2G 97 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - P1104 - Rough Idle

Krileon · Aug 25, 2014

I've a 97 Eagle Talon TSi AWD that's throwing P1104 (his reader says "Manufacturer Control Fuel Air Metering") and is idling very rough. There appears to be some sort of hose that is not connected. It seams to have broken off and was apparently puttied on. Below are some pictures of the hose, but I'm not sure if it's relevant to the issue.

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My mechanic just fixed the car up again. It has all new belts, new water pump, and new exhaust. He had to put it back into time twice now. It broke down in town and wouldn't start at all (it tried though) and once he put it back in time it started right up, but now it's idling rough and throwing that error code. Once you get up to speed it seams to run perfectly fine. The car also sat for a good 3 years up to a month ago when we started fixing it up.

My mechanic threw out his shoulder working on it so he can't work on it any further for awhile so trying to get this figured out and make sure it's safe for my son to drive. My mechanic says it's ok to drive, but I'm not comfortable with the rough idle as it already broke down in town before on my son and don't want to have to go through that again.

Krileon · Sep 10, 2014

Haven't checked the timing yet as I don't have the tools yet, but looks like my Boost is all over the place when I check it with Torque, which shows a range of +4 to -4 and it keeps going to -20 then dropping to -10 over and over, but I don't know what that really means. The stock boost gauge on the dash also doesn't seam to climb much even if you nearly floor it. P1104 is "Turbocharger Wastegate Solenoid". I'm guessing the computer being unable to control the boost could be causing this? I also can't seam to find a replacement BCS on amazon, ebay, or the classifieds for a 2g; any suggestions?

Update: Disconnected the BCS and cleaned it then reconnected it. Cleared the code and now it's not throwing P1104 anymore. The boost is sitting at 10-11PSI and holding steady. Idle issues are still there though. I also monitored the Vacuum gauge in Torque and it's holding at -20 in P/N, drops to -15 when going to R/D, but climbs back up. I noticed when the RPMs were dropping it'd start sputtering and the lights would dim/flicker as well as lots of shaking. I'm out of ideas guys. I'll be checking the timing this Friday, but I don't know what else to do after that.

911gdsmboostin · Sep 10, 2014

here's a though.. I don't if you might have checked this yet or not. try checking the voltage coming from alt and going to batt and coming out of injectors... if your low on power it can couse a lot of unexplainable problems I just went through this on a 91 fwd auto I just bough the other day would run for awhile rough idle and die found it was a bad alt fuse. but bad grounds chassis to batt or engine to batt grounds can Couse similar problems or shorts in any systems... just some food for though.. good luck keep us up to date .

Krileon · Sep 13, 2014

Ok, I'm trying to check the timing and I'm to the part where I need to turn it manually. I have it in Neutral, #1 spark plug pulled, rod down it so I can watch for TDC, but I can't get the pulleys to move. I tried moving them by hand, but they won't budge, I don't know where I'm suppose to put my socket wrench to turn it that way so I'm afraid to just turn nuts willy-willy. The below tutorial doesn't show me what I'm supposed to be turning (a shame really).

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.306607/

Can someone provide a picture of what I'm supposed to be turning? Is it the nut on the left pulley, the right pulley, or somewhere else?

911gdsmboostin · Sep 13, 2014

Neither look at the crank pulley thei should be a hold for a ratchet believe it's half in ratchet just out it in an turn and you good

Krileon · Sep 13, 2014

911gdsmboostin said:
Neither look at the crank pulley thei should be a hold for a ratchet believe it's half in ratchet just out it in an turn and you good

Huh? I see two spots for a ratchet. 1 on each pulley. Below is the picture from the tutorial I linked above.

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Sjd6795 · Sep 13, 2014

Seems like idle fluctuating is a thing for DSMs my brother had one and his would jump all over the place from 500-1200. Someone hit him and totaled it before figuring out what the problem was. Mine has done it off and on if it isn't the timing check everywhere for a boost leak. Make sure everything is connected where it's suppose to be. It could also be your IAC or ISC also if your honeycombs are damage in your Maf that can also cause the idle to fluctuate.[DOUBLEPOST=1410619608][/DOUBLEPOST]What he is talking about will be behind the wheel the main crank pulley. You need to jack the car up and remove the wheel and the plastic shields and you will be able to see it.[DOUBLEPOST=1410619717][/DOUBLEPOST]Also make sure you turn the crank the correct way spinning it backwards to much can cause some problems.

