1G Stumped, Need this thing out of my garage

willwonderlama · Oct 8, 2015

Long story short, couple years ago timing belt broke and trashed the valves. Fast forward to now replaced head with one from my parts car a 92 1gb auto awd. Go to fire car up after head swap and no power to ECU just cranked no fire. Replaced bad ecu with one from 92 parts car after swaping pin 6 and 14 and after some other set backs i.e. Clogged injector bad coil pack and few other small unrelated items.

Now to the issue at hand. At idle it runs pig rich 11-10 afr and leans out 14-15 with slight rpm increase where it is supposed to be when crusing. The SAFC2 settings have not been touched, before the timing belt miss hap ran like a raped ape and afrs where they need to be. Other then the 2g maf, front o2 sensor, and coolent temp sensor what are some other things to check. Also having a difficult time locating the correct specs for said sensors. In the process of making a blt can not locate mine right now.

Also could perhaps the ecu from the 92 car be the issue since it was from a auto even though I have a SAFC2 to tune with. Need this thing out of my garage I have boat worth a heck of a lot more that needs to be in there.

Mods in profile feel free to ask for clarification on anything and thanks in advance.

97gsxIA · Oct 8, 2015

I would say you need to do a boost leak check and then double check everything you did to the car.

Did you wire your 2g MAS correctly for your 1g harness?

IE:

Orange/Green ---> Red/black
Yelloq/Green ---> Pink
Black/Green ---> Black
Red/Green ---> Grey
Red ---> Red
Green ---> White/Black
White/Green ----> Blue

Double check those two things, calibrate your WB and check back in with use after that.

steve · Oct 8, 2015

You neglect to tell us what the car you're working on is. There are differences between manual and automatic ECU's that could cause a bit of difference in the SAFC settings.

So please fill in the missing details on the car you're fixing.

pauleyman · Oct 8, 2015

It's a big difference. 1g autos did not use 450 injectors. If you had a 5spd ecu in it that's a problem.

steve · Oct 8, 2015

The way I read this, he has a 90 manual with RC550's, a 2G MAF, and an SAFC to tune with.
He swapped in a 92 Auto ECU and didn't adjust for the auto ECU expecting 360cc injectors.

willwonderlama · Oct 8, 2015

steve said:
The way I read this, he has a 90 manual with RC550's, a 2G MAF, and an SAFC to tune with.
He swapped in a 92 Auto ECU and didn't adjust for the auto ECU expecting 360cc injectors.

You read correctly thanks. I'm trying to source a ECU from a 90 turbo MT to put things back the way they were but so far no luck.

pauleyman said:
It's a big difference. 1g autos did not use 450 injectors. If you had a 5spd ecu in it that's a problem.

That's what I was workin towards, but wanted to make sure all sensors that I spoke of in original post were workin correctly, since I have a multi meter and that's free. Plus I've already had to replace cool pack, ptu and a few other odds and ends. Just trying to make sure that the ecu was the only issue before I dip into the funds for my ecoboost

97gsxIA said:
I would say you need to do a boost leak check and then double check everything you did to the car.

Did you wire your 2g MAS correctly for your 1g harness?

IE:

Orange/Green ---> Red/black
Yelloq/Green ---> Pink
Black/Green ---> Black
Red/Green ---> Grey
Red ---> Red
Green ---> White/Black
White/Green ----> Blue

Double check those two things, calibrate your WB and check back in with use after that.

Still working on BLT. The 2g maf pigtail was already wired in when I got the car and car ran flawlessly before the timing belt miss hap other then a less then adequate tune which I rectified shortly after purchase. But I will double check.

steve said:
You neglect to tell us what the car you're working on is. There are differences between manual and automatic ECU's that could cause a bit of difference in the SAFC settings.

So please fill in the missing details on the car you're fixing.

I will check my profile but car is a 90 turbo tsi awd mt

steve · Oct 8, 2015

willwonderlama said:
I will check my profile but car is a 90 turbo tsi awd mt

I found what I posted in the profile, however one shouldn't have to search for a profile to answer a thread, the key information should be included in the first post.

You don't list an AFPR so I'm assuming you are running the 1G manual base fuel pressure of 37 psi.

