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Drag Race Build SonySlave's 1990 GSX - The Ups and Downs of a 9-sec 1G

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Sorry to go OT on the build thread! But is some of the small shaft problems from running big wheels on them do you think?
 
Sorry to go OT on the build thread! But is some of the small shaft problems from running big wheels on them do you think?
No worries. I wish I had an answer to that. Maybe Steven will chime back in.

The new news from me is I ended up buying a supercore of the same S300SX FMW 62mm, switched to FP's red "journal bearing, full flow" inline oil filter/restrictor (.125" or 1/8"), and got a pair of -10AN fittings welded to the valve cover to fix the crankcase vent issues. The car finally made a couple good passes last weekend on the new turbo and crank vent setup. The car went 9.77@142 with a 1.52 60' and a 9.73@140 with a 1.45 60'! Turbo felt strong at 41-42psi and didn't smoke even a little bit under decel like the old one had been. I thought all was perfect. No noise, no smoke. Tuner made some changes in the Haltech and I went back out for my next pass. Tried to stall up the converter on the line and the RPMs wouldn't rise past 3000rpm. MAP sensor was showing 0psi. I knew something was up so I just left slowly and went back to the pits. Pulled the intake pipe off to check the turbo and sure enough, ridiculous shaft play and the wheel started rubbing the compressor housing. DAMN IT!!! Shaft didn't break this time, though. Again, no smoke, no noise. NOTHING! Nothing to tell me there was an issue, except that the data logs were showing the turbo was only making 36-37psi instead of the normal 41-42psi. So obviously the turbo was hurting during the second pass, which sucks because the 60' was really good (1.45). Even though the 60' was good and I dropped .04 off my E.T., my MPH dropped a few.

Needless to say I'm pretty bummed. After both seemingly flawless 9 second passes, I was finally beginning to remember why I continue to put myself through all of this disappointment, then this happens. I retreated to Facebook to start getting some ideas about what happened. The general consensus is I yet again under-oiled the turbo or my bottom end could be hurt, thus filling the inline filter with junk and starving the turbo. I checked the filter at the track at it was clean as a whistle. With that theory put away, most said I needed a 100% unrestricted -4AN line directly from the oil filter housing, including John Whalen who has run this turbo many times successfully. I made the mistake of trusting FP that their "journal bearing" filter/restrictor was good for ALL journal bearing turbos. I can't really blame them but I obviously won't use their journal bearing filter again. I loved their BB version with my old FP3065. I haven't bought another turbo yet and I might not this season. At this point, a $1700 Precision 6266 is going to be tough on my wallet but I'm also extremely skeptical of another $700 BW supercore. I don't know what is going to happen.
 
No worries. I wish I had an answer to that. Maybe Steven will chime back in.

The new news from me is I ended up buying a supercore of the same S300SX FMW 62mm, switched to FP's red "journal bearing, full flow" inline oil filter/restrictor (.125" or 1/8"), and got a pair of -10AN fittings welded to the valve cover to fix the crankcase vent issues. The car finally made a couple good passes last weekend on the new turbo and crank vent setup. The car went 9.77@142 with a 1.52 60' and a 9.73@140 with a 1.45 60'! Turbo felt strong at 41-42psi and didn't smoke even a little bit under decel like the old one had been. I thought all was perfect. No noise, no smoke. Tuner made some changes in the Haltech and I went back out for my next pass. Tried to stall up the converter on the line and the RPMs wouldn't rise past 3000rpm. MAP sensor was showing 0psi. I knew something was up so I just left slowly and went back to the pits. Pulled the intake pipe off to check the turbo and sure enough, ridiculous shaft play and the wheel started rubbing the compressor housing. DAMN IT!!! Shaft didn't break this time, though. Again, no smoke, no noise. NOTHING! Nothing to tell me there was an issue, except that the data logs were showing the turbo was only making 36-37psi instead of the normal 41-42psi. So obviously the turbo was hurting during the second pass, which sucks because the 60' was really good (1.45). Even though the 60' was good and I dropped .04 off my E.T., my MPH dropped a few.

