So I recently had a standard wiseco wrist pin fail. I'm building a new motor with JE's, and I'm kind of spooked about the pins.

The JE pins are thinner wall than the old wiseco's. Has anyone had problems with JE wrist pins? My car made 650whp with a well worn motor, so it will probably be making more with a new motor and more compression. Is there and upgrade for JE wrist pins? They are shorter than the wiseco ones so I don't think 1400hd pins would work.

I haven't called JE on the matter yet, but planning on it.

I'm not buying a set of 1400hd's either, or any other piston for that matter.


Also first hand info only. If you post about your friend's car, I will drive to you house and burn it down.

I called JE today and explained my situation. I broke a standard Wiseco pin, and was worried about the pins in my JE's being lighter weight than my Wiseco's were. I was making 650whp. The tech at JE laughed and said "those standard pins are only good for 100hp per hole." He gave me a number for an upgraded pin. 827-2250-21-93c they are $23.59ea.

So to compile all the data I have:
I had older set of standard Wiseco's 6559M8550, and according to the new catalog I should have had #S709 pins which are .827" x 2.500" x .200" and made from 5115 low carbon steel.
However my pins were only .827" x 2.500" x .157", so it is possible they were #S624 due to being the older 6 bolt pistons. According to guys on this site this piston is rated for 150HP per hole.

There is no upgrade to the #S709 pins, and the #S709 is an upgrade to the #S624. I see some people offer standard Wiseco's with upgraded "HD" pins, I have no idea what they are. The 1400HD pin (#S721) is shorter by .138", so maybe they run them and just let them float more, or possibly they source a heavier 2.5" pin.

Anyway the #S721 pin is .827" x 2.362" x.225" and made of 9310 case hardened high-nickle low carbon steel. It is much more tougher and more ductile, leading to greater fatigue resistance. This is the heavy dutiest pin Wiseco has in 21mm diameter.

The 1400HD piston has the #S721 pin, and a "better" forging. They are rated for 350hp per hole.


Onto JE's stuff.

My pistons are #208478, and are .020 over 8.5:1 for a 6 bolt. They come standard with 827-2250-15-51c pins which are .827" x 2.250" x .150", and made of 5115 steel. They are rated according to JE for 100hp per hole.

JE offers a upgraded pin that the 6 bolt kits can be ordered with, it is #827-2250-21-93c, they are .827" x 2.250" x .210", and made from 9310 steel. JE did not give me a rating for the pistons with these pins. I'll call again and see if I can get a number from them. Unfortunately most vendors are unaware of the better pins, and do not list them on their sites, however they should be able to get them, and I'd recommend doing it.


I find it ridiculous that these piston manufacturers are even offering pistons that can't withstand as much as stock stuff. Even worse is they don't even mention it unless you ask! Finally our vendors should take some initiative and put this info out there. IF any of you have this info for other pistons please feel free to add it. Or any other pins out there. Or any insight into 5115 vs. 9310 steel.

I also talked to JE about making 11.5:1 pistons for my 2.0 and the tech mentioned that I would need the upgraded pins for my power goal (700). I thought it was weird that it is never mentioned until i called and talked to a tech but if I was to order a set off of a vendor, I wouldn't have even known about the option to upgrade the pin. I will keep an eye on this thread as I would like to know.

Up until tool steel pins were made available, the 6g72 guys were using stock thick wall pins in their builds. So many piston manufactures believe weight to be a reason people upgrade. They forget us mitsu guys just want something that won't explode when the wick gets turned up.

Thanks for that info donnie. Any idea on the thickness and material of stock 6g72's?

bastarddsm said:

Thanks for that info donnie. Any idea on the thickness and material of stock 6g72's?

Click to expand...

Not sure of material, but they are about .200" thick.

You won't find much information about wrist pin failures because they are EXTREMELY rare. I made way more torque than you and at least as much power and when the connecting rod snapped and the crank actually hit the piston right on the bosses for the wrist pin. Absolutely no damage was done to the standard Manley wrist pins. Rod is all bent up and beat up and still spins free on the pin. With you saying this was a worn engine then it was obviously a metal fatigue/not properly fitted pin/ small end wear on rod bushing(too much play)

Stock wrist pins very rarely ever fail. They are normally pulled out of the pistons before they actually fail.

Upgraded wrist pins are just as much for wrist pin flex. As the pin flexes it forces the piston to conform to the flex of the pin and this causes the piston to expand. Ever wonder why cylinder walls crack on the non thrust sides of the block?

I like the new FSR JE design. If they weren't such a pain in the ass to work with then it would be easier for me to buy there pistons.

I will stick to a piston company that you no longer trust.

I know your car made more torgue than mine and all that, but you barely drove it. Hell I ran mine at the track every weekend all summer. I got at least 5 passes a night, you should see the stack of slips!!

Lol, it definitely was not that a clearance problem. The engine was apart 2 months prior and inspected. It was rebearinged and reringed. It had .001" clearance. All three remaining rods/pins are still perfect. It most certainly was a fatigue issue that caused the failure, but it wasn't from clearance issues.

I think that broken wrist pins will be come more apparent. For most of the time making 400whp in these cars was a big deal. So obviously wrist pin failures are going to be rare. It takes 600+ horsepower for these problems to occur, and that's getting to be the norm.... Back in the day before 1400hd's, guys with standard wiseco's and power were breaking them. I can cite 2 recent examples besides mine, that were making less power. I know for a fact mine was not detonating. How long would a felpro composite last at 650whp if you let it detonate?