Krileon · Sep 13, 2014

Sjd6795 said:
Seems like idle fluctuating is a thing for DSMs my brother had one and his would jump all over the place from 500-1200. Someone hit him and totaled it before figuring out what the problem was. Mine has done it off and on if it isn't the timing check everywhere for a boost leak. Make sure everything is connected where it's suppose to be. It could also be your IAC or ISC also if your honeycombs are damage in your Maf that can also cause the idle to fluctuate.

I've already replaced the IAC, re-adjusted the TPS, cleaned he TB and replaced its gaskets, checked for vacuum leaks, boost is holding steady at 11 PSI with no signs of leak. I didn't take the MAF off and check the inside of it, but the sensor is fine.

Sjd6795 said:
What he is talking about will be behind the wheel the main crank pulley. You need to jack the car up and remove the wheel and the plastic shields and you will be able to see it.

Crap, didn't know I had to take the wheel off. All I have is a crappy jack for replacing the tire. Do I need to just jack that 1 wheel up so I can remove it or does the entire car need to be lifted? Was hoping to just do a quick timing test.

Sjd6795 · Sep 13, 2014

You could possibly turn the wheel enough to get to get to it but just that one side needs to be jacked up. It will be kind of annoying getting that plastic shield unbolted without removing the wheel but whatever is easier. I've never tried to turn it with the wheel on so it may or may not work.

Krileon · Sep 13, 2014

Ok, got the wheel off and turned the crank pulley. I can't get it to do a full revolution. Even with all the plugs pulled it's too hard to turn any further. I've got it to TDC, but it's like 5 teeth off and believe I need to do a couple revolutions before I can truly check. Any ideas other than just put more muscle into it (I'm a computer guy, come on! LOL

).

Update: Something isn't right. The right camshaft sprocket (Intake) moves if I pull/push on the belt and the left one (Exhaust) seams like it doesn't want to move at all. I can't get it to do a full revolution and at its current position it's 5 teeth off. Is the right camshaft sprocket (Intake) too loose? Why won't it do a full revolution? I checked TDC of all the plugins and #1 and #4 are TDC, but #2 and #3 are not. Is it out of time?

Update: Ok, doesn't look like anything is really wrong. I just need to get it to do a full revolution as it's supposed to take like 2 revolutions before they line up, but I can't get it to do a revolution; it's too hard to turn.

Update: Put everything back together.. ANNNDD it's a heck of a lot WORSE. I'm not even ok with starting it it sounds so bad. I've called my mechanic and he's gonna come over Monday and take a look as I'm out of ideas and this is way out of my level of expertise.

miguelmcv · Sep 13, 2014

I will opt for boost leak.
Let us know what you found.

pauleyman · Sep 13, 2014

You probably just mixed up the firing order when you reassembled. I would find a local dsmer. Sorry but from your previous post your mechanic doesn't seem to know whats going on.

Krileon · Sep 13, 2014

pauleyman said:
You probably just mixed up the firing order when you reassembled.

Spark plugs are in the right order. I couldn't even hand turn it a full revolution when I was trying to check the timing. I probably screwed something up and put it out of time even further (this was above my experience level, shouldn't have attempted

).

pauleyman said:
I would find a local dsmer. Sorry but from your previous post your mechanic doesn't seem to know whats going on.

I've tried finding a mechanic that works on DSMs, but I can't find one. Dealerships are also out of question as I can't afford it. If my mechanic puts it back in time and there's still issues then I guess it's time to scrap it or sell it to someone who can properly fix it.

MURDER GST · Sep 13, 2014

check your boost control solenoid, iac valce, maf, and coil packs.

pauleyman · Sep 13, 2014

Did you turn it clockwise or counterclockwise? Funny thing is what you were trying to do is very easy.

911gdsmboostin · Sep 14, 2014

99% of internal combustions engines turn clockwise and u don't need to absoutly jack it and remove drivers wheel, I did it on my 91 1 g on the ground but it was also modified motor look under dr side and you will see crank pulley stock pulley has 1/2 in drive socket hole to put 1/2in dr rachet ( no socket needed) and put in and turn right ( clock wise) to move crank pulley and that should do it cam pulleys might wanna use a wrench with no belt on should move easy taking plughs out will make it easier... good luck[DOUBLEPOST=1410671719][/DOUBLEPOST]sorry didn't read correctly, you only need tdc of cylinder #1 ( closest to left fender and camshafts) at tdc its hard to say when theirs a point when the rod moves from before tdc to after u need to find out when only way to tell is with a dial and an open engine other ways to tell is getting as close as possible and using hanes to do your best. if u have a belt on and cant turn yes something is wrong probly witting a valve or 2 it is an interference motor meaning it will hit valves when out of time best bet it remove belt and set cams and crank by hand carefully and use the service manual and make sure your doing it right or pay someone to do it and hope they know how. best bet is finding someone who has done it and knows their stuff... I know how hard it can be had to do the same on a dodge stratis and it was a bi*** and gotta be right before u start because it can scrap motor just read recherché and ask question's .. that's what where here for. good luck man

Krileon · Sep 14, 2014

MURDER GST said:
check your boost control solenoid, iac valce, maf, and coil packs.

