Holset Turbos, PART 3 - Page 8

aero_sallee · 02-08-2008, 03:37 PM

ceedawg · 02-08-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

No. The super40 has 7 blades. Those compressor wheels have 6 blades.

All this talk of the 6 blade flowing more than the 7 blade is apparently untrue. The 7 blade is the super40.

Well how do you come to that conclusion when HTT is saying the 6blade wheel is the actual upgrade?

ceedawg · 02-08-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Considering . . .

1. The smaller 54mm 8 blade hx35 has delivered 500whp
2. The 8blade hx35 blade shapes are identical to the hx40 8 blade but the hx40 8blade has 4mm more inducer diameter!
3. You have a larger hx40 turbine to work with

. . . I plan on running the wh1e as is, also. I also want to run the 8blade hx40/h1e/wh1e on the hx35 turbine with a larger turbine housing.
. .

This sounds like the turbo you had encouraged me to sell,but with the bep hsing. Basically my HX40/35 hyb with the BEP HSING. What chgd your mind?

dsm-onster · 02-08-2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Well how do you come to that conclusion when HTT is saying the 6blade wheel is the actual upgrade?

The 6 blade IS an upgrade to the 8 blade hx40 and the hx35 compressors. The 7 blade is the super40 compressor. . .

Quote:

This sounds like the turbo you had encouraged me to sell,but with the bep hsing. Basically my HX40/35 hyb with the BEP HSING. What chgd your mind?

Discovering that the 8blade hx35 compressor and 8 blade hx40 compressor have identical designs except the hx40 has a 4mm larger inducer changed my mind. . . The little hx40 map confused me royal. The hx35 turbine with the .55 a/r housing is likely not enough for the hx40. The turbine is already out of the 10% diameter rule of thumb. And the bep housing is much smaller than the housings designed for the hx35 turbine.

JWoodley · 02-08-2008, 07:03 PM

I should have some numbers on an HX40 6 blade within the next few months. Turbo is coming in next week.

I'm going with FIC 850s, DSMLink, FP Race Mani, and FP 4" intake. Shooting for a solid 400awhp on the 7 bolt.

Any recommendations?

ceedawg · 02-09-2008, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

The 6 blade IS an upgrade to the 8 blade hx40 and the hx35 compressors. The 7 blade is the super40 compressor. . .

I believe that they are saying the 6 & 7 blade would be an upgrade for both the 8 blade 35 and 40 wheels but I don't see where you figure the 7 blade flows more than the 6 blade is where I'm confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Discovering that the 8blade hx35 compressor and 8 blade hx40 compressor have identical designs except the hx40 has a 4mm larger inducer changed my mind. . . The little hx40 map confused me royal. The hx35 turbine with the .55 a/r housing is likely not enough for the hx40. The turbine is already out of the 10% diameter rule of thumb. And the bep housing is much smaller than the housings designed for the hx35 turbine.

Basically the only flaw with the hybrid other than the 10% rule is just the BEP turbine hsing according to what you're saying?

Sweet97 claims he was still running high 11's with the BEP hsing on his hybrid,so based on your conclusion are we saying that his car would have run better with a bigger Turbine hsing? If so then this turbo was not so bad after all as you previousy claimed. Just was not putting out the 65+lbs as was quoted with this turbine hsing.

gixrman · 02-09-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWoodley

I should have some numbers on an HX40 6 blade within the next few months. Turbo is coming in next week.

I'm going with FIC 850s, DSMLink, FP Race Mani, and FP 4" intake. Shooting for a solid 400awhp on the 7 bolt.

Any recommendations?

I would go with FIC 1000 inj. over 850's. Also are you running a Bullseye housing? The FP manifold is only flanged for Mitsu's. and will only work for internally gated housings or one of there own setups, that manifold does'nt have a WG port. Also why such a low HP? That turbos good for way more.

dsm-onster · 02-09-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceedawg

I believe that they are saying the 6 & 7 blade would be an upgrade for both the 8 blade 35 and 40 wheels but I don't see where you figure the 7 blade flows more than the 6 blade is where I'm confused.

Basically the only flaw with the hybrid other than the 10% rule is just the BEP turbine hsing according to what you're saying?

Sweet97 claims he was still running high 11's with the BEP hsing on his hybrid,so based on your conclusion are we saying that his car would have run better with a bigger Turbine hsing? If so then this turbo was not so bad after all as you previousy claimed. Just was not putting out the 65+lbs as was quoted with this turbine hsing.

The 7 blade is the super40. The holset-confirmed super40 map is the highest flowing hx40 map. So yes, the 7 blade flows more. Unless you find a larger map. 60mm is 2 mm larger than the h1e/hx40 8 blade compressor. Not THAT much larger. The 8 blade appears to flow 57 lbs/min. In the previous pages, I have posted a super40 map published by holset. There is 10-15 lbs/min difference between the super40 and the h1e map! The super 40 flows 67-68 lbs/min. I have no direct comparison of the 7 blade super40 and the 6 blade. Nor do I have measurements of the super40 inducer/exducer.

Oh yes, I think if he were running a bigger turbine wheel or bigger turbine housing he would have gotten more out of that compressor. It's a 58mm compressor wheel. It has the same inducer and exducer diameter as a gt3782 with MWE and more blades (higher efficiency). It should perform similarly. Given the proper turbine. Like I said, the small hx40 map really dupped me. I should have known better

. We should give the 8 blade a shot at least, right? I covered my a$$

.

