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Promised Clean 1g, Left With a Project

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tec_41

10+ Year Contributor
342
7
Nov 23, 2008
West Bend, Wisconsin
First off, if this should be moved to the tech section I apologize. This is a long story, so if you don't want to read it all, I'll include a summary at the end. The point of this thread will be for me to pick the heck out of your brains :)

My background:
My very first "fun" car was a 95 Talon ESi. I learned that thing inside and out, and ended up building a turbo kit for it. Once I blew it up I fully built the motor. I learned the majority of my wrenching skills on that car, and don't regret owning it for a second. I've also own an 04 WRX, 03 Mustang, and a few other toys here and there...so I'm not completely helpless when it comes to turning a wrench!

That being said, my knowledge is limited to the 4g63 platform. I hesitantly left Indiana yesterday with a 92 Talon TSi AWD (I live in Wisconsin), and boy is this thing in need of some TLC. The kid who sold it advertised it as CLEAN, with a great looking mod list and low miles. And the asking price was $3800 - Which seemed fair for a clean 22 year old car. He sent me a bunch of low-res pics, nothing that showed how dinged up the body really was. Bent lips on 2 wheels, scratches and dings all over, windows don't work for crap, interior is okay except for panels missing screws and for some reason the seat belts were in the back seat. Head unit isn't even mounted in the dash, Hurst shifter wasn't attached right (idk how you screw that up), and much more. He answered all of my questions with lies.

The second I got out of my truck to look at this thing my jaw dropped. "Clean" is the last word I'd use to describe it. I was pissed, and I let the guy know he wasted my entire Sunday. I left with the car, talk about buyer's remorse. But now I'm starting to have a little hope - It would be such a fun Winter car, even with its beat up body. I paid what I thought it was worth, which was much less than his asking price, and limped the thing 500 miles home. It runs like crap. I haven't had a chance to look at it much yet, but will after work today. Right off the bat I noticed an open vacuum line hanging off the throttle body, which might attribute to why it idles high and like crap. But also, the car supposedly has 550cc injectors and a 16g turbo, which it definitely can't be tuned for. There is soot all over the back bumper and it bogs down like crazy throughout the whole RPM band - particularly at 6k.

He said the previous owner said it had DSMLink v2, but I only see an Eprom ECU that isn't socketed (attached picture). It has a 16g of some sort, I can't quite see the numbers in the picture I took this morning so I'll have to look when I'm home from work. It idles very high, at like 1500rpm, and is rough. It fluctuates, and somtimes dies. I think this might be due to the Fidanza flywheel and vacuum leaks.

So where the eff would you guys start? I'd like to get this thing back to a simple running state. Put in stock injectors? Take out the manual boost controller? It peaks around 15psi right now. Also, I'm sure after 500 miles of highway driving under rich conditions the spark plugs are fouled. So I'm going to pick up a set of NGK BPR6ES on my way home tonight and put those in. Also going to trace down all the vacuum leaks I can, and do a boot leak test if I can find my tester. CEL is on for supposedly a coolant temp sensor, maybe I'll knock that out right away.

TLDR? Cliff notes:
Picked up a neglected 1g. Here's the claimed mod-list:

-Built TRE stage 2.5 trans with lsd, double synchro first and second, evo 1st and 5th
-4 spider center diff
-New head as of last November
-ARP head studs, Cometic head gasket
-16g turbo
-Balance shaft delete kit
-Slowboy racing front mount
-Lsd read end
-550cc blue maxx injectors
-Dsm link v2.5 *turns out it's just an EPROM Ecu, no Link*
-Fidanza aluminum flywheel
-Centerforce dual friction clutch

Car runs like poo, want to get it back to a simple running state. Right now boost is turned up to 15psi via MBC, and the bigger injectors/turbo are not tuned for. Here is an album with a few quick engine bay shots and a pic of the ECU- http://s52.photobucket.com/user/tec_41/library/1g TSi AWD

Where the heck would the 4g63 experts start?[DOUBLEPOST=1413832516][/DOUBLEPOST]The Eprom ecu I appear to have (MD145903) is from a 1990 supposedly. And since mine is a 92, I read I'd have to swap pins 6 and 14. Anyone know the reason for this?
 