Needless to say I'm pretty bummed. After both seemingly flawless 9 second passes, I was finally beginning to remember why I continue to put myself through all of this disappointment, then this happens. I retreated to Facebook to start getting some ideas about what happened. The general consensus is I yet again under-oiled the turbo or my bottom end could be hurt, thus filling the inline filter with junk and starving the turbo. I checked the filter at the track at it was clean as a whistle. With that theory put away, most said I needed a 100% unrestricted -4AN line directly from the oil filter housing, including John Whalen who has run this turbo many times successfully. I made the mistake of trusting FP that their "journal bearing" filter/restrictor was good for ALL journal bearing turbos. I can't really blame them but I obviously won't use their journal bearing filter again. I loved their BB version with my old FP3065. I haven't bought another turbo yet and I might not this season. At this point, a $1700 Precision 6266 is going to be tough on my wallet but I'm also extremely skeptical of another $700 BW supercore. I don't know what is going to happen.


Thr journal bearing turbos like a lot of oil volume. Ive never used a restrictor on one... Its all oil pressure based to determine that one is needed. Sorry to hear. You probably won't be used to it but precision recommends -4 unrestricted from the ofh to their ballbearing air cooled chra they recommend a remote oil filter If you must do extra filtering but straight up told me if i used FP's filter restrictor my warranty would be void (yes the black one) The restrictor on the PTE turbo comes installed on the CHRA and you dont restrict it any further. Just an fyi if you do pull the trigger. I might also be able to recommed a source for a 6266/6466/6766 at a discounted price pm me and I'll head you in the right direction. My 6466 was 20% off retail.
 
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And I told you so. That is about how long both of ours lasted. 1-2 outings. We fed them with a -4 line with both a .065" restrictor and .08-.085" the second time. Both from the oil filter housing. We have seen this too many times now. The 300 series small shaft turbos do not hold up to the Mitsubishi oiling system and the pressure ratios we put them through. Small shaft 200 series turbos do well. Especially here at altitude. We now have an off the shelf large shaft S475 on the car with the same oil line and fittings and return line as the s366 and have had zero issues up to 40psi. The only issue we have is we cannot get the thing over 40psi. We have a few more things to try as 850hp is just not enough. We have some restrictions but, we think there should still be more.

And it was not a motor issue as that is now in a Galant in California and has a maxed out 16g running the same oil feed and return configuration. In fact we have set every car up the same for the past ten years. I ran a small shaft holset hx52 for 7 years before it snapped the shaft over 40psi. The second one did not last long and had the same failure as the first over 40psi.

So it could be quite possible that big, heavy wheels and small diameter shafts and high shaft speeds don't mix well together. The new PTE stuff is smaller and lighter and my friends have had only minor issues with them at big boy boost. Mainly over oiling the ball bearing turbos.

We finally got to the point where we just built our cars for us. Not a class. Once we started going for ultimate speed, a lot of silly issues just went away. Maybe you just save up and put something on there and see what that car is made of.

For what it is worth, both 366's we ran were off the shelf John Deere turbos meant for a low speed tractor. High strung gasser vs low output diesel, good chance why we see no life out of them. The tractor stuff just runs forever drama free.
 
Seems to me most blown turbo issue on a dsm no matter the brand or builder is big wheels and small shafts! And yes sir I agree most dsm's like to "over spin" these type of turbos. Also most dsm's have high oil pressure which could be another issue.
 
For what it's worth i have a local to me on a 2.3 had a 6266 at 50psi and thrn upgraded to the 6466 and pushed thay only to 45psi so far but had back pressure causing minimal power gain at that level on both turbos. I called pte and asked what the 6466 was Good for and they said 50-60psi max for the gen2's with the 66mm turbine as long as back pressure is within reason. so at least these turbos won't be over spun by the average dsmer. More likely the crazies doin the world record thing.
 
All of our oiling systems are setup the same way. As much as we can get. We do nothing to hold them back. We value the life of our rotating assemblies as it is not fun or cheap to be doing engine repairs all the time. And yes, our engine are horribly inefficient so we have to run high shaft speeds to make any power. And it is easy to get greedy when these engines can take a serious amount of abuse, thus, more boost and more over spinning.