You're going to have tach issues with the 92 ECU as well as the tuning that will be needed for the difference in injector flow rates. The Auto ECU has different fuel and timing maps but that won't keep you from rolling the car out of the garage.

Do you have any datalogging tools?

willwonderlama · Oct 8, 2015

steve said:
I found what I posted in the profile, however one shouldn't have to search for a profile to answer a thread, the key information should be included in the first post.

You don't list an AFPR so I'm assuming you are running the 1G manual base fuel pressure of 37 psi.

You're going to have tach issues with the 92 ECU as well as the tuning that will be needed for the difference in injector flow rates. The Auto ECU has different fuel and timing maps but that won't keep you from rolling the car out of the garage.

Do you have any datalogging tools?

I apologize thought one was to look at a profile for vehicle info to keep down on clutter of posts duely noted. Also yes to the fuel pressure 37 psi (stock regulator) confirmed. Lastly only logging tool is the wide band of u consider it a logging tool

Update: I now realize that the ecu from the 92 auto car is probably my main culprit. Car I'm working on is a 90 MT, a complete over site by myself but my main concern now is that the sensors mentioned earlier are in proper working order i.e. Temp sensor, front o2 sensor and 2g maf. Still trying to find the info on them on which pin to check for what mainly 2g maf and o2 sensor temp sensor self explanatory only to posts.
Still trying to source a 90 turbo MT ECU MD145903 to put back to original if anyone can point me in the right direction that would be a huge help. Already checked classifieds and eBay rather not spend a arm and a leg for one. Also mine 90 ecu appears to be beyond repair but still need to give to folks at ecmtuning a call.

steve · Oct 8, 2015

Profiles change over time which reduces the value of the thread to someone who's searching in the future.

The wideband is a great tool but as you've discovered it can't tell you if the other sensors are functioning properly. Checking the Airflow portion of the MAF is difficult without a 1G datalogger but the other sensors can be measured with an multimeter.

Here's a few manuals that will help: (I hope Jason doesn't mind linking to his site)
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90 1G Talon Laser Technical Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90-91 Talon Laser Vol 1 EngChasBody Service Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90-91 Talon Laser Vol 2 Electrical Service Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90DSMTURBOECUPINOUTS color coded.jpg

The 1G Technical Reference is a outstanding primer and well worth reading from cover to cover.

willwonderlama · Oct 8, 2015

steve said:
Profiles change over time which reduces the value of the thread to someone who's searching in the future.

The wideband is a great tool but as you've discovered it can't tell you if the other sensors are functioning properly. Checking the Airflow portion of the MAF is difficult without a 1G datalogger but the other sensors can be measured with an multimeter.

Here's a few manuals that will help: (I hope Jason doesn't mind linking to his site)
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90 1G Talon Laser Technical Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90-91 Talon Laser Vol 1 EngChasBody Service Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90-91 Talon Laser Vol 2 Electrical Service Manual .PDF/
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/90DSMTURBOECUPINOUTS color coded.jpg

The 1G Technical Reference is a outstanding primer and well worth reading from cover to cover.

You have know idea how helpful this is and thanks for taking time out of your day to give some extremely useful information. Been searching for stuff like this for a good while now. I will check everything out and post results, if I were to guess they are in good and working order but as u stated above without a data logger it gets confusing. For what's it's worth when I first got the car I did borrow a logger and used mmcd to get my tune good well as good as one can achieve with a safc2.

willwonderlama · Oct 19, 2015

Update: So as stated previously car will run with the 92 turbo at ecu. I have purchased the correct MD145903 ecu and now back to the same thing as far as I can tell, the big giveaway the safc has no power. Is it possible I got my hands 2 bad ecu's? Anything is possible I suppose. So now I need to ponder my thoughts on how to figure out if the ecu is bad or I left something unplugged after the head swap. Honestly I haven't a clue and this thing has beat me for now so tired of the wasted money on this thing. Guess I'll start by searching for the no start thread and work my way from there. But if anyone has any pointers and can get me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated.

steve · Oct 19, 2015

So it will start with a 92 ECU but not with the "new" 90 ECU?

If you don't get a CEL for five seconds and then turns off and the factory boost gauge doesn't move to zero the ECU isn't working (or powering up). If you have an ECU that does then I won't point you at debugging the MPI circuit. If it doesn't with any ECU then I'd send you down the MPI circuit path.

