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Turbo System Tech: 4G63 turbos, Intercooling, Boost Control, Wastegates, etc.

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Old 12-02-2009, 07:20 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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FP68HTA - Back to Back Vs an E3 16g!


Seeing as I can't post in any sections other than noob - here I go.

I've recently ordered (should be here any day) the FP68HTA through MAP (Cheers Adam). It's being shipped down here in Australia and I'll do some back to back dyno runs to gauge how it performs for us 'normal' folk running basic bolt-ons.

My mods are in my profile (my build log has dissapeared??). Car runs fairly hard with a japanese ecu in it (Tomei) but detonation is a killer above 20psi. I have NOT tuned the car at all.

9.0:1 compression


Here is the plan:

Baseline power run at chosen Dyno Dynamics dyno in shoot 4F.
Return home, unbolt the stock Evo 3 big 16g turbo and bolt the FP68HTA up - change nothing..
Return to the dyno, aim to run run the same boost as before - print off the map overlays showing boost, AFR's, torque and power.

Turn up the boost if it alows. I'm hoping the FP68 is a little more timing friendly than the E3 turbo? we'll see...

Can't get more 'real world' than:

Unbolt a genuine evo 3 turbo from a genuine evo 3 - stock manifolds, stock intercooler, stock intercooler pipes. Just some 260/260 cams, ecu & 3".
Bolt on an FP68HTA and see what the difference is at the same boost, then see how much more boost (if any) it will run before it dets..

Same AFR's, same timing - no tricks, no meth - pump fuel

I will:

Post up the timing maps once it's tuned on the Haltech
Video what I can
validate any increase in power with MPH at the strip


I'm not after a big turbo (nor do I need it), I'm after a better evo 3 turbo with more usable power.
I don't want massive mph, it's a circuit car. I need autox type power delivery with good midrange torque.. I want a bit more top end for when I do go to the strip and the bigger circuits hurt the 16g's top end (well, lack of top end)...

Anything anyone wants to see done while I'm at it or thinks I should do?

Unfortunately I can't log the Tomei ECU (OBDI).. tried and failed - nothing talks to it..

I'll update as I get results.. The only problem is it's coming into summer now and temperatures are getting up to ~ 104 Deg F this weekend and getting hotter from there. Results won't be as good as they could be but they will be comparable.


Then: once all the comparrisons are made I'll tune it with the Haltech E11v2 I have now installed. Return to the strip - Check the MPH.



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Old 12-02-2009, 07:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Sweet!

This will be great as ive been wondering how much difference in change the new HTA will improve spool/power/lbs min

Great work


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Old 12-02-2009, 07:39 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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You have a great idea, but only one problem.
You claim you're not going to change anything about your tune.
This in my mind is a bad idea.
The FP68HTA is going to flow more air than a standard Evo III 16g at the same boost level, and instead of the boost tapering off up top like a standard Evo III 16g, it'll hold to redline better.

If anything, I suggest raising the octane of your fuel.
This way when the FP68HTA flows more air at the same boost level and your A/F ratio leans out throughout your power band, you'll at least have some protection against detonation.

Detonation, or Knock will bend and break OEM connecting rods and hammer rod bearings and cause them to spin.

You have been forewarned, and good luck!

***Edit*** I mentioned Knock will bend and break OEM Internals, he does not have OEM Internals, but nevertheless, Knock will kill any engine, especially if it's 104* outside in the shade... ***Edit***


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Last edited by Strm Trpr; 12-02-2009 at 07:54 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:55 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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Strm Trpr: Point taken, although..

The japanese ecu's, if anything 'go rich' when boost is turned up. It already pulls 10.0's up top..

Obviously if the turbo does really well and it goes lean we'll get off it, so thanks.



fwiw, running forged 2.0 - Eagle rods, Manley pistons.


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Old 12-02-2009, 07:59 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVO_THREE View Post
Strm Trpr: Point taken, although..

The japanese ecu's, if anything 'go rich' when boost is turned up. It already pulls 10.0's up top..

Obviously if the turbo does really well and it goes lean we'll get off it, so thanks.



fwiw, running forged 2.0 - Eagle rods, Manley pistons.
What octane fuel are you running and what is your peak timing at 7k rpm?
10.0 is very rich.
I can run 11.0 on 91 octane at 20psi with 14* timing
It's all about airflow tuning, but then again you are running a 9.0 compression motor.

Oh, and FWIW, when I run richer 10.5 it knocks...
If I lean it out knock goes away.

I have yet to tune it with my new fuel pump though, so those numbers are hopefully going to improve.


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Old 12-02-2009, 08:06 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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I'm very interested to see the turnout of this turbo as well compared to the 16g.

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Old 12-02-2009, 08:12 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsmj89 View Post
I'm very interested to see the turnout of this turbo as well compared to the 16g.
Holy Sh!t you have 1600 posts in what, 1 year.
Damn you've been busy...