Thats all already been checked. IAC is replaced. MAF is fine. BCS is fine. Suggest reading the topic as I've already replied with that information

.

pauleyman said:
Did you turn it clockwise or counterclockwise? Funny thing is what you were trying to do is very easy.

I turned it clockwise. It got to TDC then wouldn't go any further. I noticed when I was doing this the belt became loose and I think I made it skip time even more. I think I need a new tensioner as it seams to have a hard time keeping belts. I'll be talking with my mechanic tomorrow to see what he thinks.

911gdsmboostin said:
99% of internal combustions engines turn clockwise and u don't need to absoutly jack it and remove drivers wheel, I did it on my 91 1 g on the ground but it was also modified motor look under dr side and you will see crank pulley stock pulley has 1/2 in drive socket hole to put 1/2in dr rachet ( no socket needed) and put in and turn right ( clock wise) to move crank pulley and that should do it cam pulleys might wanna use a wrench with no belt on should move easy taking plughs out will make it easier... good luck[DOUBLEPOST=1410671719][/DOUBLEPOST]sorry didn't read correctly, you only need tdc of cylinder #1 ( closest to left fender and camshafts) at tdc its hard to say when theirs a point when the rod moves from before tdc to after u need to find out when only way to tell is with a dial and an open engine other ways to tell is getting as close as possible and using hanes to do your best. if u have a belt on and cant turn yes something is wrong probly witting a valve or 2 it is an interference motor meaning it will hit valves when out of time best bet it remove belt and set cams and crank by hand carefully and use the service manual and make sure your doing it right or pay someone to do it and hope they know how. best bet is finding someone who has done it and knows their stuff... I know how hard it can be had to do the same on a dodge stratis and it was a bi*** and gotta be right before u start because it can scrap motor just read recherché and ask question's .. that's what where here for. good luck man

I got #1 to TDC and it wouldn't go any further. I'm pretty confident the valves are hitting. I'm not cranking it any further to avoid any serious damage to the engine. My mechanic is supposed to be coming over tomorrow morning to take a look. I also printed out the service manual and VFAQ steps for putting it in time encase he needs them. I just don't have the tools or expertise yet to put it in time my self. I'm probably going to have him replace the pulleys and tensioner as I don't believe they've ever been replaced yet, which is the 60k mile recommended maintenance (have replaced the belts and water pump though).

I'll report back probably Monday after talking with my mechanic to see what the next step will be. At this point it just has to be the timing as I've checked everything else.

911gdsmboostin · Sep 14, 2014

Krileon said:
Thats all already been checked. IAC is replaced. MAF is fine. BCS is fine. Suggest reading the topic as I've already replied with that information .

I turned it clockwise. It got to TDC then wouldn't go any further. I noticed when I was doing this the belt became loose and I think I made it skip time even more. I think I need a new tensioner as it seams to have a hard time keeping belts. I'll be talking with my mechanic tomorrow to see what he thinks.

I got #1 to TDC and it wouldn't go any further. I'm pretty confident the valves are hitting. I'm not cranking it any further to avoid any serious damage to the engine. My mechanic is supposed to be coming over tomorrow morning to take a look. I also printed out the service manual and VFAQ steps for putting it in time encase he needs them. I just don't have the tools or expertise yet to put it in time my self. I'm probably going to have him replace the pulleys and tensioner as I don't believe they've ever been replaced yet, which is the 60k mile recommended maintenance (have replaced the belts and water pump though).

