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2G Alignment a little crazy

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Zufelt

Proven Member
533
9
Oct 15, 2012
Lemoore, California
What part of the car is that? The V shaped front part where the radiator mounts? if so same happen to me actually much worse but anyway 2 option either got to a shop that does body work and bend it back or if it's to damaged like headlights won't align radiator brackets etc you can cut and weld another frame it's fairly "easy" job!
I would recommend both bolts there remember the front mount is there too!
 
Ouch. That sucks. I agree with eclipsyco. If you can't go that route, then make a bigger hole.
 
Sorry to hear about the accident. Have you tried to use a come along chain hoist? I had the same issue before and straightened it out with one. Metal has a tendency to bounce back a little so you might have to pull a little farther past where it looks right. How does the crossmember look now?
 
Thanks for the reply guys.. Unfortunately it's not as easy. I can't really pull on it as the bolt hole is slanted, but the core support is straight.. It almost needs to be popped out. I aligned everything back so good closes and all is we'll.. Just the crossmember bolt hole. The cross member was pretty dented, and chewed up from sliding. I have one to replace it if I can find a way to pop this hole out.
 
I'd say, either bore the hole or you could try putting a clamp on it and pulling the clamp to straighten it.
 
I agree. The right way to do it is to cut the old one out and weld a new one in after you know everything is straightened. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but the right way isn't the easy way....
 
You could thread in a bolt, use a oxy/gas torch to heat it red hot and it should pull fairly easy with a come along or hitting the bolt with a big hammer while its glowing hot. Otherwise a body shop with a frame machine can straighten it for you.
 
What's up guys, I had a little accident with the DSM about a week ago which rendered me to replace the knuckle and the lower control arm as well as the hub assembly in the rear.

Well I went to get an alignment yesterday and the toe on the right rear (that I hit) is still outta whack. I have a chart of what I'm working with which I'll post after work. I talked with the guy who aligned my car and he said that I should also replace the control arm and ball joint assembly in the rear. Assuming there isn't any structural damage (which I'm almost positive there isn't), wouldn't this be the last piece to replace to get my toe in alignment?

My other question is that during the accident, my steering wheel seems to be at 2 o'clock while driving straight. Rack and pinion seem fine, and both are evenly adjusted. Is this something I can fix via the steering column? I'll post up the pictures in a couple hours, just wanted to post this now to get it all going. Thanks for any help fellers.
 
Not knowing what all happened to the car it sounds like it's trying to 'crab' or move sideways ever so slightly. A thing like that can happen if a rear wheel got pushed back (or forward) or twisted to the side a little. Basically the rear wheels are not tracking straight with the body.
 
I agree with you, I forgot to mention that I did have the car on stands and noticed it doing as said above, but replaced the hub and bearing and didn't check it after..

What would be the fix for something like that? I have pictures I'll will post up here shortly. I apologize, my phone died and I'm now using the computer. I was coming down off a mountain, and ended up sliding hitting a little ditch. It popped the tire off of the bead, bent my lower control arm, what looked like bent part of the mating surface from knuckle to hub, so I went ahead and replaced them both.

I then drove the car while on stands and it wanted to sort of "crab" back as you said back and forth ever so slightly. I figured the hub assembly and wheel bearing were shot, so I replaced those and took the car for a test drive. It drives great, and feels fine (aside from the 2 oclock when going straight). But the adjustment shop says otherwise.

I'll check to see if the wheel is still crabbing after the hub was replaced sometime tomorrow. For now here are the pictures of what the alignment is currently as I didn't have them adjust anything until I get the rear right toe in adjustment. From all the red I'm seeing it's not looking all that great, but I'm not by any means inclined when it comes to understanding suspension. Also added, are some pictures of the accident.

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Let's start with what happened. Did you back into a curb? And a fix can be anything from replacing a bent component to straightening bent/dented subframe. Could also be a damaged bushing that finally gave way. With wheels off the ground can you move the wheel in question forward and back? If so then a bushing is probably at fault or something is broken, or that balljoint is loose. If the wheel does not move and nothing is obviously damaged start measuring between pivot points of the suspention and comparing measurements between both sides (unless both wheels were damaged). That way you can find out exactly what component is damaged and what needs to be fixed.
 
Let's start with what happened. Did you back into a curb? And a fix can be anything from replacing a bent component to straightening bent/dented subframe. Could also be a damaged bushing that finally gave way. With wheels off the ground can you move the wheel in question forward and back? If so then a bushing is probably at fault or something is broken, or that balljoint is loose. If the wheel does not move and nothing is obviously damaged start measuring between pivot points of the suspention and comparing measurements between both sides (unless both wheels were damaged). That way you can find out exactly what component is damaged and what needs to be fixed.
My apologizes, my phone died half way through my message, which is finished at the top. I'll take measurements (should have thought of that prior) and see if there is any difference. The tire does not move back and forth, side to side whatsoever which is what threw me off. I'll be measuring that control arm and ball joint assembly that I haven't replaced yet though with my other set I have. That's the only thing that has NOT been replaced on that side.
 
Was wandering what happened to that post.

The "thrust angle" on their diagram is how much "crabbing" your car is doing. 0.88 of a degree might not seem like much, but if you move forward one car lengths with front wheels straight then the back will move about 1.5" inches toward passenger side.