I think EVERYONE of us would be a bit surprised and shocked at what our drive pressures really were if we took the time to gather the data. And just think of what us dummies in Colorado have to deal with.
 
And I told you so. That is about how long both of ours lasted. 1-2 outings. We fed them with a -4 line with both a .065" restrictor and .08-.085" the second time. Both from the oil filter housing.

All of our oiling systems are setup the same way. As much as we can get. We do nothing to hold them back. We value the life of our rotating assemblies as it is not fun or cheap to be doing engine repairs all the time.

So which is it? Are you or not restricting the oil inlets?

Don't restrict a JB turbo. Plain and simple. You do, and you blow them up. I've had the same HE351 on my car for 4 seasons now at 35-40psi, and a few sessions with the WG welded shut, spiking to 50psi. It's still alive. I had a BW S300G on my car for a few sessions with way more than 40psi. It's still tight and it only has the bronze 270* thrust bearings. -4 feed, no restrictions, -12 drain. It's not rocket science. This is a street car that gets pounded day in - day out.


Sonyslave, what turbine wheel is in this? do you have the good thrust bearing? Got a picture of the setup? I'm looking into running one in the AGP he351 style exh housing. I'm currious how big it is, weather or not it will fit in place.
 
Oil feed, restricted. Motor oiling system, as much as we can get.

We have had zero issues this way with small turbos maxed out, small shaft, large wheel turbos at lower boost levels and large shaft turbos at anything we want.

The only combo that seems to fail regardless what car or turbo manufacturer is small shaft, large wheel turbos at big boy boost.

I had the hx52 last nearly 8 years above 35psi on three different engines. And the last year to year and a half above 40 with the last month or two being near 50psi. Once over 45psi it snapped in two. Another cartridge in its place did not last long above 45psi either. That was clearly the limit for my combo.

You can set yours up how you want. We have seen negative effects trying to feed them unrestricted. We found a nice round number for restrictors and it works well. Five mile blasts down the salt proves that the combo works just fine for us. Coincidentally we have snapped the shaft on two hx35's in two totally different combinations. Another salt car first full pass(4g63). And an unrestricted Oil feed on an International DT360 Diesel engine with no waste gate. That one has been replaced with an HX40 with no oiling changes and no waste gate and has had a happy life for three years now.
 
Damn Mike, this sucks. I was hoping after talking to you at the track, the larger evac setup for the crankcase pressure would take care of your issues. I hope you get your oiling issues resolved, even if it doesn't happen until next season.

And I told you so. That is about how long both of ours lasted. 1-2 outings. We fed them with a -4 line with both a .065" restrictor and .08-.085" the second time. Both from the oil filter housing. We have seen this too many times now. The 300 series small shaft turbos do not hold up to the Mitsubishi oiling system and the pressure ratios we put them through.

The compressor map for the S300SX FMW 62mm suggests even at 45lbs of boost, that turbo is still well within its efficiency range. You'd need to be moving upwards of 60lbs/min before you even start to creep into the lower efficiency ranges. With some airflow numbers, I could tell you definitively, and also plot your approximate shaft speed. I'd bet my ass it's not anywhere near the "danger zone".

Simply put, even @ 45lbs of boost you shouldn't be snapping shafts on the S300SX. I bet of you looked at 10 turbos with snapped shafts, 9 of those would be as a result of inadequate lubrication, or some other associated failure. That's what happened here, IMO. You'd need to be operating this turbo at ridiculous pressure ratios before you could even begin to assume that's the issue. And, if you're operating the turbo (or any turbo) off the map and assuming failures, then you have failed to pair the proper turbo with your setup. That's not the turbo's fault, it's yours.

borgwarner-s300sx-fmw-turbo-content-1.jpg


BW says:
  • Max warm oil pressure: 5 bar (73.5psi)
  • Max cold oil pressure: 8 bar (118psi)

If I were Michael, I'd tap the feed line and see what kind of pressure is actually being seen instead of guessing. Seems like the more logical route to me.

