I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by Slippi84

I agree that's why I don't think either the 4088r or the non BB version.

I agree going with a build head is usefull always but not needed for your goals. You said you want to know what's best to buy with the money you have to reach your goals I think upgrading your INtake manifold and cams would be money better spent. Not to say the mangus is a bad manifold just for 650whp I think the welds begin to become a liability. You could sell it for $3-$500 and use the money to upgrade to something fitted up with a q45 tb or such and breath a little better up top.

The throttle body isn't the restriction -- it is the manifold itself. As well, his cams are just fine.

You can do over 700AWHP on a magnus; but it is much less efficient on the 2.3L and 2.4L engines at higher rpms and higher boost levels.

[Slippi84]

Originally Posted by twicks69

The throttle body isn't the restriction -- it is the manifold itself. As well, his cams are just fine.

You can do over 700AWHP on a magnus; but it is much less efficient on the 2.3L and 2.4L engines at higher rpms and higher boost levels.

It's not a restiction but like you said on a stroker at high boost a magnus is less effecicent and can be upgraded for reasonably cheap. WHile upgrading you might as well get it suited for q45 that can be picked up for $150.

[jkimes]

I don't know what a q45 is but im guessing it's a larger throttle body than my 62mm BBK. It's really funny how quickly parts become obsolete. I've been repairing and upgrading computers for people for years and I have always been amazed how fast cpu and motherboard technology evolves but apparently even PC parts don't advance as quickly as performance parts do. Three years ago (shortly after I purchased my scm61) I went ahead and upgraded to a Venom intake manifold (Which made a big top end improvement over stock). At the time there were some new intake manifold tests out that suggested that the Venom made the most power out of all the manifolds tested, but a few months after I upgraded many started suggesting that the Venom was junk and that a Magnus was the only way to go. I scrapped my Venom Mani and spent the extra cash on a Magnus and noticed a significant low end power improvement. I also upgraded to FP3 cams around the same time when I built my 2.4 block because of their superior performance on larger displacement engines and soon after FP3x and BC 280 cams came out. Cheese and rice.. it never ends. I'm sure items you suggested would probably be a slight improvement, however... I'm working on an extreme budget here and everything I have read suggests that a 62mm throttle body, FP3 cams, and a magnus intake should get me to my goals. I think the best bang for the buck upgrade I can make at this point is a turbo upgrade, but the real debate I've been having is whether to spend $200-$300 upgrading my scm6176 to a full T4, or spend $1300 and get a brand spanking new s372.

[We're on Boost]

Jkimes, the way I read it, you are not asking "why am I only making 350 hp 17psi", you are asking "why is my power falling off above 6000 rpm". Right?
It looks like you are using an internal wastegate in the .63 a/r PTE DSM housing. From what I've seen of internal wastegates, I'd have to wonder if maybe your wastegate is just blowing open. I don't see a boost log anywhere for that dyno run. Do you think it's just a matter of your boost not holding due to crappy wastegate performance?

Wait a minute, what is a "milled center section"? And is your turbine wheel a P trim? In a DSM style housing?

Gary

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by We're on Boost

Jkimes, the way I read it, you are not asking "why am I only making 350 hp 17psi", you are asking "why is my power falling off above 6000 rpm". Right?
It looks like you are using an internal wastegate in the .63 a/r PTE DSM housing. From what I've seen of internal wastegates, I'd have to wonder if maybe your wastegate is just blowing open. I don't see a boost log anywhere for that dyno run. Do you think it's just a matter of your boost not holding due to crappy wastegate performance?

Wait a minute, what is a "milled center section"? And is your turbine wheel a P trim? In a DSM style housing?

Gary

Gary,

A "milled center section" refers to the divider between the wastegate passage and the exhaust passage being milled out, combining the turbine exhaust with the wastegate exhaust. This is mainly done to increase boost stability and allowing the wastegate exhaust uninhibited flow, so you don't see boost creep.

