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ECMlink Very high VE table values under boost. Running lean.

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jakk220

10+ Year Contributor
1,319
312
Nov 13, 2010
Akron, Ohio
1). Any boost, vac, or exhaust leaks?
Boost leak tested 5psi above your max boost with no leaks? None


2). Verified mechanical timing?

yes

3). Verified base timing?


4). Ignition system
COP or Stock Coil: Stock
Wire brand and Age: NGK less than 6 months
Spark Plug brand, type and Gap: bpr7es gapped to .018

5). Motor health (Compression Test)
Cylinder 1: 170
Cylinder 2: 170
Cylinder 3: 170
Cylinder 4: 170

6). Performed basic throttle body adjustments?
Idle Switch: yes
Throttle Cable: yes
TPS: yes
BISS: yes

7). Compression ratio

9:1

8). Any known bad sensors or brittle wiring?

None

9). Any DTC/CEL codes?

None


10). Electrical system
Car off (not running):
Car running:

11). Base fuel pressure and injector values
Base Fuel Pressure: 47.0 (I know needs adjusted, just switched to a more accurate gauge)
Injector Size (cc/min): 1450cc

12). Properly calibrated and configured wideband sensor
Sensor Brand: AEM
Calibration Date: N/A

13). Type of fuel
Type: E85
Percent of Ethanol: Unkown

14). Watched ECMlink how-to videos?

Yes





Currently working with my tuner on an issue that was noticed after my switch to speed density. Did not get very far in the tune before he noticed it. The problem that he is having with my car is that the VE values are super high in boost, the car goes lean, and that is all with the injectors scaled down lower than they already should be even for E85.

What I have checked and know:

- Fuel pressure goes up 1:1 with boost so no pressure issue
- Injectors were cleaned of some E85 goo that they had one them and soaked in seafoam
- Fuel pump was checked for any leaks where it connects to the hanger.


This is what the VE table looks like:
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This is what the important part of the log looks like (Log files are also uploaded to this post.)


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I am sending out the injectors to FIC to have them flow tested and cleaned because to me and my tuner, that has to be the issue. But I was posting to here just to see if anyone else has an idea of what it could be that I could test in the meantime. Thanks.
 

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Could be injectors, after all Blue Max injectors are notorious for sucking ass. Your fuel curve is pretty consistent, though. Maybe a bit too consistent for injectors to be the issue.

I'd want to rule out a possible pump issue. Is your pump rewired? You need to make sure you have full voltage and adequate amperage going to the pump.

Anything that would restrict flow, or the pump's ability to pump could also be an issue. A restriction at the pump sock, or any fittings/lines leading up to/from the rail could cause a problem. What fuel filter are you running, and when's the last time it was serviced?
 
Could be injectors, after all Blue Max injectors are notorious for sucking ass. Your fuel curve is pretty consistent, though. Maybe a bit too consistent for injectors to be the issue.

I'd want to rule out a possible pump issue. Is your pump rewired? You need to make sure you have full voltage and adequate amperage going to the pump.

Anything that would restrict flow, or the pump's ability to pump could also be an issue. A restriction at the pump sock, or any fittings/lines leading up to/from the rail could cause a problem. What fuel filter are you running, and when's the last time it was serviced?

The pump is pretty much brand new and the sock looked fine when I had the pump out yesterday. The fuel filter was changed right before I made the switch to E85 which was about 2 years ago I believe. 3 at the most. It is a stock filter and all of the lines are stock as well. The pump is not rewired.
If the fuel filter was an issue or the voltage I would think that the pressure would be dropping off wouldn't it? I will change the fuel filter either tomorrow or Wednesday just to rule it out.
 
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A 2-3 year old stock filter running on E85 would be my first suspicion.

Your pump should be running off of its own relay, with a direct 12v connection to battery voltage. I would never advise running a 450 off of the stock wiring. I'd be interested to see what kind of current your pump is pulling through the stock harness at 60+ psi of fuel pressure. I guarantee whatever that number is, the stock wiring wasn't intended to handle it. I'd put rewiring your pump on your immediate to-do list if I were you.

A clogged fuel filter may not necessarily cause a drop in pressure. It would, however, limit flow, which your pressure gauge will typically not show you.
 
A 2-3 year old stock filter running on E85 would be my first suspicion.

Your pump should be running off of its own relay, with a direct 12v connection to battery voltage. I would never advise running a 450 off of the stock wiring. I'd be interested to see what kind of current your pump is pulling through the stock harness at 60+ psi of fuel pressure. I guarantee whatever that number is, the stock wiring wasn't intended to handle it. I'd put rewiring your pump on your immediate to-do list if I were you.

