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ECUflash Evo 8 Ecu - Running Rich

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1995-tsi-awd

Proven Member
131
14
Jul 17, 2013
Fort Worth, Texas
Oh where to begin ...

Bought my 95 talon about a year ago and have done all the maintenance I can reasonably think of before upgrading. I don't drive it much (probably 200 miles in the last year)
Compression ~180 across the board
Maintenance:
Belts, pulleys, tensioner, oil

Before upgrading its was near stock condition and ran well; 15psi on t25.
Upgrades:
Evo B16g (wg pressure for now)
RC 550 Injectors
Evo 8 ECU (EvoScan and EcuFlash)
AEM wideband (installed rear o2)
Boost gauge
Oil pressure gauge
Injen intake
Walbro 255
AEM Afpr
EGR Delete
Charcoal Canister Removed
Crushed 1g BOV

I got the car running and went to the gas station to fill up the night before tuning. Wake up the next day and car won't start. In short, injector scaling was off and it fouled spark plugs. Got it running again and took it out for a short drive, I heard the pump start to whine (loud) so I drove home and called it quits. Next day it wouldn't start again, so I thought the plugs were fouled again, but no luck. It turned out that when I filled the tank up with gas (full) it grabbed rust from the rusted out suction unit and pulled it to the sending unit side. This went up to the fuel filter and blew the internals of that filter out and clogged up my injectors. Who would have thought, rust in a plastic awd tank.

Maintenance #2:
Cleaned Rail w/b12
Cleaned injectors w/b12 (9v battery etc.)
Ran pump (evoscan) to filter to flush out line
Cleaned filter to rail line w/b12
Installed new fuel filter
Installed (New looking) suction unit

I noticed a rust like coating on the walls of the plastic tank.. not sure if that is normal, but really didn't want to drop it. I did pull most of the visible particles out. I'm ok with changing the sock or filter.

I have gotten the car running again and started to get the base tuning loaded. The car runs rich ~10a/f at idle with injector size at 513 and scaling at .180ms. I can adjust the size up to ~3000 (yes 3000) and it will help bring it up to ~12a/f, but I know that's not the correct way.... I have noticed that the walbro pump will progressively get louder with the size at 513 and it doesn't at ~3000 which is weird.

o2 sensor is reading .9 volts (will drop if I give it gas) - already replaced
STFT -25%
actuated injectors (while idling) and could tell each one was shut off

Things I think are the culprit:
Injector scaling is off
Injectors are leaking and I need them professionally cleaned
Boost Leak? I haven't done a leak test

What else can you guys think of? I could use the help.

Thanks
 
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What maf sensor are you running? Do you have the option to switch what maf you are using with your tuning software?
 
So has it ever ran good with the scaling set like that? I noticed in that thread you were having the issue before you installed the afpr and you seem to still be having it. If you injector input's are correct and your fuel tables are correct than about the only possibility is the maf scaling if it is so off like that. You might try and input the numbers from the left chart on the link that i showed you and see how it runs.
 
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on the AFPR? I didn't see you mention cleaning the AFPR. Kind of sounds to me like either the AFPR and/or the fuel return line is plugged up. If the fuel is not being allowed to return to the tank correctly then you would have a very high fuel pressure at the rail and that would explain the extremely rich AFR and the noisy pump (pump working very hard vs the high fuel pressure).
 
The car only ran well with stock ECU and Injectors. I bought/installed the afpr after I cleaned everything up and put it back together. The gauge reads ~38psi at idle hooked up to intake manifold.

The link you provided show values without the MAF adder (+64).

To get the values correct from the link you provided I first changed the Adder from 140 to 64 by:
(this is not mentioned in the other post I provided...interesting)
You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Then I take the values in the link you provided and must add +64 to make it equivalent
Here is what I get (not too far off from other values): Tried it and didn't work :(
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I did some more trial and error and was able to set the latency values all to 0 and the size to 3000!
The afr went from ~10 to ~12 and the STFT started at 25% and ended in -25%.
I actuated each injector and afr pegged at ~18 for each.
*side note my throttle position is at 14% without my foot on the pedal. Is that right?

With just a straight pipe and running this rich my shirt reeks of fuel :)

Thinking about trying the last post in this thread http://www.dsm-addiction.com/forum/resources/tech-article-write-ups/1309-how-to-tune-your-evo-ecu
to scale my MAF settings.

Here is my current ROM - Have a look!
 

Attachments

  • 96530006v21.hex
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I am also willing to log some data and post that up here if that helps :/

What scalings should I use?
What should I log?
afr, o2-v, STFT, MAF Hz, RPM, Timing, LTFT's, coolant temp, battery-v

Thanks again!
 
Alright, I got your message so I'll see what I can do for you :) Looking this all over it looks like you're obviously running rich like crazy (at least at idle anyway). I see that you've installed a fpr and your fuel pressure is correct, so you should already be set on that. So if you're running rich it's either fuel or air; lets get started :)

First and foremost, I'd suggest you switch your Rom to Tephramods V7, preferably 96530706. I downloaded your current rom, and it's pretty lacking; I mean it's piggy-backing off of the Evo7 xml after all (granted I didn't add the extra code to the xml from the link). There's no point in rolling an old stock Rom, when Tephramods is free (feel free to donate though), heavily tested, includes amazing features, and also includes preriphery bits to get rid of all the CELs that thing should be throwing. Not to mention it'll allow you to disable your rear O2 heater and the sensor itself in the port that your wide-band is now occupying. Also be sure to download Merlin's Evo 8 Flash Tuning Guide.