The SCM6176SP (I didn't look closely until now that I cannot find a mitsu-flanged part number for the P-trim version though) uses a T350 center section with a 76-trim P-trim 74mm inducer/64.5mm exducer turbine wheel in a itty-bitty mitsubishi-flanged turbine housing. This turbo usually comes with the T350 "stage 5" turbine wheel though (SCM6152SP), which is one "level" below the P-trim wheel on the Precision Turbo buildsheet. It is extremely capable when used in a 0.68 A/R or 0.81 A/R T4 undivided turbine housing in conjunction with a capable external wastegate mounted on the exhaust manifold collector (44mm TiAL works nicely! ).

The performance issues he will be seeing on this turbo in conjunction with a 2.4L setup is that it cannot flow enough in the higher rpms of the engine due to the massive chokehold that the mitsubishi turbine housing provides. Though he has not reached that chokehold at his current low-boost levels, it will be evident around 25-26psi above 5500-6000rpms.

Currently, his cams, intake manifold, or throttle body are not the flow issue -- his 2G unported cylinder head, and the mitsubishi-flanged turbo are the flow restrictions preventing him from maximizing the top-end power of his turbo setup. Changing over to a unported 1G or ported 2G cylinder head, T4 exhaust manifold with external wastegate and a T4 turbine housing will free up a ton of power to be effectively produced from his engine. Again, proper adjustment of his cam gears on a dyno will aid in changing the powerband of the current setup, and can maximize the power at the top-end, but at some sacrifice to spoolup and loss of mid-range power.

[Slippi84]

Yes but you are forgetting by selling your stuff you have you will cut into the cost of the new stuff. You can get good money for your cams and Magnus and that TB and upgrade and flow BETTER. I'm not saying you can't do it with what you have but when I mod I would rather have too much than just enough because most of us are not like twick. He not only built his car with just the right stuff but he tuned it dam near perfect. He spools like a t3 50 trim and makes 730whp or something nuts. Most of us normal folk lol won't see numbers like that with those same parts. I know guys with bigger turbos than him and better parts that make less than 600whp simply because they didn't have someone to tune it professionally.

Upgrading to a t4 hot side in your case would get you more bang for your buc than going with a new turbo. Keep in mind though twick tunes with AEM EMS so he has more fine tuning control than you with the link thaough. I used the link on my 1g tsi it was the best thing I ever bought but it is not the end all be all now that I have messed with standalone. IF yoru looking for a compramise turbo wise you should look for something holset like a hx52.

[jkimes]

Swordfish did some back to back dyno comparisons a few years back that showed the same FP3 cams I have in my car making 50+ whp more than the 272's (The same one's Twicks was using when he made 740whp) on stroker motors, so I'm not really sure why anyone thinks I need a cam upgrade at this point.

[Slippi84]

Originally Posted by jkimes

The FP3 cams I have in my car have been proven to make 50+ whp more than the 272's Twicks is using, so I'm not really sure why anyone thinks I need a cam upgrade at this point.

I don't think anyone is quite sure why you are trying to build a setup that will make enough power to break stuff without money to fix it either but ask and ye shall recieve. Yoru cams are fine but you seem to think you need to go faster so we're tellin you what we think will help you. To be honest that turbo you have has made more hp then yoru making I say just tune for more boost and save your money. Hell ludachris himself runs that turbo and made some nice power.

[jkimes]

Slippi, I realize you guys are trying to help and I appreciate your input. I'm certainly not afraid of breaking my car... I drive a high hp dsm that I've only been able to drive for about a year and a half ouf the 5 years I've owned it because im always upgrading or fixing something. I know things are going to break occasionally. I make a good living and I should have more than enough money to fix things in the future when they break, but right now I have 5k to spend and I don't want to go over that budget because I'm not a big fan of being in debt.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by jkimes

So, I'm aiming for 600-700whp+tq and high 9's in my full weight 2g. My car made almost 350hp/tq at a measly 17psi of boost with my current scm6176 on pump gas but it seemed to choke after 6k rpm's. Does the power falling off after 6k on this graph indicate that I need headwork?