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-airwerks/borgwarner-s300sx-fmw-turbo.html
 
I never said what the failures were with the Borg warners. The thrust bearing on the turbine side failed the first time and put a lot of oil and smoke out of the exhaust. The second one was a whole new core and thrust bearing on the compressor side failed, the compressor wheel touched down and pushed enough oil each pass to oil down the entire intake system, intake manifold and cylinder head. It looked like michael's car after every pass.

With zero changes to the oiling system on the new Borg Warner S475(same exact parts reused) we have ran four events and been to the dyno twice and have zero issues up to 40psi so far. You can bench race all you want and show any kind of mapping you want, the real world is the real world. And the fact that the lowest elevation we have raced at in the past six years is at the salt flats and they are 4300ft changes everything compared to when you race at 50-100'ft above sea level. And I would know as I have raced the exact same car at Capitol Raceway in Crofton, Wall Dragway in Texas and here in Denver. I know how the cars respond andwhat losses and gains we see. And I know the adjustments we have to make going from Denver to Beeville in Texas when we go to the Texas Mile. There is no denying us, or any DSM guy overspin turbos constantly and even more so at the altitude I live at.

And there is no guessing as we log pressure on the land speed car and have had a mechanical gauge on both the mirage and my rat rod. You would not know anything about making power and pushing parts well past their intended limit seeing as you can't trap more than 100mph. Ask any real racer, or anyone who has been fast. There are a lot of failures and shit does not last at all when you try to go as far as your budget and creativity will let you. I have seen some major destruction from the slowest cars to 400mph streamliners. No one is immune. I watched the Speed Demon chunk a turbo on each pass, four passes in a row. I watched the Spectre Filters streamliner window four motors in five days at one event.

One thing we have learned, OEM parts just last longer. Turbos specifically in this instance. We ran a Holset HX52 for almost five years before we had it fail on the land speed Talon. And that was through quite a few failed engines. Any local drag cars seem to go through these "performance" turbos like water. Stick some old diesel tractor turbo with a cast wheel on a car and it lasts forever.

Good luck with your future decisions on the car Mike. I know that family comes first and I am likely not going to finish my car as our family goal is to both be debt free(only I am) and experience more things and not be so overwhelmed by cars and racing. I have been at it for 17 years now and while likely won't slow down, just don't know how smart it would be to continue racing versus having some more normal toys. And we don't have kids.
 
I never said what the failures were with the Borg warners.

That's weird, because you even said it twice?

I am just not convinced the small shaft Borg Warners are designed to handle the shaft speeds, drive pressures and pressure ratios the crappy 4g63 puts them through. They seem to have a long shelf life on Hondas. A lot of locals have just had a tough time with the basic Borg Warners lasting at big boy boost. With that said, the large shaft Borg's kick ass and last forever on all the local cars.
Don't be surprised if that little 62mm turd fails in short order again. We only made it to the track a few times on both 66mm turbos.

The 300 series small shaft turbos do not hold up to the Mitsubishi oiling system and the pressure ratios we put them through.

You can claim you're overspinning whatever turbo you want, running it at whatever PR you want. It's not relevant here, unless you have numbers to back it up. Big shaft, small shaft, "big boy boost", whatever...It doesn't matter. They all blow up the same without proper lubrication. The Mitsubishi 4G63 oiling system isn't uniquely handicapped, and it can absolutely provide the oil needed.

My post was clear; my opinion is this was a failure caused by improper lubrication. There's plenty of information in my last post to back up the theory.

BW has the oil requirements for the S300SX listed in black and white. The next logical step to me would be to tap the supply line to the turbo and verify the pressure is in spec.