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First thing I would do is change back to stock injectors. Since it doesn't have ecmlink like the PO said than its not tuned to run with larger injectors. Then boost leak test and fix any leaks and find where that vacuum line goes. It should run fine with the 16g as long as the boost isn't turned up too high.
 
Or you can throw in a 2gMAF in place of the 1g MAF and it will run like stock
 
Or you can throw in a 2gMAF in place of the 1g MAF and it will run like stock

Still need a way to tune for the bigger injectors and extra flow air. Cant just install injectors and maf and expect it to work like it stock. I would replace plugs, wires, oil and filter, tranny t case and rear diff fluid, check air filter, blt, and check the cel code.
 
Awesome, thanks for the advice so far! I'll see what I can knock out tonight and will report back. I'll try to source some stock injectors, too.

Another thing I noticed was high idle - Like, 1k-1500 rpm when it isn't wanting to die. I read one thing to check is the coolant lines going to the throttle body - So could my coolant temp sensor being bad be connected to this?
 
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If those mods are true and were done right, I wouldn't consider it too terrible of a deal. You definitely have your work cut out for you though.

There's a few places to start, but I'd shoot for getting it running perfectly in stock form. In no particular order, I'd do the following:

  • Reroute the vacuum lines to how they should be. Replace the old brittle lines with new ones. Here's a photo to show how they should be on a 1g.
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  • Get rid of the aftermarket boost controller. If that's not an option, at least put it back down to 10psi (more or less how it came from the factory). The 16g will run fine at stock pressure.
  • Like mentioned above, get some stock 450cc injectors in there. They'll be blue and made by Denso.
  • That 90 ECU will be a problem if the pins weren't switched. Pins 6 and 14 are for the idle position switch and air flow sensor, so they're important for idle. If you're handy with a soldering iron, just swap the pins. Just remember to disconnect the battery when doing electrical work.
  • Do a boost leak test (basically a leak-down test for the intake system). This will reveal vacuum leaks in the intake tract, which if they exist, will cause the car to run poorly. This is because the mass airflow sensor measures the air that enters and then injects the correct amount of fuel. If air escapes, the ECU won't know because the air's already been measured.
A few notes:

-That aluminium flywheel can cause the car to die between shifts. It spins so freely, the car's air flow sensors and idle position switch can't react fast enough (they're designed to work with the heavier OE flywheel). I had one on my '90 Laser and didn't have that problem, but I've read about it on other people's cars.

-Target idle for a DSM should be 750 rpms +/-50. Adjust this by turning the base idle set screw (BISS) on the throttle body (the screw is plastic and is often a vacuum leak, so be gentle). Use a ground wire to steady the idle for this procedure, I'll let you research that process :)

-Verify the base mechanical timing is correct (you'll use a ground wire on this too). This is done with a timing light and looking down at the crank pulley underneath the timing belt. The pulley will have a little notch on it that will line up with the plastic timing cover. Use some white-out on the notch so you can see it.

I could go on with more tips, but I think this is enough to keep you busy for a little while. Others will add on their advice too. Good luck!
 

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Another thing I noticed was high idle - Like, 1k-1500 rpm when it isn't wanting to die. I read one thing to check is the coolant lines going to the throttle body - So could my coolant temp sensor being bad be connected to this?

Its not going to idle or run correctly at all with those injectors so don't worry about that until you get some stock injectors
 
+1 for Fidanza aluminum flywheels being junk, my 1g stalls between every shift if you let the rpm's drop more then 1k between gears. Also, if you dont let it go to almost idle speed in gear before stopping, it dies. if im not going auto, ill be on an Exedy or ACT soon. i got laughed at after the car put down 430hp on my hx35 the dyno...then it stalled coming down in rpms. :(
There should be some marking stamped or cut into the trans to verify the build. My Shep 3 has one.
Every fluid, ngk plugs, wires, full timing kit with an oem tensioner would be my first action. check for boost leaks and get the correct throttle body elbow and bring that IC piping to where it should be.
Fix that battery nightmare! Side post GM battery in a 1g? Is that duct tape i spy on the connections? PO wasn't the right owner for this poor car for sure. This is gonna lead to electrical starting charging and fuse issues for sure.
my next was ECU. Owning a 90, life sucks. i bought a rebuilt one that was socketed from a guy on ebay. it works great in the 2 90 cars ive had in the past 2 years. then DSM link. Together this cost me $800. At the time ecm link was out of 90 eproms so i had no choice.
then go have fun and start modding and going fast!
 