Post up pictures of the "new" ECU board.

willwonderlama · Oct 19, 2015

steve said:
So it will start with a 92 ECU but not with the "new" 90 ECU?

If you don't get a CEL for five seconds and then turns off and the factory boost gauge doesn't move to zero the ECU isn't working (or powering up). If you have an ECU that does then I won't point you at debugging the MPI circuit. If it doesn't with any ECU then I'd send you down the MPI circuit path.

Post up pictures of the "new" ECU board.

Correct it will not start with the "new" 90 ecu. In all honsety I didn't even try and crank the car once I seen the safc had no power was instantly pissed to the point that the 20lb sledge hammer sitting at the corner or the garage look extremely pleasing tool to take my frustration out on. Yes I jumped the gun right now and no I haven't confirmed yet if the cel does it thing was well as the factory boost gauge. I'm just so stumped as to why the other 92 ecu got power and this one dosent (still trying to figure out how to check ecu with a multi meter if you can). Also the MPI circuit in my mind was working or still is if the 92 ecu worked with the car of course the electrical system in the cars are confusing for lack of a better term. Lastly just wanted to say thanks a million Steve for all the info and guidance you continue to give me. I feel as if I may be over engineering the thought process behind all this and it's just another bad ecu. Unfortunately it will be another delayed update as I have a ridiculas work schedule till the weekend unless I have to work the weekend too. Once again thank you for the speedy response.

steve · Oct 19, 2015

The typical SAFC wiring picks up the +12 and ground from the ECU wiring coming from the MPI relay.
If the 92 ECU starts the car then the MPI circuit works. If the 90 ECU won't even turn the MPI power on it's bad. Sorry.

Where did you get it? Hopefully you can return it of at least get some money back.

There is a brief write up on the basic MPI circuit operation in the Tech Articles if you're interested.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-basic-ecu-mpi-circuit-function.435961/

willwonderlama · Oct 19, 2015

steve said:
The typical SAFC wiring picks up the +12 and ground from the ECU wiring coming from the MPI relay.
If the 92 ECU starts the car then the MPI circuit works. If the 90 ECU won't even turn the MPI power on it's bad. Sorry.

Where did you get it? Hopefully you can return it of at least get some money back.

There is a brief write up on the basic MPI circuit operation in the Tech Articles if you're interested.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-basic-ecu-mpi-circuit-function.435961/

Thanks for the link it will come in handy at some point I'm sure. Also I got the ecu from a reputable guy and by far had the most speedy and informative response I have had the pleasure of dealing with. Unfortunately it was a salvage yard I have yet to talk to him about it to see if they test these ecu's
I would rather not throw him under the bus after all it's a salvage yard I was taking a 50/50 shot so to speak. I probably should have investigated this a whole lot more but I finally found someone with the ecu I was after that was stock and didn't want $300-500 for. Thought I was on a wild goose chase for the great white buffalo with the ecu. I was in Texas and short on time when purchased so I took a gamble.

willwonderlama · Oct 25, 2015

Update:
Well after the second salvage yard ecu it's breathing fire once again. Now to figure out what my check engine light is all about and some other maintaince items and tires with horrid flat spots I should be able to sell it and move on. Thanks for everyone who gave any input or advice or anything for that matter. This has taught me a lot mostly cuss words LOL

. Just kidding checking various sensors with a multi meter tells you a lot and a FSM is a key ingredient and must have in keeping these cars alive.

steve · Oct 25, 2015

The ECU will spit out the fault codes on the diagnostic port. It's a 12v set of two digit long and short pulses that repeats. A datalogger makes it easy but an analog voltmeter, or a 12v LED or low current buzzer will get the job done.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-code-reader-cel-code-reader.319844/

willwonderlama · Oct 26, 2015

steve said:
The ECU will spit out the fault codes on the diagnostic port. It's a 12v set of two digit long and short pulses that repeats. A datalogger makes it easy but an analog voltmeter, or a 12v LED or low current buzzer will get the job done.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-code-reader-cel-code-reader.319844/

Thanks again I'll be sure to pay it forward all the info and links you have given me. Honestly I've used the search on here and tried to google approach but it seems cluttered with a lot of other stuff. Maybe I'm not wording it correctly.

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