I'd tap the line just like this guy did: http://clintsgarage.blogspot.com/2010/05/holset-hx35-turbo-install.html
 
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Mike,

Are you still running the eagle crank? how is it holding up? I remember buschur having trouble with the eagle evo cranks eating thrust bearings.
Yes I am still running the Eagle crank, however, it has been a bit of a roller coaster. English Racing originally built this 'short long rod' 2.2L in early 2013 with the 94mm Eagle crank. The car ran great, went a 9.93, etc. Then I had the crash at the East Coast Shootout due to the injector getting clogged. Bob and Tony Niemczyk from Turbo4 (4G63 dragster) took a look at the hurt shortblock and found that not only did it have a hurt piston and deck surface from the injector failure, but the center main bearing was trashed, yet all the others still looked awesome! Bob and Tony measured the runout of that journal and it was WAY off. That motor had less than 15 1/4mi passes and maybe 20 pulls on the dyno, never revved past 9000. English has built plenty of these 'SLR' 2.2s for Evos without issues, but mine was the first 6-bolt 4G63 they did this motor with. We aren't sure if English messed up, but I decided to have Bob and Tony rebuild the motor themselves (hard to argue with the world's quickest 4G63 builders!). They decided to have the crank straightened, rather than buy a new one, because they were building a 2.3L for another customer with an Eagle 100mm crank and there was ridiculous runout straight off the shelf. In the end, my new motor from Turbo4 has run great with the straightened Eagle crank. No signs of engine problems with about 10 9sec 1/4mi passes so far and 30-ish pulls on the dyno.

Sorry for the essay!
 
Well guys here's an update for you all...

Apparently I'm not allowed to have fun with my race car anymore. Two turbos due to lack of oil (my own damn fault) and now my brand new Turbo4 2.2L. This happened at World Cup Finals last weekend. For some reason, my fuel pressure dropped big time in third gear and the motor went BANG! First and second gear were perfect and the car was hauling ass! Once third gear came not more than half a second later... BOOM! Smoke everywhere. Checked the log on the Haltech and found a big problem. Just for reference, the car runs 60psi base fuel pressure and 41psi boost. First and second gear, fuel pressure was about 93psi, and AFR anywhere from 10.5-11.8 (tune needed a few track adjustments, no biggie), timing was 10* peak. Once third gear came, the fuel pressure dropped from 93psi to 73psi in about 200rpm at 41psi boost. AFR jumped from 11.0 to 14.0 and BANG. General consensus was that I beat the bearing right out of the rod and snapped it. Haven't checked the pan for the rod cap yet but here's what's left. This motor had less than 10 passes on it plus a day of dyno time.

The question now is why did the fuel pressure drop off. I checked the fuel filter and it looked new. The fuel pump, however, was making some very odd noises when it was priming after turning the ignition on to pull my datalog. My guess is a fuel pump failure under high boost. Why? I don't know. All I know is that when and if I put another motor in, a mechanical fuel pump will follow.

Now, you may ask, "Mike, you have Haltech. Doesn't Haltech have failsafes, including a fuel pressure specific failsafe, to help avoid failures like these?" And the answer would be yes, yes it does. The problem is that they weren't enabled. Why? I don't know. I honestly thought they had been turned on during my dyno tuning. Now, my ECU had been to Haltech recently for service and upgrades and I had to load my tune back onto the ECU. Maybe the failsafes weren't reactivated. I don't know but it's shitty overall. All I know is that my failure would likely have been significantly less had the failsafes been on. Yet another expensive lesson learned.

My son will be here any time now, so the car is on the backburner for the foreseeable future. Maybe a part out. I don't know yet. The last three years of racing has been brutal to my wallet and my passion for racing. It's hard to justify continuing this hobby.

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Man, its sad to hear the bad news. It seems like you can never catch a break.

Take the time away by spending it wirg family and come back to it later, even if it is a year or more away. Dont part it out as you'll aways get the bug again.....unless you go LS. Lol.
 
Damn, Mike. You really can't catch a break. I really feel for you man. I've been ready to throw in the towel before, and my loses didn't come close to what yours probably total to date.

I really hope you decide to keep the car. Maybe a break away will do you some good. It may let you recoup from all the crappy luck you've been having, welcome your new son, and replenish some of your funds.

It's easy to kick yourself in the ass in retrospect considering all the things you could have done. You'll just have to chalk this one up, and hopefully come back stronger and more experienced.
 
Take a break, with the baby you won't give a shit about it for a while anyway and then add in winter time so relax and chill.
In a few months the baby will get on a steady schedule and then you will have time to work on it, do whatever.

Good luck to you whatever you decide, but don't let it stress you out too much it's not going anywhere.
 
