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(non-Ebay) Electric Turbocharger (Supercharger?)

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This would be for the 5KW motors correct?
EDIT: Maybe I should market this as Electric Nitrous XD

No, this was not for the 5kw motor. I was recommending FOUR 1300 watt motors that will run on 12 volts. This should eliminate the need for any Lipo batteries.

For control, all you would need is a simple WOT switch (as sold by most nitrous sellers) and a heavy duty relay. There would be no need to run this at anything less than WOT. The compressor wheel is not a significant restriction at idle and cruise.

Jim
 
No, this was not for the 5kw motor. I was recommending FOUR 1300 watt motors that will run on 12 volts. This should eliminate the need for any Lipo batteries.

For control, all you would need is a simple WOT switch (as sold by most nitrous sellers) and a heavy duty relay. There would be no need to run this at anything less than WOT. The compressor wheel is not a significant restriction at idle and cruise.

Jim
Why would you not want it running at less than WOT, this isn't strictly for racing application. Having torque down low and instant spool is the dream, why eliminate that. Sure it'll take some calibrating but that's how you design a world class system; Unless you are speaking of just for the prototype purely to prove the concept in which case that would make sense.
 
Why would you not want it running at less than WOT, this isn't strictly for racing application. Having torque down low and instant spool is the dream, why eliminate that. Sure it'll take some calibrating but that's how you design a world class system; Unless you are speaking of just for the prototype purely to prove the concept in which case that would make sense.

My thought on why you would not want it running if your less then wot , is simply if your not full throttle then you must be content with your current speed or acceleration, In reality if you have more throttle left why over complicate the system. I Like the over all idea and thought but your going to have to think this will appeal to a small amount of people. Right away the auto guys are about out of the question and anyone who half way knows how to drive a 5 speed is also out of the question. Anti lag/Launch control/ no lift to shift/ brake boosting ,does about what your trying to create. This seems like a solution to being in the wrong gear. Just some thoughts not trying to down talk the idea.
 
My thought on why you would not want it running if your less then wot , is simply if your not full throttle then you must be content with your current speed or acceleration, In reality if you have more throttle left why over complicate the system. I Like the over all idea and thought but your going to have to think this will appeal to a small amount of people. Right away the auto guys are about out of the question and anyone who half way knows how to drive a 5 speed is also out of the question. Anti lag/Launch control/ no lift to shift/ brake boosting ,does about what your trying to create. This seems like a solution to being in the wrong gear. Just some thoughts not trying to down talk the idea.
That's the point, if you are DD and taking off from a light you want down low torque. Why do you think the German big 3 make torque so darn low. Like 2000RPM low, full torque. That's what you want from a street car. This system can create that and create boost in low RPM. But the throttle still needs to be fairly linear. Difficult to achieve but very possible.
 
My thought on why you would not want it running if your less then wot , is simply if your not full throttle then you must be content with your current speed or acceleration, In reality if you have more throttle left why over complicate the system. I Like the over all idea and thought but your going to have to think this will appeal to a small amount of people. Right away the auto guys are about out of the question and anyone who half way knows how to drive a 5 speed is also out of the question. Anti lag/Launch control/ no lift to shift/ brake boosting ,does about what your trying to create. This seems like a solution to being in the wrong gear. Just some thoughts not trying to down talk the idea.

Not slowing down the idea! discussions like this help push the idea forward and encourage better ideas to come out! (I'm a big software developer open source kind of guy). I would add however that this is a little more than Anti lag/Launch control/ no lift to shift/ brake boosting as these things require time. This motor will essentially take the time out of this. IE. In Anti lag/launch control, you have to stay on the throttle until you have desired boost and launch. now imagine the same system but it activates immediately on WOT. Someone mentioned that this will be a lot like nitrous as you're getting a relatively large pressurized system in a small amount of time. so think of going WOT and BAM in less than a second you've hit 10PSI right off the batt (teehee). The car will run at 10PSI continuously until a preset 16 second (or less) counter cuts the motor back to normal (This is on a per WOT basis to control with overheating. And 20 seconds is the max the 10KW motor can run at peak safely). This would make me think that it would be amazing for auto... there's no more waiting to spool; the spool is just there when you go WOT which is the benefit of electrical motors.

I like comparing this system more and more to nitrous because they both follow a similar principle of "When you're out of juice; You're out of juice" and "When you go WOT; all hell breaks loose". The benefit of this system is that you wouldn't have to buy bottles of nitrous when you run out.. I could easily come up with a wall charger type setting if I really had to at little cost. would you rather go out and buy bottles of nitrous, or would you rather spend 4 bucks in recharging your nitrous like system.