I'll report back probably Monday after talking with my mechanic to see what the next step will be. At this point it just has to be the timing as I've checked everything else.

don't take it too hard on your self timming is just a thing that needs redone. I have a 91 fwd auto turbo... fried ecm..... cant find one anywhere :banghead:

hopfully ecmtuning will be able to help. but it could always be worse... don't forget that LOL

good luck man let us know how it goes.

pauleyman · Sep 14, 2014

I think you're probably right, it's out of time. What bother me most is that there a few possibilities that would make it skip while turning by hand except that it was not in proper tension to begin with. Given you stated your mechani retimed it I question his ability to read and follow the directions for doing so if he even bothered in the first place. It is CRITICAL that this job be done correctly. I only hope you haven't already done some damage. Concerning timing first it needs to be in time...duh...but secondly and equally important it MUST be tensioned properly and it is 100% objective. There is no "almost right, kinda sorta or just about there". It's either correctly done or it isn't. Period. The OEM measurements clearly state this. THe issue I've seen SO many times before, and it still ticks me off, is just because somebody got it back together and it started they think it's right. Then they are surprised that a day, a week or a month later it skips time and bends every damn valve in the motor. I've logged at least 300k miles in DSMs. I have never skipped a belt. EVER. Given my cars are modified I also do not follow the 60k recommended interval but rather 30k. Your results may vary but given the relatively cheap cost of a belt and the fact I do them myself I don't mind. I didn't have any skill or many tools when I started but I had a FACTORY manual and patience.

Krileon · Sep 14, 2014

pauleyman said:
I think you're probably right, it's out of time. What bother me most is that there a few possibilities that would make it skip while turning by hand except that it was not in proper tension to begin with. Given you stated your mechani retimed it I question his ability to read and follow the directions for doing so if he even bothered in the first place. It is CRITICAL that this job be done correctly. I only hope you haven't already done some damage. Concerning timing first it needs to be in time...duh...but secondly and equally important it MUST be tensioned properly and it is 100% objective. There is no "almost right, kinda sorta or just about there". It's either correctly done or it isn't. Period. The OEM measurements clearly state this. THe issue I've seen SO many times before, and it still ticks me off, is just because somebody got it back together and it started they think it's right. Then they are surprised that a day, a week or a month later it skips time and bends every damn valve in the motor. I've logged at least 300k miles in DSMs. I have never skipped a belt. EVER. Given my cars are modified I also do not follow the 60k recommended interval but rather 30k. Your results may vary but given the relatively cheap cost of a belt and the fact I do them myself I don't mind. I didn't have any skill or many tools when I started but I had a FACTORY manual and patience.

I've got the service manual printout and the VFAQ printout for replacing the timing belt and putting it in time. I'll be providing both to him if he needs them. I hope things go well this time, but am pretty worried the damage has already been done. Not much else I can do though. I've just started learning about all this so I'm not confident enough in my own abilities to be messing with the timing right now (I don't have the tools for it either, just buying them as needed, but I am pretty much out of money from this car). I've never had the pulleys replaced and so I think the tensioner is going bad, which would explain why it's losing tension over time and then slipping.

pauleyman · Sep 14, 2014

Possible but you wouldnt know without disassembly.

mustracetsi · Sep 16, 2014

When your mechanic did timing first time he missed something. Also probably either didn't inspect the tentioners, fail to tell you to replace them, especially the auto one. Could have been bad or compressed it to fast damaging it. Remember your mechanic initially did your belt. No once twice. So twice you jumped time before you even tried anything. Tensions wasn't right so I jumped. He put it back in time probably didn't check if damage accord. I would I'm hold him account for it. He did it right first time wouldn't of jumped if couldn't handle the task he should've advised you.

911gdsmboostin · Sep 16, 2014

I concur

mustracetsi said:
When your mechanic did timing first time he missed something. Also probably either didn't inspect the tentioners, fail to tell you to replace them, especially the auto one. Could have been bad or compressed it to fast damaging it. Remember your mechanic initially did your belt. No once twice. So twice you jumped time before you even tried anything. Tensions wasn't right so I jumped. He put it back in time probably didn't check if damage accord. I would I'm hold him account for it. He did it right first time wouldn't of jumped if couldn't handle the task he should've advised you.

pauleyman · Sep 16, 2014

I agree also. If this is a paid mechanic and not some buddy doing you a favor hold him accountable. From what youve said I am reasonably certain he screwed up.

Krileon · Sep 17, 2014

I agree, I think he screwed it up. I'm looking around to see if I can find another mechanic. He said he was going to come over and take a look (told me he'd come over Monday.. it's now Wednesday.. go figure). I'm pretty confident the tensioner needs replaced and probably the pulleys too as it explains why it's slowly going out of time and throwing belts. Just need to find someone reputable now that can do it in a price range that doesn't destroy my bank account as I just don't have the time, tools, or skills to get this done right now by my self.

Krileon · Mar 8, 2015

Welp, I never could get him to fix it. Still sitting in my driveway and the timing is even worse now it would seam so I've just stopped messing with it and its battery is now dead. Any idea what this could be worth? My guess is just scrap, but it sucks that it has so many new parts put into it. Anyone know any DSM shops around Dalton Georgia that would be worth giving a call to possible at least get it running?

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