Dude... my wife hates your car. She asked me what I wanted for our anniversary... i sent a picture of your car. Asked me about my birthday... got a picture of your car. Even just the other day... she asked what I wanted for Christmas.
 
Man that sucks. Was the hg beat up?
You can see in the last picture the headgasket still looks new. It's unreal it survived despite the rest of this carnage.

I appreciate the comments guys. I love the fact that my car is/could be inspirational to others in the community. I really try hard and put a lot of money into the best, quality parts. Like it has been said, I really haven't been able to catch a break and tens of thousands of dollars seem to be disappearing yearly without any real consistency, reliability, or satisfaction. Money isn't really the biggest issue. I make pretty good money and I try to spend wisely. I'm not a mechanic by trade. I'm a computer nerd. So I rely on others to get motors/trans/wiring harnesses built. Unfortunately, things continue to slip through the cracks and cost me dearly.

As you all have said, the car will sit. I'll pull the shortblock apart and see what's salvageable, if anything. I'll have the head looked at as well. Most of the head parts are likely good. Maybe the other three custom 153mm R&R rods will be ok and I'll only need one. We'll see. More to come from me whether it be part out or revival. Thanks for the kind wishes for my son, everyone!
 
Not trying to be a dick or anything but I have a really hard time believing going 14.0 did that. I knows it's apples and oranges, but back when I first ran 11s I let my car go upper 13s all the time. I was out of injector, I let them go static and have it boost till it quit going faster. Lots and lots of passes like that. If you were on gas I could believe it, but e85..ehh. It usually lean misfires before anything happens. Did it lay over a bunch before it popped?
 
Not trying to be a dick or anything but I have a really hard time believing going 14.0 did that. I knows it's apples and oranges, but back when I first ran 11s I let my car go upper 13s all the time. I was out of injector, I let them go static and have it boost till it quit going faster. Lots and lots of passes like that. If you were on gas I could believe it, but e85..ehh. It usually lean misfires before anything happens. Did it lay over a bunch before it popped?
The afr thing has me puzzled as well but I'm going to continue and follow to hear Mike further explain.
 
Not trying to be a dick or anything but I have a really hard time believing going 14.0 did that. I knows it's apples and oranges, but back when I first ran 11s I let my car go upper 13s all the time. I was out of injector, I let them go static and have it boost till it quit going faster. Lots and lots of passes like that. If you were on gas I could believe it, but e85..ehh. It usually lean misfires before anything happens. Did it lay over a bunch before it popped?
You've always been known for subtlety bastard... LOL. I just accept that you are looking for additional data so you can make an informed assessment. I can do that.

We came to the conclusion of the bearing being beat out of the rod due to several data points in the datalog. One, at 41psi boost, the fuel pressure dropped from 93psi to 73psi causing the AFR to increase from 11.0 to 14.0 when I left off. This happened between about 7300 and 7500rpm just after the 2-3 shift. Two, EGT in Cylinder 1 increased from about 1350* (normal) to over 1700* (very hot). Three, oil pressure at the oil filter housing was good according to the datalog, a bit over 100psi when the rod let go. Four, water temperature was less than 200*. Five, the TPS was still functioning perfectly. Surprisingly, all of my spark plugs, including #1, are all intact. I haven't read them all yet to see if they tell a story yet. My point here is that the fuel pressure drop is the only thing I can see in the data that shows me a problem/explanation.

Now, the car was on it's best pass to date according to the 1/8mi data. 6.21 with a 1.43 60'. My best previous 1/8mi was 6.31. The car did not lay over at all before it popped. However, the Haltech Platinum Sport 1000 ECU doesn't have knock sensor control. If the car starts to knock and things go shitty, the Haltech won't pull timing, etc. The new Elite boxes have built-in knock control. The real problem was the fact that the failsafes in the ECU weren't enabled, specifically, the fuel pressure failsafe. Haltech sponsors the WCF event, so everyone from Haltech USA was there. We all looked at the data and they also could only guess a failure caused by the drop in fuel pressure. I haven't pulled the rest of the rods and pistons yet but the headgasket looks almost new.
 
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