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Proportioning Vlave Brake Upgrade

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mitecl96

10+ Year Contributor
460
9
Feb 20, 2012
McMinnville, Tennessee
First off the car is non-ABS. I am looking into doing the Outlander brake upgrade. After doing some research I seen some great point about just upgrading the front brakes. With the front brakes working better the car will be more front bias cause the rear brakes to barely even work cause the car to really not brake any different (front brakes working more, back brakes working less). Because of how our cars are split diagonally getting an aftermarket adjustable proportional valve is out of the question because I would need two and dialing in two valve to be the exact same would be impossible (one side would brake stronger causing a pull).
Another problem that is faced is that with the bigger brakes would need more fluid causing the master cylinder to need upgraded also, than what you face with a better master cylinder is the booster would also need to be upgraded also. (love the domino effect here :thumb:)

Well this is when I really started searching and thinking. First idea was looking at the Outlander's complete braking system. Mitsubishi really didn't change the brake brakes on their cars for a long time, literally everything is the same. Same rotors and pads for a 95 Eclipse and a 06 Outlander. Even the Outlander rear calipers will bolt to an Eclipse and even the parking brake is the same. I figured why the hell not and just put Outlander brakes front and rear even if no difference.

Well started looking at what to do about the proportional valve and master cylinder. Well couldn't find much on the Outlander proportional valve but looking into that seen a post about an 06 Lancer RS non-ABS and that the proportional valve is built into the master cylinder, seemed kinda interesting but couldn't find much else about it. Got me thinking though the Lancer is a bigger car than the Eclipse, with more rear end which leaves me guessing that the rear brakes would get more braking than an eclipse would and brakes are bigger in the front than a Lancer. :hmm: My favorite thing I seen also is that the reservoir is mounted onto of the master cylinder so cleans the engine bay, the same way as using the 3g Eclipse master cylinder in our cars but with an advantage, it also is the clutch reservoir :hellyeah:cleaning the bay even more.

Just the idea in my head looks like a better idea. Still doing research though not sure if the Outlander with non-ABS using the same idea having the proportional valve in the master cylinder. The idea of just taking the complete braking system from the Outlander and putting it in the Eclipse seems like a good idea because I am going to be using the calipers anyways, but the thought of the Outlander being a heavier car than the Eclipse would make the brakes supper touchy being in the lighter Eclipse.

Also depending on the master cylinder that would be best to use I would also use the matching booster seeing that all the mounting is the same between the 3 different cars.

Well I lied about one thing. The 4 door Lancer is actually lighter than the fat Eclipse, forgot how much these cars weigh. :banghead:

Here is the Curb Weight of the three.

Eclipse 2899 lbs.

Lancer 2745 lbs.

Outlander 3241 lbs.

Remember this is me brainstorming and came here to get other people's thoughts and ideas and I appreciate any help or criticism. All is help that's how the best ideas become reality :thumb:
 
All of your ideas make sense, and also raise some good points. If I were building an all out track car, I may consider some of these things more seriously. But, for a street car, I would just do what has been proven to work. Meaning, swap in the larger rotors and calipers, and pick a factory prop valve that is closest to your desired split point. So, if you would like to increase rear bias, pick a prop valve with a lower split point.
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In regard to the brake master cylinder, the stock master cylinder on most DSMs will be more than sufficient for the Outlander calipers. No upgrade is necessary. I know this, because the Outlander calipers are the same 2 piston calipers that come stock on all Galant VR4s; and the Galant VR4 shares the same brake master as the AWD ABS equipped DSMs. Simply, a stock DSM ABS brake master (and other similar non-ABS masters) will work just fine. If you want to improve your pedal feel a bit, select a brake master with a slightly larger bore. The 3G master fits the bill, and does a good job cleaning up the firewall as you mentioned.