I'd like to say that this is not meant to replace your performance turbo's.. it's meant to supplement them! (I say performance as there is an MPG benefit with the right amount of tweaking and Pressure which opens up the eco market as Chumpaumpalumpa pointed out). On top of this.. the entire system can be compounded easily. If you want 10 more instant PSI (meaning you want 20PSI as soon as you go WOT) then you can easily buy another motor and mount it behind mine (I'm developing a stacking feature). With this amount of power however... we really need to be careful.

That's the point, if you are DD and taking off from a light you want down low torque. Why do you think the German big 3 make torque so darn low. Like 2000RPM low, full torque. That's what you want from a street car. This system can create that and create boost in low RPM. But the throttle still needs to be fairly linear. Difficult to achieve but very possible.

Agreed. The beauty of this is that this is all software. I can set this with different types of configurable settings where you can make it a 1 step compressor which activates at WOT, 2 step which activates it at 25% running/idle and 100% at WOT, or the variable approach where the throttle percentage would equal the motor percentage (47% throttle = 47% of max KW). Heck.. I might even consider selling software where people can just enter their own values and set it up in a way it works for them best.

I can do the software bit without a sweat :)

I would like to thank you all for the input! I wouldn't of gotten this far if it wasn't because of you guys! LOL Heck, if I ever start selling these and make a profit; I'm sure we'd discuss a nice steep "DSM Helper" discount :D
 
The software ideally should be setup per car (different mods=different settings) and be based on RPM & TPS parameters so you get the ideal amount of spool/boost with every situation. Imagine incorporating this into ECMlink. Also the system should be run off the cars 12v system so there is no need for recharging and it wouldn't be anywhere close to $4. Maybe 4 cents haha Either way this will be ideal for autocross and could help manual cars as well with the spool between shifts without the extra strain of true NLTS or Anti-Lag or 2-step even.
 
When I first mentioned a WOT switch, I was thinking simplicity. While I still think this set-up would only be needed at WOT (like nitrous), I like the programing idea more and more. When I first installed nitrous on my car, I had to install a longer TB stud and do some grinding on the IM for the WOT switch. Programing this would be simpler.

This E-turbo, on it's own, would produce very high boost at low RPM. It could even produce boost at idle (not that you would want any boost at idle though). Remember, boost is a function of the CFM requirements of the engine vs the CFM supplied by the E-turbo. At very low RPM, lets say 2000 Rpm, boost would be very high. As RPM increases, boost would drop off. At 7000 RPM, boost would be approaching zero due to the high CFM requirement of the engine.

The ideal set-up for the E-charger, would be as a compound set-up using a normal turbocharger. You would get high boost at a very low RPM but boost would not drop off at high RPM. You could program the E-charger to gradually turn off as RPM increased. This would delay the wastegate from opening and extract more power from the turbocharger. This would also save a lot in battery life.

Now might be a good time to think about packaging the system. With the E-charger alone, you would want an intercooler after the E-charger. With a compound set-up, ideally you would want an intercooler after the turbocharger and after the E-charger. With the E-charger programed to turn off at high RPM, you could eliminate the second intercooler.

Jim

 
When I first mentioned a WOT switch, I was thinking simplicity. While I still think this set-up would only be needed at WOT (like nitrous), I like the programing idea more and more. When I first installed nitrous on my car, I had to install a longer TB stud and do some grinding on the IM for the WOT switch. Programing this would be simpler.

This E-turbo, on it's own, would produce very high boost at low RPM. It could even produce boost at idle (not that you would want any boost at idle though). Remember, boost is a function of the CFM requirements of the engine vs the CFM supplied by the E-turbo. At very low RPM, lets say 2000 Rpm, boost would be very high. As RPM increases, boost would drop off. At 7000 RPM, boost would be approaching zero due to the high CFM requirement of the engine.

The ideal set-up for the E-charger, would be as a compound set-up using a normal turbocharger. You would get high boost at a very low RPM but boost would not drop off at high RPM. You could program the E-charger to gradually turn off as RPM increased. This would delay the wastegate from opening and extract more power from the turbocharger. This would also save a lot in battery life.

Now might be a good time to think about packaging the system. With the E-charger alone, you would want an intercooler after the E-charger. With a compound set-up, ideally you would want an intercooler after the turbocharger and after the E-charger. With the E-charger programed to turn off at high RPM, you could eliminate the second intercooler.