A clogged fuel filter may not necessarily cause a drop in pressure. It would, however, limit flow, which your pressure gauge will typically not show you.


Well you said it, ill do it. Just ordered a re-wire kit and I will replace the filter either tomorrow or on Wednesday. If that doesnt fix it then I will send out the injectors.
 
Chop the filter open and see how the element looks after you pull it.

Sure will do! I should be working on it tomorrow unless I get this call out for work. So ill report back then. If the fuel filter doesn't fix it then i'm going to wait to send the injectors out until I rule out the fuel pump rewire.

This is pretty much 100% a fueling issue though correct?
 
I don't see anything in your log that would suggest it's an issue with the tune, if that's what you're asking.

With a global fuel setting that rich, coupled with the incredibly rich SD table, it's pretty likely it's a mechanical issue of some sort.
 
I don't see anything in your log that would suggest it's an issue with the tune, if that's what you're asking.

With a global fuel setting that rich, coupled with the incredibly rich SD table, it's pretty likely it's a mechanical issue of some sort.


No I know something mechanical is wrong. I just wanted to make sure it couldn't be something else going wrong other than the fuel system. I mean, I know it looks to be 100% a fueling issue, but over the years these cars surprise me more and more LOL.
 
It's hard to say, but I'd be fairly confident in saying it's a mechanical fuel problem.
 
It's hard to say, but I'd be fairly confident in saying it's a mechanical fuel problem.

Gotcha. The only other possible thing I think it could be is a wideband reading issue. And even then like my tuner said, it would read wrong all the time and it seems to be okay cruising.
 
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Gotcha. The only other possible thing I think it could be is a wideband reading issue. And even then like my tuner said, it would read wrong all the time and it seems to be okay cruising.

Pics of the filter. Looks pretty clean actually. I changed it and its still running lean. Im going to send out the injectors today. Fuel pump rewire is in the mail aswell. Any other ideas in the meantime??
 
Holy hell, if you don't have a fuel pump rewire done then that's unforgiveable :) I'm not certain, but you could have good pressure but not good flow from the pump. Don't quote me.
 
Yeah, filter looks clean. It could very well be the injectors, it just wouldn't be high on my list of likely issues to check for first.

Just ensure you don't have any restrictions or kinks in the lines leading up to or from the rail. Also, not sure how your fuel pump is installed on the hanger, but that could cause issues as well. People have commonly had issues when using crappy fittings to adapt the 450 pumps to the hanger body. There's actually a good video on this in one of the Facebook groups I saw recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dsmlinksupportline/permalink/743547995817301/

Have you tried to give your fuel pressure a little bump up to see if you get any change to your AFRs?
 
^^ Was going to suggest Kenny's video, since the fuel system is stock I'd assume the hanger is stock. That 450 has plenty of power to pump out pressure, but you could be losing flow from a pump O-ring going up into the hanger not sealing properly.
 
^^ Was going to suggest Kenny's video, since the fuel system is stock I'd assume the hanger is stock. That 450 has plenty of power to pump out pressure, but you could be losing flow from a pump O-ring going up into the hanger not sealing properly.

Yeah, filter looks clean. It could very well be the injectors, it just wouldn't be high on my list of likely issues to check for first.

Just ensure you don't have any restrictions or kinks in the lines leading up to or from the rail. Also, not sure how your fuel pump is installed on the hanger, but that could cause issues as well. People have commonly had issues when using crappy fittings to adapt the 450 pumps to the hanger body. There's actually a good video on this in one of the Facebook groups I saw recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dsmlinksupportline/permalink/743547995817301/

Have you tried to give your fuel pressure a little bump up to see if you get any change to your AFRs?

The video is about me! LOL. That is my log and he is the one tuning my car LOL. My name is Zach. So the videos in the comments with my name of the 450 pump test are mine. I checked and it was not leaking there. All the lines have been inspected and there are no kinks.
 
Yeah, filter looks clean. It could very well be the injectors, it just wouldn't be high on my list of likely issues to check for first.

Just ensure you don't have any restrictions or kinks in the lines leading up to or from the rail. Also, not sure how your fuel pump is installed on the hanger, but that could cause issues as well. People have commonly had issues when using crappy fittings to adapt the 450 pumps to the hanger body. There's actually a good video on this in one of the Facebook groups I saw recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/dsmlinksupportline/permalink/743547995817301/

Have you tried to give your fuel pressure a little bump up to see if you get any change to your AFRs?