Anyway from the metallurgy studies I've read(remember I'm going to school for a Phd in ME ), 9310 is a much superior material for wrist pins over 5115. The fatigue resistance is huge compared to 5115

So end of the story is, if your making power get the upgraded pins. Actually. Always get upgraded pins.

just another reason why I dont run JE Stuff n run Arias. For the money you paid for JE with the upgrade you could have a set of Arias and money in your pocket

Again, you keep leaving out the key details. Where are you getting Arias for these low prices. Whats the dome like on the Arias? I chose JE's for the dome design. I paid $425 for my JE's and they were ceramic and moly coated.

Also I looked up Arias's wrist pins. They only offer a .160" wall 9310 alloy pin..... From what I am seeing we need to be .220+ 9310 for the power we can make, especially with only .827 wall. 22mm guys can get away with less.

Piston pin thread - Yellow Bullet Forums

With your 6 bolt, you can still get the 22mm wrist pins which I would do since JE can make you the higher comp and even use their new piston design.

Yeah that's true, and if I were starting from scratch I would do that. But I got a killer deal on the pistons, and am planning on using my existing rods. I don't think the .827" pins are a weak point, I just think you need to have the proper pins for your power.

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/9310.pdf
ASTM 5115 Chemical Composition, ASTM 5115 Mechanical Properties, ASTM 5115 Heat Treatment

bastarddsm said:

Again, you keep leaving out the key details. Where are you getting Arias for these low prices. Whats the dome like on the Arias? I chose JE's for the dome design. I paid $425 for my JE's and they were ceramic and moly coated.

Also I looked up Arias's wrist pins. They only offer a .160" wall 9310 alloy pin..... From what I am seeing we need to be .220+ 9310 for the power we can make, especially with only .827 wall. 22mm guys can get away with less.

Piston pin thread - Yellow Bullet Forums

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So you Paid $425.00 for new pistons plus the upgrade. Correct ?? V1 OR V2 JE PISTON ???? What was the total to your door ?? V2 part number 208478 for a 20 Over

I am a long time member of YB and you make want to PM NOS Nelson on there.

Arias with upgrade pins n upgrade rings and coated $565.00.

The very same set Mike uses

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-jdEj5eMcM]237 MPH! World's Fastest EVO! - YouTube[/ame]

No I have $425 total in my coated 208478's These would be the modern JE with larger quench pads. So I'll have just over $500 with better pins. I certainly believe the Arias are a better piston durability wise, but I don't know that I need that. I'm not going to make more power than I was. I bought the JE's for the dome design.

Where are you getting Arias for $550 at?

While nelson might know, I'll keep to my personal sources.

bastarddsm said:

No I have $425 total in my coated 208478's These would be the modern JE with larger quench pads. So I'll have just over $500 with better pins. I certainly believe the Arias are a better piston durability wise, but I don't know that I need that. I'm not going to make more power than I was. I bought the JE's for the dome design.

Where are you getting Arias for $550 at?

While nelson might know, I'll keep to my personal sources.

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I do believe I told you before when you PM me some time ago.

So the JE look like the ones in this vid. 3rd to last


[ame=http://youtu.be/QL7ri59rb5I]4G63 PISTONS - YouTube[/ame]

I have been 215mph in the mile with there off the shelf stuff and that set goes for $430ish

Yep those are the ones. I can't find anything in my PM's Pm the name to me, I might go that route anyway.

I sort of meant the rest of this post to just be informational.

Just to touch on this...wrist pin on cyl # 4 crapped out on me finally. Ross pistons w/ 21mm 5115 pins and eagle rods. Piston and rod are trashed.

Not sure exactly how much power I was making, but based on my 11.3 @ 130 and 3395 weight, I am guessing 500-600 crank based on the calculators I find on the interwebz.

Ross does NOT make a pin for my application with thicker walls. I just called them this morning to ask.

Do you guys know if pins from a different manufacturer can be used? I hate to put this thing back together just for it to happen again. I will see what I can find trying to match u measurements, but just curious as to if anybody has actually done it with success.

Try calling trend, or bme for some good pins. For what it's worth I ran a lightweight piston/pin setup with .150" wall je pins, and probe pistons. It was a fp red e85 setup pushed pretty hard. I tore it down after about 6 months, both the pistons, and pins looked great, and I'm very hard on my cars.

Many people overlook fitting the pistons, and rods for the pins.

I spoke with Bill at Trend today. Really cool guy. Listened to everything I had to say, then offered me his recommendation. He stated the H13 pins would be fine for my need (600-700 crank hp); and the DLC coating wasn't necessary since I wasn't running alcohol fuels like methanol and what not. The price per pin as long as it is a size in stock, was $26 and some change. If I wanted the coating, the price jumps to $63 and some change.

bastarddsm said:

Again, you keep leaving out the key details. Where are you getting Arias for these low prices. Whats the dome like on the Arias? I chose JE's for the dome design. I paid $425 for my JE's and they were ceramic and moly coated.

Also I looked up Arias's wrist pins. They only offer a .160" wall 9310 alloy pin..... From what I am seeing we need to be .220+ 9310 for the power we can make, especially with only .827 wall. 22mm guys can get away with less.

Piston pin thread - Yellow Bullet Forums

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In the middle of building my motor, just thought I'd throw this in for future searching. Not 9310, but comparable.