Speaking as someone who has done a brake upgrade with OEM components, you shouldn't expect any drastic changes in brake performance. Most noticeably, you'll have a better pedal feel and slightly improved stopping. It definitely helps to upgrade to larger rotors and such, but real stopping power comes from aftermarket setups that are properly tuned...And those cost big money. Honestly, a sticky set of pads, vented rotors, and fresh DOT 4 fluid installed in a properly working brake system are typically the best "upgrades" someone could do on a stock car. Just keep in mind, a real set of sticky brake pads will be aggressive, and will substantially decrease rotor life. You'll need to find a happy medium on a street car.

The important thing here is, that you clearly realize there is more to brake upgrades than throwing bigger shit on all four corners of the car and calling it a racekar. If you want that extra bit of brake performance using OEM components, it will take some extra parts and work. But, with some experimentation, it can be done. Start with what works, make some improvements, test them out, and then come back and tell all of us so we can benefit from all your hard work ;)
 
You do bring up some good points. I am in the process of planning my next car that will mostly be autocrossed and if I can ever find a budget friendly track near by. The car will only be driven on the streets on the weekend and when my daily is down. I have got the power plant figured out on the car but the biggest factor in autocross is suspension and braking which I am spending the most of my research and planning. The goal is a great budget autocross car. I could do an all out balls to the wall money hungry build but see way to many. I want something totally crazy and different, trying new things. The Outlander big brake kit will do great and getting drilled and slotted rotors to help. I know these cars don't have the best breaks. The car has a long of goals and have 3 note books full of information to achieve the desired goals.

My plan is not to just go bigger on everything but upgrading one thing and than figure out the problems that will follow the domino effect. I like the 3g master cylinder and how it helps clean the bay but with the Lancer master cylinder it has a nipple to go to the clutch master cylinder but looking I wonder if the Lancer reservoir will fit onto the 3g master cylinder. I like the fact that the 3g is a 1 5/8" bore and the biggest you can get in the Outlander is a 1" bore. Didn't think of that something I missed.

If I could figure out what proportional valve to use that works for the but need to know what the 2g proportional valve split point is. Anyone know?
 
On my 1g build I am using a 3kgt vr4 brake booster and master cylinder to go with the front 3kgt vr4 4 piston calipers and going to run a SSBC adjustable brake proportioning valve. This one actually: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ssb-a0730pl . I'll just run one hard line to the back and T it to each side back, 2 front lines off of the valve and dial in the proportioning once its running and driving. Hope this gives you help or another idea.
 
I have been thinking about doing the same thing. I like to be able to dial in and tune the breaks like GST with Boost said. Would be awesome to find someone who makes a adjustable proportional valve that is split like ours. I'm sure it would sell like hot cakes.

I know this is more of a brainstorming tread and loving all the opinions so far. Keep them coming.
 
I like the 3g master cylinder and how it helps clean the bay but with the Lancer master cylinder it has a nipple to go to the clutch master cylinder but looking I wonder if the Lancer reservoir will fit onto the 3g master cylinder. I like the fact that the 3g is a 1 5/8" bore and the biggest you can get in the Outlander is a 1" bore. Didn't think of that something I missed.

If I could figure out what proportional valve to use that works for the but need to know what the 2g proportional valve split point is. Anyone know?

Actually, the 3G brake master cylinder bore is 1 1/16", not 1 5/8". The stock ABS DSM AWD master should be 1", and the FWD w/ABS is 15/16". A larger brake (not to be confused with break) caliper typically would require a master with a larger bore unless you want that mushy shit feel when braking.

I like having the clutch and brake masters separated, especially on a performance oriented car. Separate reservoirs give the clutch and brake systems redundancy, so that issues with the brake system do not affect the clutch system, and vice versa. Some reservoirs which incorporate the clutch and brake reservoirs into a single component are divided to somewhat prevent this, however, I'm not sure if the Lancer master cylinder you are referring to is one of them. This is something to take into consideration as well when building a track car.