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Old 12-02-2009, 08:20 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strm Trpr View Post
Holy Sh!t you have 1600 posts in what, 1 year.
Damn you've been busy...
Hahhaa oops. I tend to post both at home and work.

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Old 12-02-2009, 08:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strm Trpr View Post
This in my mind is a bad idea.
The FP68HTA is going to flow more air than a standard Evo III 16g at the same boost level.
How so? Compressor efficiency have very little to do with the mass flow in the compressor. Choke flow does. But if he's not going to push either to choke, then you'll see similar flow from both. They both have the same hotside.


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Old 12-02-2009, 09:49 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strm Trpr View Post
What octane fuel are you running and what is your peak timing at 7k rpm?
10.0 is very rich.
I can run 11.0 on 91 octane at 20psi with 14* timing
It's all about airflow tuning, but then again you are running a 9.0 compression motor.
I believe the OP was referring to the JDM ecu's leaner factory set target a/fs versus the usdm's very rich 9.3:1 at 7k
Anyways the results will be very interesting to see!
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:53 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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I look forward to seeing the results

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Old 12-02-2009, 09:57 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast82 View Post
I believe the OP was referring to the JDM ecu's leaner factory set target a/fs versus the usdm's very rich 9.3:1 at 7k
Anyways the results will be very interesting to see!
Remember, there are no USDM evo3 ecus


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Old 12-02-2009, 10:01 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster View Post
How so? Compressor efficiency have very little to do with the mass flow in the compressor. Choke flow does. But if he's not going to push either to choke, then you'll see similar flow from both. They both have the same hotside.
Whatever you say Haas, you're the "DSM Wiseman" .


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Old 12-02-2009, 10:18 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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I really want to know what you think. I'm not a wise man. Just a "wiseman". . .


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Old 12-02-2009, 10:23 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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Very cool test as not many have seen what this turbo can do. When do you plan on doing it? ASAP! lol

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Old 12-02-2009, 10:31 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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Well, you know what I thought, and perhaps I thought wrong.
I just figured that the HTA Wheel is going to push more air per psi that it may lean out his tune.
Maybe I worded my original statement incorrectly.
But we all won't know until we see his results.
Nah Matt, you're cool, I just build my GSX to road race and I'm going through boost withdrawls like a mutha.
I haven't driven my car since 6th of November cause I killed my front brake calipers.
Not to worry though, TCE Wilwood BBK is on the way...

I don't have a clue how any of this sh!t works, I just turn in and gas it....


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Old 12-02-2009, 11:09 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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Makes sense. Except that if the compressor pushed more air then it would raise the pressure, and the wastegate would adjust accordingly. IF the massflow is speculated to go up with the lower temperature output from the compressor, then take a look at what the difference in final temp is with the same 75% efficienct front mount intercooler using this little calculator. Click.

I knew what you were saying. I was hoping you would talk about efficiency of the compressor allowing the wastegate to linger open longer That WOULD give much more flow out the turbine: less work to spin the compressor at a certain volume flow means less work is needed from the turbine and thus more exhaust is shunted giving higher overall VE (flow). I'm still suggesting peak flow per psi would be the same. No matter the setup, at 27-8psi, the evo3 16g turbine is shut. And it will shut at a slightly higher flow for a slightly more efficiency compressor. But still it will close long before choke flow of any compressor is seen. We're not talking about a t4 ptrim turbine wheel here.

No beef. Just wanted to discuss . You know I know you're bright, like you know I knew what you were thinking. You know?


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Old 12-02-2009, 11:21 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xreaction122 View Post
Remember, there are no USDM evo3 ecus
Kidding me? You don't think I know that
That's not going to qualify as my "learn something new everyday" , sorry

I have personally viewed the fuel maps of the jdm evo3 ecu and they do run a leaner fuel mix versus the USDM T/E/L ECUs
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Old 12-02-2009, 12:11 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Curt Brown (Sewickley, PA)

Want to thank Forced Performance yet again for a kick ass product, the 68HTA. Truly a 100% bolt on upgrade for any 14b through 16G, from the first drive I noticed near 10 lb's a minute more airflow over a small 16G and had no extra lag, can't ask for anything better than that. Another benifit ive seen is zero surge, FP really did this one right, good job! Dyno #'s coming, waiting for a custom SMIM then of to the dyno... 500hp on a stock block and basic stock car? Lets hope so.
This is from fp's website. Althought he switched from a small 16g, I think it still proves the point that at the same psi it will raise the massflow.

I can't wait to see the results.
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Old 12-02-2009, 12:20 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
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You know, I read that too, so maybe that's why I thought what I thought.
I'm gonna come out and ask a stupid question.

Does ^^^ mean at the same boost level Curt noticed a 10lb/min increase in Airflow?

So that's basically the same as saying a GT35R at 20psi flows a sh!t ton more air than an Evo III 16g at 20psi.

That's what I thought, but damn that's a huge increase in Airflow.
That's good for approximately 100hp to the crank.


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