Evo 3 16 hybrid possibilities.

chanley talon · Apr 25, 2015

Just wanted to see people opinions on an idea i was thinking about. And if it's even possible?

Can you make a evo3 turbo except a tdo6 variant turbine wheel by machineing the 7cm housing.
Could you squeeze more top end from the evo3 16g?
Like adding a 7cm housing to a 14b but increasing the turbine wheel size also.
To me it seems that the larger turbine wheel would spin the smaller wheel much faster.

Looking for input on this cause I am thinking of having it done just to see?

EC17PSE · Apr 25, 2015

You can make the evo 3 16g better at the top end by porting quite abit and running a 9 blade turbine wheel! They say it is slower in spool but if you combine that with an extended tip compressor billet wheel then you wont see any spool decrease and you will see better top end from it. Plus the lighter weight billet/9 Blade is a lighter combo anyway so even better for you.

What are your end goals here and your plans

TallestHERETIC · Apr 25, 2015

Less blades for both sides, extended tips, billet wheels and machining the bearing housing to accept larger/lighter wheels and turbine. You can also machine the original 16g compressor housing a bit to fit a 20g wheel in it. A way better and stronger wastegate solution will make you scream! Keep the original TD05 housing. Replace it with a new one if it looks like crap/questionable.

ThunderChild · Apr 25, 2015

I'm doing this to an extent, but it's for an VIII based turbo. KTS 20g extended tip billet 7 blade wheel, td06sl2r turbine wheel in a 10.5t ported turbine housing.

Fwiw, my billet wheel is significantly heavier than the cast wheels, about 15 grams iirc.
there will probably be A spool difference regardless if ur changing wheels.

chanley talon · Apr 25, 2015

I wanted to just squeeze more from the evo 3 16g. I would like to put down mid 400hp.
I also wanted something different to experiment with. I have never had this car dynoed.
I have never ran it in the quarter mile. I want a fairly quick spool and hard pull to redline. I have ran a 20g tdo5h and it was alright. So I was curious what would happen to upgrade to a larger turbine wheel and and get a billet compressor wheel. I wonder if it's ever been done?

My title should have said evo3 16G possibilities.

JusMX141 · Apr 25, 2015

Something you guys are forgetting when making suggestions....as soon as you upgrade the compressor, it's not an Evo III 16G anymore.

Honestly the Evo III 16G has plenty of turbine flow as-is. I can't see it being able to benefit much from a larger turbine. You can't machine a factory Evo III turbine housing to accept an 06 wheel anyway....the housing is too thin.

CrackedDSM · Apr 25, 2015

What about for 2.4 duties Justin? Would an 8cm housing/TD06 combo help with some of the backpressure on a 2.4 and take away the "instaultrasoooooooperboost" aspect?

chanley talon · Apr 25, 2015

JusMX141 said:
Something you guys are forgetting when making suggestions....as soon as you upgrade the compressor, it's not an Evo III 16G anymore.

Honestly the Evo III 16G has plenty of turbine flow as-is. I can't see it being able to benefit much from a larger turbine. You can't machine a factory Evo III turbine housing to accept an 06 wheel anyway....the housing is too thin.

I thought the same until I seen a post of a damaged 7cm turbine housing from a wheel breaking. Someone I think Austin was able to fit one of the tod6 wheels in it I believe. I have the original 7cm mhi and I have the eBay knock off as well.
If it is not possible then I will forget it. I wanted try something no one has done. The results could stink but I would like to know.

JusMX141 · Apr 26, 2015

What does the shaft breaking have to do with the turbo not flowing enough? Perhaps the tune was crap, the turbo wasn't getting enough oil, or some other issue led to the failure....but I've never seen a 16G snap a turbine from excessive restriction. Unmodified Evo III 16G's have gone low 10's and trapped 130+ on cars that drove to the track:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The knockoff housings may indeed be able to be machined as such- they're cast a little thicker in the area beyond the wheels' exducer. And perhaps a TD06SL2 at 54mm would fit...but I don't see a TD06 at 55.1 or TD06H at 58.7mm clearing enough to make me feel comfortable.