After that, boost leaks at idle would make you run lean, so that's likely not your (main) issue. There's only two ways you idle rich: too much fuel, or not enough air; i.e. improper injector scaling/latency or improper MAF readings/scaling. I noticed that extreme changes to your injectors scaling had little effect, so something is wrong there, I'm hoping changing the Rom will help correct this. I used Knochgoon24's settings when I was running the Evo8 ECU with success on the stock 2g MAF, and eventually upgraded to an Evo8 MAF. I'd suggest swapping roms and trying his scalings for the MAF. Your scalings for the injectors seem correct; unfortunately since the stock Evo injectors are 560cc there's not much info for smaller injectors. I see that you increased the latencies a bit so that should be sufficient to get it up and going, I'd let those be for now.

The biggest problem I see is that your O2 is not cycling (it can't because the stft/ltft are maxed) so there's no way you can set anything faithfully as it all counts on that. I'm not sure if you've tried, but what are your AFRs at WOT? Are they also crazy rich? I follow Ceddy's Injector Scaling Method personally since most injectors already have well known values (page 68 in Merlin's Guide). With known values you do WOT tuning first so things better line up in the end. I'd rather have my injectors do what I put in the Fuel Maps rather than know they'll be a little more lean or a little more rich all the time.

So lets get this down to a lock-step:
1) Switch Roms
2) Swap in your injector scaling/latency and MAF settings.
3) At idle log:
  • Fuel Trim Low (LTFT)
  • Fuel Trim Mid (LTFT)
  • Oxygen FeedBack Trim (STFT)
  • Oxygen Sensor
  • MAF Hz
  • Load
  • Throttle Position
  • RPM
  • Battery Level
  • AFR
  • AFR Target

4) See if it improves and post up

If nothing changes Ill probably suggest putting your stock injectors back in to see if your new ones are still messed up. As a side note, be careful what peripheries you mess with in the Rom as well. I had all kinds of fuel problem craziness happen when I changed too many at once, so leave them alone beyond disabling the rear O2 at the beginning. Be sure to check your CELs and let me know what those are as well.

Good luck my friend; with testing and patience you'll get it figured out.
 
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Thanks Melbowski for responding. I know I'm close, just need some guidance.
Something to consider - My AFR gauge and values when logging were off (something to sort next time)
Close to the same at ~10afr but the actual gauge seemed about ~.5afr's higher than logger around ~12afr
I used http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/la...ums/491918-how-log-your-aem-eugo-evoscan.html

LOG's 19.17.23 19.18.18
Switched Roms:
Changed MAF scalings to Knochgoon24's
Changed Injector size to 552 (Ceddy recommends real value for DSM's)
Changed Injector latency (+.180 all per Ceddy)
Disabled Immobilizer (FAA bits)

I got a CEL for P0090 Fuel Pressure Solenoid (that is unhooked and EVAP removed)

LOG 19.20.55
Disabled P0443, P0446, P0403, P0243, P0090, P2263 (FCA bits)

LOG 19.30.01
Changed Injector latency back to original settings, -.180 all
Injector size still 552

LOG 19.33.09
Changed Injector size to 504
Injectory latency original settings

LOG 19.35.59
Changed Injector latency, -.250 all
Injector size still 504

LOG 19.35.59
Changed Injector size to 552
Injector latency still -.250 under original

LOG 19.40.20 (pulled car into garage near end)
Changed injector latency, -.250 all (-.500 total)
Injector size still 552

It did start to lean out, but not as much as I think it should.

I'm thinking the injectors need a professional cleaning... (looking for stock injectors)
 

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  • EvoScanDataLog_2014.09.30_19.40.20.csv
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Alright, finally got a chance to look through some of your logs here. Honestly, I'm no hardcore tuner, but I'll do what I can. First and foremost Ceddy's reference to using actual flow numbers is only for the H8 Stock ECU, the Evo ECU will always use a smaller number (long story, but that's how it works). Also AEM wide-bands are notorious for being a pain to log directly, and only seem to log properly via the serial port (mine still doesn't log right and I've tried numerous formulas). Not much you can do about that.

As for your trims themselves, they tend to max out pulling fuel very quickly. you're hitting -25% (pulling fuel) in short order, and that's way beyond what changing your latency is going to fix. Raising your scaling is the better option beyond -5% variance, however seeing as you've tried that in the past it's looking more like a mechanical problem. The best I can suggest is to replace your injectors, as it's the last thing to rule out in your fuel system.

You can easily pick up a set of stock 450cc or even Evo 560cc injectors on the cheap. It seems like whenever that stuff got sucked into your fuel system it messed up your current set. Honestly since the stock settings are for a set of 560cc Evo injectors I'd look for those as that should put you extremely close to proper fueling without doing anything beyond changing the MAF settings, and if the problem doesn't improve you can sell them easily.

I wish I could be more helpful, but that's all I've got :( Let us know what happens with the injector swap and good luck man.
 
I forgot to come back and comment.. It was the injectors. Dropped some 560cc evo injectors in and everything seems to be working great. Just got done welding an end tank on a supra smic and putting in my 2bg talon fog lights.

Also dropped in a holset actuator, planning on ~20psi and worried the 560's might not be enough now ..LOL
 
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