FP3 cams have more overlap than 272 or fp2 and fp2x cams. And more overlap than 280s. It's the more dialed in overlap that matches the higher piston speed, and consequently air velocity, of a stroker along with a proper sized turbine that has the fp3s yield more power than 272s with a stroker motor. The 2.0 can get away with and actually needs (to a certain extent) the tighter angle turbine housing.

Now, I have to agree with Tim whole heartedly about the 2g head and 2g intake manifold are choking you a bit. But more importantly, his mention of the small bolton housing being another choke is what I think is really manifesting itself. High overlap cams DO NOT like small turbine housing at decent boost later in the rpm range. You turbine housing is creating more backpressure than other housings you can use. This backpressure is literally feeding exhaust gases back into your cylinders. This exhibits itself when your turbine needs lots of pressure to keep your compressor spooled enough to flow (undersized compressor). Or it manifests itself if your turbine or turbine housing is too small. A lower overlap cam like the 272 would likely give YOU more power, because YOUR setup uses a small turbine housing for that turbine wheel. You have adustable cam gears. Dial out the oveerlap. fp2X cams have the same profile but with the exhasut cam gear advanced about 3-5 degrees. Try that first. You may see little to no loss in power down low, and see more too redline.

I think it's time to ditch the 2g intake manifold with it's smaller plenum. The plenum makes a significant difference in peak power with a turbo setup. I don't think the runners are a choke YET. But the only proper way to get a larger 1g intake mani plenum is to run a matching 1g head

[pneumo]

Perhaps it's time to set priorities?
The mods that twicks laid out should be done first. They should give you the biggest bang for the buck. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

If you still want to squeeze more power out of your setup after doing the mods twicks recomended, then start looking at the TB and different smim.

[Slippi84]

Originally Posted by pneumo

Perhaps it's time to set priorities?
The mods that twicks laid out should be done first. They should give you the biggest bang for the buck. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

If you still want to squeeze more power out of your setup after doing the mods twicks recomended, then start looking at the TB and different smim.

I don't debate any mods that twick suggests or recommends as he has been there and knows where the power is to be had but you have to look at with money in mind. Changing to a smim and tb is a lot more affordable than getting a ported and polished head or trans work.

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by jkimes

The FP3 cams I have in my car have been proven to make 50+ whp more than the 272's Twicks is using, so I'm not really sure why anyone thinks I need a cam upgrade at this point.

I have now changed to 288 cams (comp customs from the old days before HKS produced theirs). I only made an additional 15-30HP over the HKS 272/272 cam setup.

Either way, your cams are just fine.

[Slippi84]

Just looked at your profile take them resonators out yoru exhaust they are a waste and when you upgrade either hot side or turbo's go with a true 3" full exhaust. That and you knwo you need to get rid of those 880's. I would suggest waiting FIC has a new style 1600cc injector coming out that will not have any of the part throttle and cruising problems the old style did.

Everyone seems to be on the same page about your IM though so if cams are cool I would look into that. Your turbo and trans are the only things that DEF won't cut it at 650whp+.

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by Slippi84

I don't debate any mods that twick suggests or recommends as he has been there and knows where the power is to be had but you have to look at with money in mind. Changing to a smim and tb is a lot more affordable than getting a ported and polished head or trans work.

Well, I have gone through MANY setups over the last 6 years, trying as many combinations as possible to find the most streetable/highest HP/TQ setup and I only try to help people with the knowledge I have gotten from doing all this "trial and error" to save you all a ton of money and alot of time wasted. I would in no way want to blow smoke up any of your asses because it is not fair. In all actuality, I have already done this setup on my car about 4 years ago, with the only difference being the cams -- I was running 264/272's and then 272/272's prior to the change over from a 2.0L to my built 2.3L motor.