Also Kenny told me not to change the fuel pressure because that shouldnt be the problem. He said to send the injectors out to FIC which I did.
 
I agree that shouldn't be the problem, but it's an easy check to do. Although, if there's a restriction somewhere, it won't do much.

At this point, it's probably a good idea to send the injectors out, and get them looked at.

BTW, Kenny is a boss at tuning, so I'd trust his advice.
 
I agree that shouldn't be the problem, but it's an easy check to do. Although, if there's a restriction somewhere, it won't do much.

At this point, it's probably a good idea to send the injectors out, and get them looked at.

BTW, Kenny is a boss at tuning, so I'd trust his advice.

Yep they are in the mail and will be at FIC on Friday. Thanks for helping me with this issue btw. I was a little worried at first with finding a tuner on a facebook page but he always seemed very knowledgeable so I figured why not. I'm real picky about who tinkers with my car and get paranoid about stuff like that LOL. Glad to hear from someone reputable on the forums that he is good at what he does. Eases any worries I may have had.

By the time the injectors get checked out the fuel pump will be rewired and ready to go. I know shame on me for not having the pump rewired already. I have a set of 880s I might toss in just to see what happens. They have some E85 goo I need to clean off of them first.
 
I imagine yall are referring to Kenny Kline. I remember him posting up something about fuel pressure. I just don't want to spend $120 on sensor right now, but maybe I will. He actually just got me setup as well. Very knowledgeable guy.
 
I've personally never had any tuning done by him, but he has a good reputation with the community, and other tuners I do know.

Tuning is one of those "Teach a man to fish" type things, IMO. A second opinion is always good from a knowledgeable tuner, but knowing what your tuner is doing, and why they're doing it is truly indispensable. I'm not even close to a tuning expert, but just tinkering with my own builds and tunes has made all the difference in the success of my build.

You hear people saying they have tuning secrets, but what they really have is many lessons learned after tons and tons of experience. That experience is what you're paying for if your tuner is worth a damn. The only way to get that experience is to DO, which is why I always encourage members here to make the leap and start tuning their own stuff.
 
I imagine yall are referring to Kenny Kline. I remember him posting up something about fuel pressure. I just don't want to spend $120 on sensor right now, but maybe I will. He actually just got me setup as well. Very knowledgeable guy.

https://www.ebay.com/i/261260635816?chn=ps&dispItem=1

It threads right into the spot where your fuel pressure gauge is on your regulator. You can run it to an ECU input and log fuel pressure. That is the one Kenny recommended to me and it is working great so far.

I've personally never had any tuning done by him, but he has a good reputation with the community, and other tuners I do know.

Tuning is one of those "Teach a man to fish" type things, IMO. A second opinion is always good from a knowledgeable tuner, but knowing what your tuner is doing, and why they're doing it is truly indispensable. I'm not even close to a tuning expert, but just tinkering with my own builds and tunes has made all the difference in the success of my build.

You hear people saying they have tuning secrets, but what they really have is many lessons learned after tons and tons of experience. That experience is what you're paying for if your tuner is worth a damn. The only way to get that experience is to DO, which is why I always encourage members here to make the leap and start tuning their own stuff.

I have actually never paid anyone for a tune on my car. This is the first time. I just had no idea how to tune with speed density coming from MAFcomp. I read and read and read about it but I just needed to have someone point me in the right direction. Which is why I went to Kenny originally. He said it would best if he tuned it to get it straightened out first, and then teach me along the way while he tunes it. Which is awesome! And you are right it is indispensable.

One of my biggest problems was I was taught wrong on how to tune my car in the past. Now the past year or so I got it right with my MAF, but was overrunning it with my HX40 and needed to make the move. I did make 425 on Buschurs Dyno at the shootout last year though. Hoping to see 500 this year if im lucky.
 
Well the fuel pump re-wire is complete. So that will eliminate that being an issue. FIC just got the injectors Friday so I should hear back from them early to mid next week on their condition. Also I installed the Toyota seal on the fuel pump even though it was not leaking from the O-ring. Mainly because I just don't trust it.
 
Looking forward to learn more.
Great advice about the fuel pressure sensor.

That's great better than another gauge.
And cheaper too.

What pin did you use? I'm going to copy you on this one.

I used the Baro pin and just wired it into the ecu harness. You can use any open pin though obviously

If you look in the description of the product there is a 10ft cable you can buy for $11 if you want to do that. It works really well and i'm glad I got it.

It is really easy to wire up. Red goes to 5v power (pin 81 green and yellow), black goes to ground (I used pin 92), and white goes to open pin input.
 
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