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I definitely appreciate all of the input and advice so far. After getting a chance to get under the car last night, I'm not going to lie...I'm a little scared. There's a lot of oil, I can't even pinpoint the leaks. It was pooled on top of the trans, and there was wayyyy too much oil around the timing belt area for me to be comfortable with.

I snapped some more pictures - http://s52.photobucket.com/user/tec_41/library/1g TSi AWD/More Shots

Also, it's a wiring nightmare. At the ECU connectors there are several spliced/hacked wires, some don't even lead to anything. Under the hood is just as bad. There are 2 sets of coolant temp/gauge sensors, several non-factory wires spliced into the harness, wires going to what I think is the oil pressure sending unit, and some funky stuff at the injector harness.

And here's the best part- After replacing the plugs (which actually were pretty new, but obviously indicated a rich condition) and capping some vacuum leaks and cleaning up the bay a little bit, I go to start it up. Definitely ran a little better, but after about 10 seconds of idling I smelled electrical smoke - Something by the ECU wiring clusterf*ck was trying to burn the car to the ground.

I shut it off, disconnected the battery and went inside to have a beer. That was how yesterday went. At this point I'm considering throwing it on Craigslist and just taking a loss. I'd love to make something of it but I don't think I have the motivation. The only thing I would think worth doing is ripping out this molested harness and replacing it, but I'm seeing 1g harness are not cheap. I would absolutely love this car, but I just don't know if I can get it to a reliable state. Wiring aside, I've got pretty severe oil leaks to troubleshoot.
 
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I had the same thoughts you had there in your last paragraph, until your second set of photos. The car does look like it would be a nice 1g, with a competent person such as yourself now owning it.

1. That red rtv on the oil pan, that shit's terrible. Take the pan off, clean it all out, clean the pick-up screen, and put it back correctly with ultra grey. (don't forget the 2 shorter oil pan bolts go at the crank pulley location).

2. You can have the harness out in about 2 hours. 1 hour to take off the dash, blower fan box, and evap box, 1 hour to remove the entire harness. That's with 2 people. I did this, because my PO had afc hardwired in at the ecu so i have to resolder all those wires, plus i'll be doing a tuck and speed density plus some other things, so removed all the wire loom and will re-loom the entire harness.

3. Trans does look abnormally clean, he might have been telling the truth on a rebuild, see if you can find markings of such work, or you have the PO's name, you can contact TRE and see if it was done there.

4. Don't be in such a rush. I think my PO was asking 2800 for mine, but once I saw it and knew what kind of work it needed, I got it for half that. Now you also have a gem, a 92 6/4, that you can make all your own like I'm doing with mine. If it takes a year or two, so be it.... but it'll be done right and not a hackjob. What I loved about mine was some of the rare parts my 92 came with, Extreme (Glazer, not extreme psi) parts like fmic, o2, tubular exh manifold, downpipe, etc...probably all made by the legendary OddRob. These are things I'm re-using due to their quality of manufacture, plus that they're rare. Oh yea, and the thermal 3" cat-back, something I would have bought anyway that would cost a grand by itself, but it was already on the car.

Sure I tore the ENTIRE car apart, and its still mostly apart, but I see a light at the end of the tunnel, and my build thread is impressive to many. It's no tubbed out rwd monster that'll run 8s, but it's gonna be a show-stopping street type daily driver. Yours will be too.
 
See, you did it with the mustang! Just make sure the mustang's finished so you have something reliable to run to the parts store and work and stuff, while the dsm is undergoing its' transformation.
 
Don't you just love when people try to hide the fact they screwed up their car?

On a side note, the body does looks pretty clean for a midwestern-found car. It looks like it just needs a good cleaning. I bet it'll shine up nicely. To me, that's worth it in itself... the hacked up mess can be fixed. As stated above, it takes time, but it can be fixed. rusted out shells, on the other hand are more of a nightmare.

My original blue car was a nightmare; very similar to what you are finding. I stripped it down to a shell and rebuilt it. Tossed the old, cut-up harness in favor for one that was out of my stock dsm. New interior, rebuilt engine with quality parts; not ebay crap. It took over a year to correct the car, but it has been running virtually trouble-free for over three years now; both racing and driving!