When working on a car utilizing a stock port 2G cylinder head and a mitsubishi flanged turbo, it is a good combination up to around 450-500whp. It is a great street setup that can make excellent mid-range power. You will not maximize the top-end potential of the turbo on this setup though. Swapping to an UNPORTED 1G cylinder head is pretty darn cheap, and it doesn't need to be a "ported and polished" head. The downfall to changing over to the 1G head is minimal, but it does mean that you are sacrificing spoolup to obtain more top-end power. Next, a 1G intake manifold will outflow the crap out of a 2G intake manifold == period. You should be able to make 485-500whp on a 1G cylinder head setup.

The key issue now is that the cylinder head can flow more than the turbine housing on the turbo. Heck, if you ran the car at the track on a 2G head vs. the 1G head (just doing the swap and running a 1G intake manifold), your car may actually lose MPH because you lost a bit of midrange, and the turbo cannot perform in the new powerband freed up by the 1G head. To remedy this, I reccomended changing over to a T4 turbine housing and exhaust manifold in conjunction with an external wastegate. This will free up a ton of horsepower across the mid and upper rpm range, letting you to have a powerband that shifts slightly to the right, but allows you to make alot more horsepower through the 5000-8000rpm range.

The next restriction would be the intake manifold. Sure, you could probably use a 1G intake manifold still, but it will be a major restriction. In Jkimes' place, he has said numerous times that he will be trying out the Magnus SMIM on his setup. This will do just fine on this turbo. With the proper fuel system (minimum requirement being 880-1000cc fuel injectors with a walboro 255HP fuel pump and -6AN lines), the car can make over 600-650whp.

After this level, it becomes a little harder to find easy, cheap power.

To review:

Existing setup:
*2.4L with a Crower/Wiseco 9.0:1 setup
*Mitsu-flanged SCM6176SP (0.63 A.R mitsu)
*Mitsu 2G ported exhaust manifold
*Tubular O2 housing
*3" Exhaust
*Internal wastegate
*2G unported cylinder head
*BBK 62mm Throttle Body
*2G-flanged Magnus Sheet Metal Intake Manifold
*FP3 cams with FP dual springs/retainers
*880cc injectors with a well built fuel setup -- the only thing you would need to change for higher HP on a bigger turbo will be your fuel injectors -- 1000cc injectors would be a requirement then.
*Big FMIC with 3" IC pipes.
*DSMLink with Wideband controller (Innovate LC-1)
*Shep Stage 1 transmission (essentially a stock rebuild)
*SBR4000 clutch and a Fidanza Flywheel
*Prothane Motor-Mount inserts

Proposed changes:
*PTE SC6176SP with a 0.68 or 0.81 A/R T4 undivided turbine housing with a V-Band discharge (you will want to go with the 0.81 A/R housing to maximize the turbo on your 2.4L setup. I would reccomend the 0.68 A/R for 2.0L setups and street-revving 2.3L setups).
*T4 tubular exhaust manifold with 44mm external wastegate flange on collector.
*TiAL 44mm external wastegate with dumptube.
*New 3" downpipe with V-Band flange installed and an O2 bung welded on, since the O2 housing goes bye-bye.
*1G unported cylinder head with your springs and retainers swapped over, 3G lifters (late model 2G lifters)
*ARP 7-bolt cylinder head studs (check them if you are going to reuse them for thread stretch)
*New Mitsubishi Multi-Layer-Steel cylinder head gasket
*62mm BBK throttle body
*1G-flanged Sheet Metal Intake Manifold (SMIM) -- I have my preferences with Beyond Redline Performance SMIM, but I am partial because it is a badass-work-of-art that made a ton of power over the 1G Magnus and other SMIM's on my car -- the Magnus will be just fine for right now. If you wanted to find easy power in the future, this is an upgradable part.
*Better motor mounts -- the front/rear inserts are garbage and don't do anything useful -- you will break axles or transmission parts. Upgrade to solid urethane or metal front/rear mounts; it may vibrate more, but you will save alot more parts.