A mostly stock brake system would be fine on an autocross car, IMO. Just do the few simple things I said by adding a sticky set of pads, vented rotors, and a good DOT 4 fluid. Most importantly, confirm the system is in good health and working properly. Autocross usually consists of repeated short sprints followed by quick, heavy braking...Then rinse and repeat. If the system is unable to dissipate heat fast enough between braking events, you may need to upgrade a bit. But I think in most cases, your car will never see the high speed and prolonged braking periods where a true track car suffers from brake fade and such. Of course, each autocross event is different, but I think a properly functioning brake system with moderate upgrades would meet your goals.

I'm not saying cheap out on your brakes, or that they aren't important. But, for your goals, your money may be better spent in the suspension department or something. Start small, attend an autocross event and see how the car performs. If the brakes leave much to be desired, then do more upgrades. If they get the job done, then smile and pat yourself on the back for saving money that can be spent on mods that go toward meeting your other goals for the car.
 
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Without knowing any specs on the Outlander setup, as was posted above I doubt you'll required a larger MC,booster or different proportioning valve for the setup to work properly, the stock 1" awd MC should be fine.

I'm running the stock 1" MC with Wilwood 6 piston calipers up front & the Evo Brembo calipers in the rear (would assume larger then the Outlander setup). Stock booster as well & no issues, pedal feel is great & this is with lapping the car as well.

Biggest bang for your buck would be to swap to a better pad compound.
 
Outlander calipers are the same as any 2 pot Mitsu caliper. Only brackets and rotors are different.

Just get 3g master cylinder and upgrade to SS brake lines.

Unless you want to change the bias of brakes, the stock prop valve is good.
 
If your goal is mostly for autocross, I would honestly only change fluid, pads, SS lines, and blank rotors (cheap and effective). I pull the fuse to disable the ABS for events. You really should consider what class you want to run before throwing parts at your car. You will find that most money should go to suspension and tires.

For autocross, I have been happy with the hawk HP+. Good bite with little warm up needed. I will say they are a bit noisy though. For rotors, I have been happy with Centric high carbon blanks. For fluid, I have stuck with ATE.

For the occasional track day, I simply swap my front brackets for the outlander ones moving the caliper out. I also use larger blank rotors that are dedicated for a set of Carbotech XP10 brake pads. This is a very nice economical setup that works good for me. The only downside is there is a bit of heat generation that affects the boots on the calipers. Every other track day, I swap out for some rebuilt ones. They are pretty easy to rebuild. I would love if there were titanium backing plates available.

hope this helps.
 
Outlander calipers are the same as any 2 pot Mitsu caliper. Only brackets and rotors are different.
This. Don't feel like reading this whole thread to check all the facts, but there's one. The hydraulic portion of the Outlander calipers are identical to the 2-pot DSM calipers, so anyone thinking that "bigger" brakes or brakes that stop better or any other criteria you care to name must automatically have a bigger hydraulic volume should keep this in mind. And master cylinders are related to hydraulics not rotor size, pad compound, braking performance, etc, etc.
 
This. Don't feel like reading this whole thread to check all the facts, but there's one. The hydraulic portion of the Outlander calipers are identical to the 2-pot DSM calipers, so anyone thinking that "bigger" brakes or brakes that stop better or any other criteria you care to name must automatically have a bigger hydraulic volume should keep this in mind. And master cylinders are related to hydraulics not rotor size, pad compound, braking performance, etc, etc.

It's not to brake better, fact bigger rotors can take more heat meaning more abuse. Brake take hydraulic pressure and turn it to friction. A bigger surface area will not brake better, just be more efficient and heat won't build up as fast. To get better braking you need more force, braking surface area, and most important is traction. The idea of what I am going by is things working properly together. Upgrading the front brakes to bigger rotors will cause them to be more efficient than the back causing a front brake bias.