Stick with it... just take your time. :)
 
That happened to me over the summer. Drove 4 hours saw it was a project got 2 miles down the road and the motor went. At least you got yours home. I came close to ripping up the title and leaving it on the road. Then I realized I was going to tear it down anyways so I called triple A.
 
Always some fun DSM stories! I had a buddy who bought a 95 TSi AWD from Minnesota, about 5 hours away. It died half an hour down the road...

I have a guy coming to look at it tonight, he says he used to work at Boostin' Performance. If I get a decent offer on it I'm going to sell, but if not it'll remain a project.

Some updates - Turns out the smoke was the ECU killing itself, so that's cool-
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What the eff is this thing? It's bolted right to the battery...has 3 fuses...and is broken-
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This black wire is poking out of the coil pack area, and it's hot. Touched it to metal and it sparked, then the idle dropped-
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Here's what was going on by the ECU. I managed to rip out the terribly spliced wires and solder them. But this harness needs to be replaced, regardless. FCD = Fuel cut defender? -
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Despite all of these things I still managed to take it for a spin down the road last night. It drives better without the boost turned up and the giant vacuum leak, but it still sputters around 5-6k rpm. Here's a video of that. I'll attribute any issues to the blown up ECU/crappy wiring for now. You can see it actually builds up to 8psi around 5k. The engine wasn't cold, the temp sensor is disconnected-
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Sorry to blow the thread up with pictures. Are we having fun yet? :)
 
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It's not THAT bad for a DSM. I helped this guy get his DSM running the other day after work. Should have seen that POS. He said he paid $400 for it. I wouldn't have bought it for that and I'll buy just about any DSM.
 
Get these squared away or you'll have more problems :)

From left to right, these fuses are:

Ignition Switch Circuit - 30A (key ignition switch)
Radiator Fan Motor Circuit - 30A
MFI Circuit - 20A (fuel injector control)

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Still need a way to tune for the bigger injectors and extra flow air. Cant just install injectors and maf and expect it to work like it stock. I would replace plugs, wires, oil and filter, tranny t case and rear diff fluid, check air filter, blt, and check the cel code.
Incorrect. the 2gMAF reads differently than the 1gMAF, requiring larger injectors. Evo 560's with the 2g MAF in a 1g is an awesome mod, one of the earliest. pair these with a e316g, afpr, boost gauge, wally 190 or 255 and a wideband and have a happy 20lbs boost all day long. Ran this for almost 2 years, never an issue and identical AFR's +/- .2 on the readings. Car rans just as it did when stock except I had much more headroom for boost.
 
Incorrect. the 2gMAF reads differently than the 1gMAF, requiring larger injectors. Evo 560's with the 2g MAF in a 1g is an awesome mod, one of the earliest. pair these with a e316g, afpr, boost gauge, wally 190 or 255 and a wideband and have a happy 20lbs boost all day long. Ran this for almost 2 years, never an issue and identical AFR's +/- .2 on the readings. Car rans just as it did when stock except I had much more headroom for boost.
I and many others will still disagree. Just because it "worked" for you, doesnt mean it will for everyone else. Its still better to have a tune anytime you change something. Im not going to argue so if you and whoever else wants to run without a tune so be it. Its not my car
 
That is true for just a completely stock car. Even stock our cars are too rich @ WOT and can be tuned better. What I am stating that this will work just as a stock car until they can get a tuning solution. And it isn't just me, there are TONS of people who have done, do and will do this. Much safer than just a maft and bigger injectors. threadjack over...
 
I ran into a similar nightmare with a 2g 2 years ago. Bought the car. Was told coil pack was down on 2-3 and it was a 2.3l got it home tweaked valves on 2 and 3 rebuilt head. Went on and pulled block because it was a fresh rebuild. Lmao it was a 6 bolt block but the mains where in upside down oil pump was junk turbo was junk was missing half the bolts no interior convertible top was cut off bay was spray bombed with no cleaning or prep done wiring was trashed body damage to the left rear quarter trust me I kno ur pain only gave 1200 for the car. But have spent the past 2 years restoring it to its former glory don't lose hope just stick with it at least now u have the opportunity to fix everything in 1 fail swoop instead of finding problem after problem down the road
 
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