Maybe on a stroker, maybe a high boost on poor-quality fuel it would perform a touch better....but the Evo III 16G is a revision of the old 38 lb/min Big 16G wheel that has been proven-capable of 42 lb/min in stock form which is already beyond the map and beyond expectations for the turbo. It's plenty of a 2.0L engine when used within the realm of boost the turbo was designed for. I just feel like you'd be wasting a bunch of money on the wheel, the machining, and the rebalance to build a laggier version of an Evo III 16G.

CrackedDSM · Apr 26, 2015

If you think backpressure and such would be reasonable with an Evo 3 16G on a 2.4 then that's good enough for me! Should be a fun ass turbo.

chanley talon · Apr 26, 2015

JusMX141 said:
What does the shaft breaking have to do with the turbo not flowing enough? Perhaps the tune was crap, the turbo wasn't getting enough oil, or some other issue led to the failure....but I've never seen a 16G snap a turbine from excessive restriction. Unmodified Evo III 16G's have gone low 10's and trapped 130+ on cars that drove to the track:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The knockoff housings may indeed be able to be machined as such- they're cast a little thicker in the area beyond the wheels' exducer. And perhaps a TD06SL2 at 54mm would fit...but I don't see a TD06 at 55.1 or TD06H at 58.7mm clearing enough to make me feel comfortable.

Maybe on a stroker, maybe a high boost on poor-quality fuel it would perform a touch better....but the Evo III 16G is a revision of the old 38 lb/min Big 16G wheel that has been proven-capable of 42 lb/min in stock form which is already beyond the map and beyond expectations for the turbo. It's plenty of a 2.0L engine when used within the realm of boost the turbo was designed for. I just feel like you'd be wasting a bunch of money on the wheel, the machining, and the rebalance to build a laggier version of an Evo III 16G.

What do you think of running a tdo5 9 blade turbine wheel in evo 3 16 g? Or a 14b in a 7cm housing and a tdo5 9 blade? Would it spool faster and increase there performance?

Thanks

pboglio · Apr 27, 2015

It's possible I'm sure. I don't believe you will get a free lunch from fitting a larger turbine wheel. The spool is about 3500 rpms and that is pretty darned good. Doing it to be different can't be argued. I thought the same trying to wring every last ounce from the EVOIII 16g. For what I paid new for it, it didn't make a lot of sense to me to send it back to retrofit a bigger wheel or even have it clipped, which would have cost at least $500 rebuild/inspection/machining labor. I put down 384 w.h.p. at AMS, then was around 405 w.h.p. before I had a chance to install my Kelford 264/264 cams when the transmission let go.

bmxfelon420 · Apr 27, 2015

I have a Big 16g on a 2.4 and it spools at 2500rpm. This is with a 1G intake manifold, I have a cyclone on the way so I'm wondering how low it will go with that setup.

JusMX141 · Apr 28, 2015

chanley talon said:
What do you think of running a tdo5 9 blade turbine wheel in evo 3 16 g? Or a 14b in a 7cm housing and a tdo5 9 blade? Would it spool faster and increase there performance?

The part you're apparently missing is you only need a much turbine flow as the compressor needs to perform. A 14B doesn't NEED a 7cm2 housing to perform- it does just fine with a 6cm2 housing....however someone going for a max-power situation may see a reduction in EGT's allowing a more-aggressive tune by running a 7cm2 housing on a 14B at the expense of some lag. I've never run the two back-to-back but from what some have reported the additional housing volume adds about 300rpms to your spool time.

I have no input on the 9-blade as they're all aftermarket. It's lighter, but the blades are also spaced further apart. The one factor that may result in quicker spool is offset by the other which may cause slower spool.

pboglio · Apr 29, 2015

Exactly. A 14b on a 7cm^2 feels terrible for the topend gains which I wouldn't consider anywhere near worth the lag. There are combinations that work and ones that don't as a total package. That same TD05H/7cm that feels like crap on a 14b actually feels good on the EVOIII 16g. The above mentioned combination turns a 300 h.p. turbo (14b for example) into something as laggy as a 400 h.p. turbo with no significant net gain in power. Similar to clipping a small 16g turbine wheel, which turns a fairly quick spooling turbo into a dog....yet at one time it was considered a "must have" modification.