Yes master cylinder are related to hydraulics and not rotor size ect, ect. Never was mentioned, but putting the bigger twin piston Outlander calipers into the stock system that had smaller single piston calipers would need my fluid. Meaning the master cylinder would need to move more fluid. A lot a information not going to mention about piston size volume, trates of brake fluid so on and so on. Just like upgrading anything that was in working order, upgrade one thing will cause other things not to work efficient. "chain is only as strong as the weakest link".[DOUBLEPOST=1417152381][/DOUBLEPOST]
Actually, the 3G brake master cylinder bore is 1 1/16", not 1 5/8". The stock ABS DSM AWD master should be 1", and the FWD w/ABS is 15/16". A larger brake (not to be confused with break) caliper typically would require a master with a larger bore unless you want that mushy sh** feel when braking.

I like having the clutch and brake masters separated, especially on a performance oriented car. Separate reservoirs give the clutch and brake systems redundancy, so that issues with the brake system do not affect the clutch system, and vice versa. Some reservoirs which incorporate the clutch and brake reservoirs into a single component are divided to somewhat prevent this, however, I'm not sure if the Lancer master cylinder you are referring to is one of them. This is something to take into consideration as well when building a track car.

A mostly stock brake system would be fine on an autocross car, IMO. Just do the few simple things I said by adding a sticky set of pads, vented rotors, and a good DOT 4 fluid. Most importantly, confirm the system is in good health and working properly. Autocross usually consists of repeated short sprints followed by quick, heavy braking...Then rinse and repeat. If the system is unable to dissipate heat fast enough between braking events, you may need to upgrade a bit. But I think in most cases, your car will never see the high speed and prolonged braking periods where a true track car suffers from brake fade and such. Of course, each autocross event is different, but I think a properly functioning brake system with moderate upgrades would meet your goals.

I'm not saying cheap out on your brakes, or that they aren't important. But, for your goals, your money may be better spent in the suspension department or something. Start small, attend an autocross event and see how the car performs. If the brakes leave much to be desired, then do more upgrades. If they get the job done, then smile and pat yourself on the back for saving money that can be spent on mods that go toward meeting your other goals for the car.

You are able to get 3g master cylinders with a 1 5/8" bore at least I know Wagner makes them and what they claim. Anyway to tell is to measure the bore yourself though, could be a lie.

I know the plan is to mainly autocross but when I am out on the weekends with the car is where I know I have overheating problems with my brakes. Going down a curvy 2 lane mountain road and half way down your brakes no longer work isn't my idea of fun, less fun when your girlfriend is with you, and no wasn't doing the speed limit. Hard to do 45 mph on most those roads. Suspension is pretty much said and done. I have been testing and figuring out what is best for me with my daily and everything will be switched over. Already have a set of wheels even with the good tires that fit my budget and comfort. (Tires to me or not part of a build budget to me more of a maintenance thing).

Main topic is getting the brake to work at the highest efficiency as possible and meaning good pedal feel and best braking bias.
 
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You will be fine with any 2G AWD setup - the later setup is lighter, so use that combination. Weight is your enemy in Solo, Outlander brakes don't get you anything useful over 2G AWD except weight. You only need as much brake as you have grip - anything else is a waste of time, money, and invariably weight.

In the case of autocross, 2G AWD brakes work fine until you transition from the usual 245 race tyres to 275 or 285s, then they don't hold up. That's on a 3,000lb AWD car running the stock T25.

The other option you can consider is Evo calipers/rotors all round; GiroDisc make some incredibly light race rotors, 8lbs rear and 11-12 front. You do gave to run the relatively heavy Brembo calipers though. Or, use a 3kVR4 front setup, with SCE's lightweight rotors - rotors are a pound or two heavier than GiroDisc's Evo rotor, but the calipers are quite a bit lighter than the Evo Brembo. If you use the later 2G AWD prop valve you can fine tune the balance by changing pad compounds.

A 3G m/cyl will give a really solid pedal - some will like that, some will not. The pedal is noticeably harder running the 3kVR4 calipers than with the Evo Brembos. You can get away with the stock 2G AWD m/cyl if you go with the 3kVR4 setup, the pedal is not solid, but it's not mushy either.
 
