think no materials can handle this issue you think?

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Yeah, that doesn't qualify you to comment on the design of anything... I'm not the only one that has had issues with it.

bastarddsm said:

Yeah, that doesn't qualify you to comment on the design of anything... I'm not the only one that has had issues with it.

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Its all good. I am looking forward to putting it to use in my setup.

twicks69 said:

Kurt, you are one of two people to ever have an issue or failure with it, and you were the one assembling it. I don't care if Jon machined it, it could have easily been a setup problem. either way I'm a bit tired of you sh!t talking me for years now because you had a problem, grow up, make your own stuff, stop bashing people who are helping the community.

You galled one, I replaced it free of charge out of my pocket and your spider gears, you broke one and I told you to contact Tim at Beyond Redline who made the parts to discuss the failure and to send your diff housing to them, myself or to TRE for proper setup.

It's a tool steel part that is pre-hardened, machined, heat treated, and finish ground. I have sold hundreds of them in over a decade, and there have been plenty of 800+awhp cars it has been in. 2 galled, 1 broken. Of those 3, you are responsible for 2.

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First off I never shit talked you. The shaft, yes. You did more than you should have. but that doesn't change the fact that the shaft is junk. It's junk because it drives off 2 points. It has huge stresses right where the non drive pins meet the body. Right where there is a oiling groove (stress concentration).... That's also right where it broke.

As for galling:
Seriously explain to me what I did wrong on assembly? The only thing that was under my control is backlash on the top gear. I don't know how that could cause it to gall up when the galling is from the shaft beating into the case and letting it get cocked. Unless I got bad machined diff housing from TRE. I don't think that's it either though. The whole center diff design is f***ed. Show me any other differential that has a floating cross like this one. It's a bad design, and driving it off 2 points makes it worse as it just beats is self in worse, and gets out of square faster.

My problem is that instead of trying to get to the root of the issue you just take the easy route and blame the assembly or machining.

As for your comments on grow and make it your self... I did. We'll find out how well it holds up in time.

twicks69 said:

It's a tool steel part that is pre-hardened, machined, heat treated, and finish ground. I have sold hundreds of them in over a decade, and there have been plenty of 800+awhp cars it has been in. 2 galled, 1 broken. Of those 3, you are responsible for 2.

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Who are the 800+ whp cars that these are in?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/center-diff-tech.503494/

I'm not an FEA expert, but I'm pretty sure that the 2 point design is much weaker than the 4 point.

I think that quick analysis carries much more weight than "It seems to be a pretty well designed shaft."

K

bastarddsm said:

Who are the 800+ whp cars that these are in?

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Kurtis it seems you got it figured out why is it you keep bashing Tim in the open forum? come on man let it go! Tim makes 1000whp and its holding fine.

Bashing? Lol get real. I want to know so I can find out how they are getting them to live.

Like I said, I bought the shaft from Tim - it's supposed to be the best. I had TRE machine the housing, he is supposed to be the best. I machined the cap for the Torrington bearing and set the backlash to the factory spec. The first one lasted less than a season on 450whp and 1.9 60's on street tires. The second shaft lasted like 3-4 similar passes and it was galled up.

Why did they fail? I used Redline 75-140 gl5 oil. Either the shaft sucks, the diff design sucks, TRE boned me on machining the housing, the shaft requires a special oil or backlash (which I was not informed of), or it requires some special assembly procedure.

I don't want to drag anyone else into this, but the other one that failed was one of the most meticulous, thorough, and careful guys to own a dsm. IIRC he got a complete assembled diff from tim, and it galled up really quick too.

In the pictures on TRE's website it looks like there ctd housing is modified and their cross shaft is driven by 4 points? Anyone have more pictures of tre's shaft in a housing? I can only see what tre has on there website.

Jon used Speed Design shafts many years ago (which were never square), and he also sometimes uses rear diff cross shafts machined to fit the output shaft. It's a good hardened piece and the posts already fit the center diff spider gears. You just have to make sure you have the orientation proper when assembling it.

I'm very curious to see how the WPC treatment does with your setup Kel, definitely worth following your journey with the new AWD. I just unfortunately cannot see how these gears will last in the long run considering it is still a stock mitsu 3/4, but I do wish you luck and you have a tendency to come out on top of these challenges. I just hope in future DSM history we see more local and better manufacturing of newer gears that will actually improve the strength into that 100-200% increase range.
Good luck brotha!

Tiki2777 said:

I'm very curious to see how the WPC treatment does with your setup Kel, definitely worth following your journey with the new AWD.
Good luck brotha!

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Thanks, stay tuned you know i will post the experience for sure.

I changed the timing belt and a few other items today waiting on gears to get back. Engine still looks good.

Notice the unvented valve cover hint hint!

Trying to add some inspiration to the thread as I wait for my gears to come back from all the treatments. I will post a few videos for those who haven't seen them.


Memory lane for a second I remember the excitement I had when I first broke the 600whp mark in the fwd it was kind of hilarious.



I keep getting info that the stock gears cannot be improved upon and metal treatment in my case is a waste of time and money. I disagree. This video explain a little about compressive stress on metals.

Wait you had how much HP while FWD?

I had a FWD car that dynoed at 284 whp/331 wtq and 1st and 2nd gear were like driving on ice, and sometimes even 3rd might spin. 600-800 must be nuts.

JDT said:

Wait you had how much HP while FWD?

I had a FWD car that dynoed at 284 whp/331 wtq and 1st and 2nd gear were like driving on ice, and sometimes even 3rd might spin. 600-800 must be nuts.

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Well it spun 4tg gear but it's more about learning how to drive it. That's why I am swapping everything over to awd I have a thread on the swap

I'm loving the videos!!!!

keltalon said:

Memory lane for a second I remember the excitement I had when I first broke the 600whp mark in the fwd it was kind of hilarious.

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how many psi was this pull done on Kels and was that with the cyclone mani?

ceedawg said:

how many psi was this pull done on Kels and was that with the cyclone mani?

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36psi and yes it was with the cyclone.

keltalon said:

36psi and yes it was with the cyclone.

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645whp 431tq yep i feel that i may go up to 30 psi on mine and call it a day. Stay tuned backs starting to feel better so i will be working on the beast soon. Looking for high 500's or low 600s whatever 30 psi will give me with the meth.

keltalon said:

Well it spun 4tg gear but it's more about learning how to drive it. That's why I am swapping everything over to awd I have a thread on the swap

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No wonder you keep ending up in ditches. I hope you fare now that you're AWD.