Also forgot to mention that you should measure not only suspension components, but also their mounting points. Find some good reference points under the middle of the car (usually there will be holes or bolts that are obviously symmetrical) and go from there. That way you can be sure the structure of your car is not damaged.
 
Hey GS, I appreciate your comment back, I didn't get to see your edit while I was back there.

I decided to go ahead and remove the control arm and ball joint assembly because I couldn't really measure out a difference. Once it was off I put it side by side to my "old" one that is known to be good. The known good one is about 3/8ths shorter than the one that I had during the accident. I'm not sure how big of a difference this makes.

It's pretty hard to tell in the pictures. I'm sorry the photo is blurry.. Unfortunately I'm stuck with my iPhone and it doesn't like to take very good pictures.

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Here is an edited picture to sort of give you somewhat of an idea the difference between the two. Please remember that this line is me eyeballing it to get it straight, the program wouldn't let me mark from line to line.

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From top, to top.

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Another concern of mine is that with negative toe, wouldn't this being shorter actually increase it into the negative even more? I thought I was needing to push the rear end of the tire out, not closer in.
 
My thinking was when the wheel hit the momentum of the car actually pulled something. Seems that it's exactly what happened so properly sized part would simply return everything back to normal position. No need to try to predict outcome though. Go ahead and replace the part, drive the car, and see if it helped. Don't go too fast or too far though, at least until an alignment is done.
 
You Bent the Unibody frame somewhere.

Impacts hard enough to blow your tires will cause severe damage to your suspension and more then likely damage to the Unibody.

I just recently went through this.. but on the front passenger side.

Replaced every part and was still out of specs. Had to pull and weld the upper control arm mounting points. 450$ in labor to give you an estimate.

Take it to a frame alignment shop, a respectable one, do your research first, and check out the companies reviews!
 
I hope that's not the case Rough, and GS I still don't understand how replacing the part will stop the wheel from crabbing. Also, what should I be looking for while driving? The car drives fine prior on the road, so should I put it on stands and see if I can't see the back an forth movement?
 
Just looking for clarification on that alignment sheet, is the "before" the same as the "after" that doesn't fully show? I'd have a hard time swallowing that the car drives great with almost 2 degrees of toe in the front. This would also explain why the steering wheel is not centered - the tie rods were bent in the incident, or it could simply be a result of having your fronts pointing one way, your rears pointing the other and that's how much you have to turn the steering wheel to match the rear.. But I definitely could be jumping the gun without knowing the details. :sneaky:
 
I wouldn't go by how the car feels. A car that feels "ok" can wear out tires real quick (usually too much toe in). Toe-out feels "dart-y." Use measurements.

From the alignment sheet it looks like your rear subframe may be shifted to the left. You may be able to loosen those rusted bolts/nuts and yank it back to the right. I'm not sure what your goals are with the car. If you are just daily driving, getting your F&R toe set proper is the main goal. If you are worried about the LR camber, a couple washers between the upper control arm and body will reduce that.

If you are looking for a project... you got one. If you are looking for a fix... it probably isn't that much work.

Learning to do your own alignment will save a lot of frustration.... Keep in mind that learning to doing your own alignment will cause more frustration.

You can use a tape-measure to do your own alignment (or just figure stuff out). It is very sensitive to your measurement methods. googling alignment shows guys who have made this way to complex. Below is a link. Never measure or set up guides from front to back tires. track width is never the same F/R, this will only confuse you. tires with circumferential tread rings make alignment easier.

below is from from thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/rack-and-pinion-preload.402865/#post-152599912

You can do an alignment at home with a buddy and tape measure. measure distance between Left/Right tires from tire-tread-center at both the "front and rear" of the front-tire-set (straight shot measure - no touch of tape to car). For about 0.1deg toe-in your front measurement should be about 1/8" shorter than the back measurement.

That said, everything effects your ability to measure alignment correct and accurate. Most of all your ride height. Don't take your car off of a jack and then measure alignment... or jab the brakes to a halt to park before measuring. If you don't understand this last statement, chances are you don't have the background to precisely align your front end.

new advise:
measure your toe of the wheel-set. Drive around the block and re-measure it. I'll bet your 2nd measurement is different from your first, even though you didn't change anything. (hint... it is your ride height). when I measure toe I slowly roll the vehicle in neutral and try not to use the brakes. Brakes will pitch the vehicle, and friction in the suspension & tires to pavement will cause the suspension to stick at a certain ride height. You can measure ride-height also... but that is also a very precise measurement. FYI since you are measuring rear toe... rear toe is much less sensitive to ride height.
 
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Great information guys, I appreciate the links and replies. Just for clarification the before and after are the same. Once we saw the toe was as it is, I decided to align another day and see if I couldn't figure this out. As far as the rack and pinion, nothing looks bent, but I suppose that doesn't say much. I'll be looking under the car shortly to try and find out what's going on with the rear.

Just got done looking and trying to measure it all.. Unfortunately I don't visually see anything wrong, and can't seem to come up with any mismatched measurements. Then again I don't exactly understand what point from another to measure from. Gotta work now though, still don't understand why the wheel would "crab" unless it was moving with the wheel like a wheel bearing. I have yet to look at the front.
 
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