*A better transmission package will be a requirement in the future -- your 2-spider center differential will not handle the power, and your 3rd/4th setup will not last too long at the 600whp mark.
*As well, I really hope that your clutch lasts as long as you hope it does, but keep in mind that it will be beneficial to your transmission to upgrade in the future to a twin-disk; it will also have a better capability of holding your higher horsepower/torque on this new setup, and on future setups.

Recap of stuff can be found at:
*See Post Numbers: 20, 22, 125, 130, 140, 145, 148 to further review this information.

Turbo recap stuff:
*See Posts: Post your PTE 6152e DYNO and 1/4 E.T. #'s
Post your PTE 6152e DYNO and 1/4 E.T. #'s

[Slippi84]

Originally Posted by twicks69

Well, I have gone through MANY setups over the last 6 years, trying as many combinations as possible to find the most streetable/highest HP/TQ setup and I only try to help people with the knowledge I have gotten from doing all this "trial and error" to save you all a ton of money and alot of time wasted. I would in no way want to blow smoke up any of your asses because it is not fair. In all actuality, I have already done this setup on my car about 4 years ago, with the only difference being the cams -- I was running 264/272's and then 272/272's prior to the change over from a 2.0L to my built 2.3L motor.

When working on a car utilizing a stock port 2G cylinder head and a mitsubishi flanged turbo, it is a good combination up to around 450-500whp. It is a great street setup that can make excellent mid-range power. You will not maximize the top-end potential of the turbo on this setup though. Swapping to an UNPORTED 1G cylinder head is pretty darn cheap, and it doesn't need to be a "ported and polished" head. The downfall to changing over to the 1G head is minimal, but it does mean that you are sacrificing spoolup to obtain more top-end power. Next, a 1G intake manifold will outflow the crap out of a 2G intake manifold == period. You should be able to make 485-500whp on a 1G cylinder head setup.

The key issue now is that the cylinder head can flow more than the turbine housing on the turbo. Heck, if you ran the car at the track on a 2G head vs. the 1G head (just doing the swap and running a 1G intake manifold), your car may actually lose MPH because you lost a bit of midrange, and the turbo cannot perform in the new powerband freed up by the 1G head. To remedy this, I reccomended changing over to a T4 turbine housing and exhaust manifold in conjunction with an external wastegate. This will free up a ton of horsepower across the mid and upper rpm range, letting you to have a powerband that shifts slightly to the right, but allows you to make alot more horsepower through the 5000-8000rpm range.

The next restriction would be the intake manifold. Sure, you could probably use a 1G intake manifold still, but it will be a major restriction. In Jkimes' place, he has said numerous times that he will be trying out the Magnus SMIM on his setup. This will do just fine on this turbo. With the proper fuel system (minimum requirement being 880-1000cc fuel injectors with a walboro 255HP fuel pump and -6AN lines), the car can make over 600-650whp.

After this level, it becomes a little harder to find easy, cheap power.

To review:

Existing setup:
*2.4L with a Crower/Wiseco 9.0:1 setup
*Mitsu-flanged SCM6176SP (0.63 A.R mitsu)
*Mitsu 2G ported exhaust manifold
*Tubular O2 housing
*3" Exhaust
*Internal wastegate
*2G unported cylinder head
*1G throttle body (or are you still running a 2G throttle body?)
*2G-flanged intake manifold (Jkimes, was your Magnus SMIM on for dyno'ing, and is it a 1G or 2G flange?)
*FP3 cams with FP dual springs/retainers
*880cc injectors with a well built fuel setup -- the only thing you would need to change for higher HP on a bigger turbo will be your fuel injectors -- 1000cc injectors would be a requirement then.
*Big FMIC with 3" IC pipes.
*DSMLink with Wideband controller (Innovate LC-1)
*Shep Stage 1 transmission (essentially a stock rebuild)
*SBR4000 clutch and a Fidanza Flywheel
*Prothane Motor-Mount inserts

Proposed changes:
*PTE SC6176SP with a 0.68 or 0.81 A/R T4 undivided turbine housing with a V-Band dischar