Jim
Yes a compound setup would definitely be ideal. And yes it is more of an e-charger since there is no turbine side it cannot be classified as a turbocharger. It's technically an Electrically driven centrifugal supercharger. But you could have no boost at idle and as soon as you touch the throttle spool to 7-10 psi minimum and tune the maps accordingly. I think a 14b E3-16G/hta68 compound setup would absolutely rock!!
 
Well Im thinking with boost coming on that soon it will either knock and you will have to pull timming or something in the drive line wouldn't be to happy with it. Maybe I'm not understanding your consept as I wouldn't consider this Eco (wouldn't you be burning more fuel with more time being in boost?). As for anti lag taking time with a 14b or 16g car it's very minimal 1-2 seconds your at 2-4 psi and as soon as you start letting the clutch out its almost instant to your boost or wastegate pressure. And im thinking if you didant know you wanted to take off at a faster then normal speed 2 seconds before your going to start moving there's another problem. Besides that i wouldant be worried about it running for 20 seconds , I think a pressure switch to deactivate it as I can only see it being helpful untell the main turbo starts doing its job. A vgt turbo also produces a similar result and from what I've seen knock Becomes the problem with very low rpm boost/rapid spool up.
 
But you could have no boost at idle and as soon as you touch the throttle spool to 7-10 psi minimum and tune the maps accordingly. !

I would not recommend this. 7-10 psi, immediately off idle with just a cracked open throttle, could lead to very poor drivability.

Jim
 
Well Im thinking with boost coming on that soon it will either knock and you will have to pull timming or something in the drive line wouldn't be to happy with it. Maybe I'm not understanding your consept as I wouldn't consider this Eco (wouldn't you be burning more fuel with more time being in boost?). As for anti lag taking time with a 14b or 16g car it's very minimal 1-2 seconds your at 2-4 psi and as soon as you start letting the clutch out its almost instant to your boost or wastegate pressure. And im thinking if you didant know you wanted to take off at a faster then normal speed 2 seconds before your going to start moving there's another problem. Besides that i wouldant be worried about it running for 20 seconds , I think a pressure switch to deactivate it as I can only see it being helpful untell the main turbo starts doing its job. A vgt turbo also produces a similar result and from what I've seen knock Becomes the problem with very low rpm boost/rapid spool up.

You have all valid points here. Too much boost at too low RPM can cause knock.

Jim
 
That's why I was thinking of limiting it to 2,500 rpm or higher , just like nitrous. There's a reason why it's not allowed to come on below that, what if you make the control system progressive and tune it to come on at say 2600 and limit speed so boost is like 5psi. Then it could ramp up to 10 at 3000 or how ever we wanted to make it somewhat of a smooth transition. Does anyone know if surge will be an issue for the 14b at these low rpm's?
 
That's why I was thinking of limiting it to 2,500 rpm or higher , just like nitrous. There's a reason why it's not allowed to come on below that, what if you make the control system progressive and tune it to come on at say 2600 and limit speed so boost is like 5psi. Then it could ramp up to 10 at 3000 or how ever we wanted to make it somewhat of a smooth transition. Does anyone know if surge will be an issue for the 14b at these low rpm's?
2000 rpm and 7psi is fine on 91 octane. Audi does it with absolutely no problems. In fact they hit about 10Psi at 2300RPM in the 2.0T and they don't surge obviously. It's all about the tune.
 
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I would not recommend this. 7-10 psi, immediately off idle with just a cracked open throttle, could lead to very poor drivability.

Jim
Sorry I meant if you say just floored it from idle in an auto of took off quickish in a manual you could have those conditions, not just cracking the throttle. With that, maybe 2-3 psi until 2500 rpm and ramp up as mentioned. This is not a one tune/program fits all situation, different throttle inputs and RPM and loads and conditions means different boost levels desired, never mind driving style. You cant have it coded to do one thing no matter the situation, then it will drive terribly.
 
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That's why I was thinking of limiting it to 2,500 rpm or higher , just like nitrous. There's a reason why it's not allowed to come on below that, what if you make the control system progressive and tune it to come on at say 2600 and limit speed so boost is like 5psi. Then it could ramp up to 10 at 3000 or how ever we wanted to make it somewhat of a smooth transition. Does anyone know if surge will be an issue for the 14b at these low rpm's?

So like a water/meth map sensor progressive control kinda... But thos boost figures sound just like driving a normal 14b car or t25 with out the added parts.
 
wow! I love the back and forth from this thread. I think it's safe to say that I will be including software for this that controls "PSI" or "KW" per throttle percentage and just have everyone plug in their own values! Having said that.. I've been researching for a bit and I think I may have stumbled on a pot of gold... I contact a separate RC motor company and they are selling a motor with the following specs for $200 bucks!