Trying to spin the turbine wheel faster is also a balance, you are riding the compressor surge line on the way up, and from the map any attempt to spool faster is limited by the compressor itself. So you want a turbine section that can match the compressor in terms of flow & spool. The EVO's (i.e. EVOLUTION) simply run a massive dual scroll turbine housing to drop the turbine backpressure, but they are locking the spool pretty much where the compressor can support it. If the larger turbine wheel provided a worthwhile engineering tradeoff, they would have run it as the EVO's came with various compressor cover and turbine housing A/Rs over the years so Mitsubishi didn't lack for R&D or a willingness to make running changes.

Over the last decade, I haven't seen any vendor able to significantly improve on the EVOIII 16g as a total package (i.e. flow/power vs. lag vs. cost), which is partly why so many vendors gave up and just stocked the EVOIII 16g instead. You got a quick spooling 400 w.h.p. capable turbo for $550 to $900 that seemingly did it all. It was a widely popular turbo for a reason. From a practical standpoint the cost/benefit breakdown would push myself to simply upgrade the entire turbo as there isn't even the claim to say you pushed a 16g to "x" power because swapping a turbine wheel doesn't really make it a 16g anymore. This is primarily why I just did very mild port work to my EVOIII 16g. The chance a dsmtuner can do anything but ruin that turbo are high.

But hey, tuning is all about trying combinations and seeing what works and what doesn't.

chanley talon · May 2, 2015

pboglio said:
Exactly. A 14b on a 7cm^2 feels terrible for the topend gains which I wouldn't consider anywhere near worth the lag. There are combinations that work and ones that don't as a total package. That same TD05H/7cm that feels like crap on a 14b actually feels good on the EVOIII 16g. The above mentioned combination turns a 300 h.p. turbo (14b for example) into something as laggy as a 400 h.p. turbo with no significant net gain in power. Similar to clipping a small 16g turbine wheel, which turns a fairly quick spooling turbo into a dog....yet at one time it was considered a "must have" modification.

Trying to spin the turbine wheel faster is also a balance, you are riding the compressor surge line on the way up, and from the map any attempt to spool faster is limited by the compressor itself. So you want a turbine section that can match the compressor in terms of flow & spool. The EVO's (i.e. EVOLUTION) simply run a massive dual scroll turbine housing to drop the turbine backpressure, but they are locking the spool pretty much where the compressor can support it. If the larger turbine wheel provided a worthwhile engineering tradeoff, they would have run it as the EVO's came with various compressor cover and turbine housing A/Rs over the years so Mitsubishi didn't lack for R&D or a willingness to make running changes.

Over the last decade, I haven't seen any vendor able to significantly improve on the EVOIII 16g as a total package (i.e. flow/power vs. lag vs. cost), which is partly why so many vendors gave up and just stocked the EVOIII 16g instead. You got a quick spooling 400 w.h.p. capable turbo for $550 to $900 that seemingly did it all. It was a widely popular turbo for a reason. From a practical standpoint the cost/benefit breakdown would push myself to simply upgrade the entire turbo as there isn't even the claim to say you pushed a 16g to "x" power because swapping a turbine wheel doesn't really make it a 16g anymore. This is primarily why I just did very mild port work to my EVOIII 16g. The chance a dsmtuner can do anything but ruin that turbo are high.

But hey, tuning is all about trying combinations and seeing what works and what doesn't.

Thanks everyone i appreciate all the advice here. I was thinking of running just the 9 blade tdo5h turbine wheel. Maybe i should stick with the factory setup . I love the hit of the Evo 3 16g in first gear .The 20g i had almost has the same hit but in second gear. But it was not the true MHI. So i don't know. I want a 450 whp car really. I think i need a turbo capable of 550-600 flywheel hp to achieve this. I have all the supporting mods except the injectors. I also have alky/meth injection and cams.

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Evo 3 16 hybrid possibilities.

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