It's not to brake better, fact bigger rotors can take more heat meaning more abuse. Brake take hydraulic pressure and turn it to friction. A bigger surface area will not brake better, just be more efficient and heat won't build up as fast. To get better braking you need more force, braking surface area, and most important is traction. The idea of what I am going by is things working properly together. Upgrading the front brakes to bigger rotors will cause them to be more efficient than the back causing a front brake bias.

Yes master cylinder are related to hydraulics and not rotor size ect, ect. Never was mentioned, but putting the bigger twin piston Outlander calipers into the stock system that had smaller single piston calipers would need my fluid. Meaning the master cylinder would need to move more fluid. A lot a information not going to mention about piston size volume, trates of brake fluid so on and so on. Just like upgrading anything that was in working order, upgrade one thing will cause other things not to work efficient. "chain is only as strong as the weakest link".[DOUBLEPOST=1417152381][/DOUBLEPOST]

You are able to get 3g master cylinders with a 1 5/8" bore at least I know Wagner makes them and what they claim. Anyway to tell is to measure the bore yourself though, could be a lie.

I know the plan is to mainly autocross but when I am out on the weekends with the car is where I know I have overheating problems with my brakes. Going down a curvy 2 lane mountain road and half way down your brakes no longer work isn't my idea of fun, less fun when your girlfriend is with you, and no wasn't doing the speed limit. Hard to do 45 mph on most those roads. Suspension is pretty much said and done. I have been testing and figuring out what is best for me with my daily and everything will be switched over. Already have a set of wheels even with the good tires that fit my budget and comfort. (Tires to me or not part of a build budget to me more of a maintenance thing).

Main topic is getting the brake to work at the highest efficiency as possible and meaning good pedal feel and best braking bias.

Good catch on the 3G bore size. I went and checked, and it does look like the brake master is available in both sizes (1 5/8" and 1 1/16"). I believe what Paul was trying to say was that an "upgrade" to the hydraulic system doesn't necessarily correlate to better braking; especially when swapping in a 3G master cylinder. I definitely understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't think of it in terms of the amount of fluid being moved. The reason you have a better pedal feel with a larger master cylinder, is because a larger master cylinder increases the mechanical advantage (when everything else in the system remains the same). Simply, your leg has to do less work to exert the same amount of force on the brake system. The downfall being, your leg has to move the brake/clutch pedal farther to get the same amount of travel from whatever cylinder is being acted upon (clutch slave, brake caliper, whatever). The amount of fluid being moved is just a by-product of the system in use; that is, it's just the medium used to transfer force from one hydraulic cylinder to another. The force acting upon the fluid and the size of each cylinder is really what matters. This is why it's important to match the proper brake master with the calipers you are using. A master that is too large gives you that mushy shit pedal feel, whereas a master that's too small feels like it will never stop the car.

You want the best pedal feel? Then pair whatever calipers you decided to go with with the proper brake master cylinder...Not too large, and not too small.

You want the best brake bias? You have 2 options: Select the stock prop valve closest to your desired bias, or install an aftermarket adjustable prop valve and tune it to the desired bias.

You want the highest efficiency? That's relative, as truly efficient brake systems can cost in upwards of thousands of dollars. The stock brake system should be efficient enough to meet your goals if upgraded with the few components that have already been suggested to you in this thread. If you are experiencing brake fade the the point where your brakes no longer work while driving on curvy mountain roads, I suspect you have other issues that need attention before upgrading anything. You are driving a ~3,000 pound car, not a tractor trailer. Even on the most hilly roads, there's no reason a healthy stock brake system in a relatively small passenger car should exhibit the symptoms you're describing.
 
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The mountain roads I drive on a lot are steep and plus I like to have fun. I cut back with my car when I go down the mountain because I notice brakes start to fade. My car had new premium pads, rotors, front calipers, and brake hoses. But really what I am planning on doing with the car is really off topic. The topic was the ideas I had stated in the first post.

Like you said for best pedal feel pair the right master cylinder with calipers. Why I was saying should I go with the Lancer master cylinder?
 
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