Inrunner Brushless Motor 6-Pole

T: 4Y

K/V: 1000

Max Amps: 240

Max Volts: 50

Max Watts (Peak): 12000

RPM: 50K

This is 12,000 watts... so approximately good for 12ish PSI which makes me giddish LOL. This would make the turbo completely affordable!!! what are everyone thoughts? are there any benefits in comparison to the neumotors? are there questions I should ask this motor company?

Thanks all!

EDIT: for day dreamers like me... they offer a 25,000 watt motor for $600 dollars.... LOL I think I found my performance line motor! haha
 
wow! I love the back and forth from this thread. I think it's safe to say that I will be including software for this that controls "PSI" or "KW" per throttle percentage and just have everyone plug in their own values! Having said that.. I've been researching for a bit and I think I may have stumbled on a pot of gold... I contact a separate RC motor company and they are selling a motor with the following specs for $200 bucks!

Inrunner Brushless Motor 6-Pole

T: 4Y

K/V: 1000

Max Amps: 240

Max Volts: 50

Max Watts (Peak): 12000

RPM: 50K

This is 12,000 watts... so approximately good for 12ish PSI which makes me giddish LOL. This would make the turbo completely affordable!!! what are everyone thoughts? are there any benefits in comparison to the neumotors? are there questions I should ask this motor company?

Thanks all!

EDIT: for day dreamers like me... they offer a 25,000 watt motor for $600 dollars.... LOL I think I found my performance line motor! haha
Sounds good, but obviously you cant run off the cars electrical system and Hi-po Lipos are very expensive just remember!! Plus a good balance charger can cost 70-100 bucks. Is this motor the Leopard that @jim95redgsx mentioned earlier? Or a form of it?
 
Sounds good, but obviously you cant run off the cars electrical system and Hi-po Lipos are very expensive just remember!! Plus a good balance charger can cost 70-100 bucks. Is this motor the Leopard that @jim95redgsx mentioned earlier? Or a form of it?

Definitely not the leopard motor as this motor is producing 10.7 KW more power. They mentioned a 27 volt version but I'd need a ESC rated for 400amps which is not impossible, but 300 bucks. motor plus esc would be $500 bucks total. plus Arduino, cabling, solder, etc.. $50 bucks. custom shaft, 150 bucks. Casing still in the air (Playing with ABS plastic sprayed with thermal resistant paint.) but will make it 150 bucks as well.

That's $850 for parts alone not including battery system. I can round up $150 more for labor and such and I would be able to sell a battery-less unit for $1,000 dollars.. A little more expensive than I wanted it to be.. But considering the E-turbo competition that's almost twice as this producing 5-6 PSI.. I'd say it's pretty fair. Regardless, I don't want to pay too much attention to the numbers. I'm sure I can get them down with group buys and bulk orders.

I could sell this in two versions. a low voltage High amp version (27volts but 420 amps) which would be a little more expensive but more battery friendly or a high voltage moderate amp (50 volts 240 amps) which would be cheaper (by $100 bucks or so) but present a complicated battery issue as you would need a 50V set up.

As far as the prototype is concerned.. I might go with the first option. while It's a bit more expensive, I could create a 27volt battery with more AHwith higher amps easier than a 50V with lower amps battery.

Thoughts?
 
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@jim95redgsx so I just got off the phone with another electrical motor company and they actually sell a 12 KW motor that spins at 100,000RPM ( possibly 120,000RPM in short bursts). What are your thoughts? This would most definitely eliminate the gear box/oil complexity for sure. Do you guys think this is the way to go? or should I stick with the gear driven set-up?
 
It would certainly be simpler to run this in direct drive with no gears. I assume that 100,000 RPM is the KV (NO LOAD) rating of that motor. If you look at the 14b compressor map, 70,000 RPM is right at the bottom of the map. There will be NO significant air compression below 70,000 RPM.

I'm not sure how much the RPM will drop with the load of the 14b compressor. It will not drop as far as it would with your 4:1 gear system. The RPM will drop until the horsepower required by the compressor wheel matches the horsepower output of the motor. At 12,000 watts, the RPM may not drop very far from it's KV rating.

Jim
 
For those that were looking for more math, I found this:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/compressor-efficiency-and-temperature.399534/

The equation that I posted on page 5, post #109, for finding the required horsepower to drive a compressor, was very basic. The equation in that link above includes the effects of temperature and air compression. You'll see that the required horsepower is even higher. The chart in that link shows 20.1 HP for 30 lb/min and 2:1 PR and this is at 100% compressor efficiency. I originally calculated 17.25 HP under the same conditions and 65% efficiency.

Jim
 
It would certainly be simpler to run this in direct drive with no gears. I assume that 100,000 RPM is the KV (NO LOAD) rating of that motor. If you look at the 14b compressor map, 70,000 RPM is right at the bottom of the map. There will be NO significant air compression below 70,000 RPM.

I'm not sure how much the RPM will drop with the load of the 14b compressor. It will not drop as far as it would with your 4:1 gear system. The RPM will drop until the horsepower required by the compressor wheel matches the horsepower output of the motor. At 12,000 watts, the RPM may not drop very far from it's KV rating.

Jim
Additionally, because it is more efficient, you should get longer run time if you go the battery route.
 
It would certainly be simpler to run this in direct drive with no gears. I assume that 100,000 RPM is the KV (NO LOAD) rating of that motor. If you look at the 14b compressor map, 70,000 RPM is right at the bottom of the map. There will be NO significant air compression below 70,000 RPM.

I'm not sure how much the RPM will drop with the load of the 14b compressor. It will not drop as far as it would with your 4:1 gear system. The RPM will drop until the horsepower required by the compressor wheel matches the horsepower output of the motor. At 12,000 watts, the RPM may not drop very far from it's KV rating.

Jim

That's what I'm hoping for. I haven't received the specs of the motor as I'm still communicating with the company about the needs of this application and should hopefully have some estimates (including pricing) by the end of the week or so. Another valid thing to think about is that perhaps a 14b isn't the proper turbo for this application? I just wanted the 14b because everyone seems to have one laying around in their garage and thought it would be cool to create a conversion kit. but given the circumstances; I'm curious to know if there is a turbo out there that will do magic with the electric motor.. There are so many turbo's LOL so I'm sure there has to be one that will provide us with the proper map to perhaps even make more power than the 14b with an electrical motor that will presumably spin at 110k rpm (subtracting 5,000 RPM for load loss). Just some food for thought.

As a side note, I may go with Delta windings as a quick search online says they are good for top end torque. I think this is crucial as we will need all the torque we can get top end for successful compression. The cons to this is that it will have low end torque.. Thoughts? perhaps I'm thinking about this the wrong way and should emphasize on more low end torque from the electrical motor for quicker compression. Good to see that this should be making a decent amount of power though. a 12kw motor with a direct drive compressor will reduce the length of the shaft by more than half which means that it will have less to spin which will get up to speed faster.

I gotta say that I'm very pleased with this approach instead of the gear driven approach.. no oil, less maintenance, less points of failure, greater efficiency; etc.. etc.

For those that were looking for more math, I found this:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/compressor-efficiency-and-temperature.399534/

The equation that I posted on page 5, post #109, for finding the required horsepower to drive a compressor, was very basic. The equation in that link above includes the effects of temperature and air compression. You'll see that the required horsepower is even higher. The chart in that link shows 20.1 HP for 30 lb/min and 2:1 PR and this is at 100% compressor efficiency. I originally calculated 17.25 HP under the same conditions and 65% efficiency.

Jim

This is most definitely good to know. I'm assuming this is why Volvo (I think?) is using the electrical super charger to assist the larger one. If we were to put the electrical super charger by the TB; It would be sucking hot air from the larger turbo... some might say; that's why the intercoolers are there but; considering that this is an off-the-line approach, the intercooler wont be doing much cooling right?

This then opens the question of what is the best place to mount the E-Charger. if it's closer to the TB; it has less space to fill with air thus the "nitrous" effect. if you put it to feed the larger turbo; then it has to build pressure through the IC piping which will result in slight lag.

Thoughts?

Additionally, because it is more efficient, you should get longer run time if you go the battery route.

very good point! The direct drive approach definitely helps with efficiency by a ton. my hope is to get 110k RPM from the motor under load. Another thing to consider (As I mentioned above) is whether or not the 14b is the proper turbo for this application. I wonder if there are turbo's out there with a better map.. Any one want to take a crack at finding the best turbo for this application that will compress the most air efficiently?

Lots of good thoughts going around considering this large "REDO" per say.

Tomorrow I should be printing the direct drive motor/shaft holder and will post a pic once it's done.

EDIT: Would the solution be to get a larger turbo such as the 16G as the wheels churn in more air? our static variables (for lack of a better word is motor power and RPM's). If we have the same power and same RPM's; would the larger compressor wheel compress more air at 110k RPM's than a 14b?
 
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