Here's more speculation . . . Interestingly, the second highest flowing map we have flows *around* 60-61 lbs/min. Could this be the 60mm map? 2 mm difference inducer could dfinately yield that kind of difference in flow. Which is significant! up to 5 lbs/min difference is substancial. And is definately an upgrade to the 8 blade.

dsm-onster · 02-09-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gixrman

I would go with FIC 1000 inj. over 850's. Also are you running a Bullseye housing? The FP manifold is only flanged for Mitsu's. and will only work for internally gated housings or one of there own setups, that manifold does'nt have a WG port. Also why such a low HP? That turbos good for way more.

Likely, because he's running a stock 7 bolt. I bet he could do this with pumpgas.

JWoodley · 02-09-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Likely, because he's running a stock 7 bolt. I bet he could do this with pumpgas.

Correct. Thats what I'm shooting for. Aside from ARPs, the motor is stock. I am running the Holset with the BEP housing and internal gate.

Fuel wise I have a Walbro 255HP, Aeromotive AFPR, and I'll have DSMLink and injectors upon installation. 850s should be plenty enough to support my goals ~400-430awhp.

I'm debating getting logs with a ported 2G exhaust manifold then switching to the FP manifold for comparison.

I'll be running this setup on the stock 7 bolt until I finish my stroker project. Oddly enough I'm not in a hurry with the stroker. I'd like to put down some good numbers on the 7 bolt, make a few passes with it, then knock the boost down a tad and drive it around.

dsm-onster · 02-09-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aero_sallee

Keep plugging away. It looks to be a fun project!

drewvr4 · 02-09-2008, 03:45 PM

Went to the dyno today 417hp and 398 ftlbs at 27psi. Mods are in profile, I had about 5 counts of knock and I didn't let off because mainly I don't care if the motor blows. It was running about 10.7:1 afr with moderate amount of timing. So I honestly think at that boost level I need to put some 110 in to make the knock go away

Dyno sheet flew out the top of the convertable on the way home or I would post it.

ceedawg · 02-09-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

The 7 blade is the super40. The holset-confirmed super40 map is the highest flowing hx40 map. So yes, the 7 blade flows more. Unless you find a larger map. 60mm is 2 mm larger than the h1e/hx40 8 blade compressor. Not THAT much larger. The 8 blade appears to flow 57 lbs/min. In the previous pages, I have posted a super40 map published by holset. There is 10-15 lbs/min difference between the super40 and the h1e map! The super 40 flows 67-68 lbs/min. I have no direct comparison of the 7 blade super40 and the 6 blade. Nor do I have measurements of the super40 inducer/exducer.

Oh yes, I think if he were running a bigger turbine wheel or bigger turbine housing he would have gotten more out of that compressor. It's a 58mm compressor wheel. It has the same inducer and exducer diameter as a gt3782 with MWE and more blades (higher efficiency). It should perform similarly. Given the proper turbine. Like I said, the small hx40 map really dupped me. I should have known better

. We should give the 8 blade a shot at least, right? I covered my a$$

.

Here's more speculation . . . Interestingly, the second highest flowing map we have flows *around* 60-61 lbs/min. Could this be the 60mm map? 2 mm difference inducer could dfinately yield that kind of difference in flow. Which is significant! up to 5 lbs/min difference is substancial. And is definately an upgrade to the 8 blade.

Your speculations tend to have me spending $$ all over the place!

I perhaps would have just kept my hybrid and not bought the HX40 6 blade. But I have it now and intend on using it. The HX40 I have is brandnew and not used like the other one (someone recommended

) which was bought from ebay. Got rid of that thing and got my$$ back thank God.

Now you're telling me the 7 blade Holset flows more than the 6 blade but possibly by 5lbs?

Dude you're killin me!!

Never the less I'm learning.

Anyway,here is some interestng info about the turbine hsings I thought I'd post.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After doing a bit more research and speaking with engineers everyone has come up with the 12cm being between a .58 and a .060.... The people I have spoke to knew a good bit about these turbos and I definately believe what they have to say and why they thought that.

That being said it is also a common conclusion that the 14cm is in the .67 to .70 and the 16cm is a .76 to .80...

With the amount of upgrades one can make to the hx35 it is my conclusion that the next logical housing for me to try on my car is the 16cm. I went ahead and a bought a new one as I couldn't find any used ones. The plan is to have it ported just like my 12cm is and then have it ceramic coated. Hoping to have it on the dyno shortly after but without having the car be done at the body shop it makes it hard to say when.

Thats it for the update on pretty solid info.

12cm--.58-.60
14cm--.67-.70
16cm--.77-.80
Best numbers I could get out of anyone hope that helps.

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Makes me think I'll replace this custom 14cm^2 HX40 turbine hsing with a twin scroll 16cm^2,even though my HX40 should spool like a monster in the 14cm^2 housing. Just don't want the thing to choke uptop.
Any other thoughts about this?

ceedawg · 02-09-2008, 06:12 PM

And this as a supplementary to my last post:

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If I may offer a few comments regarding the use of twin scroll (TS) componentry in a largely single scroll world . . .

- I recently upgraded from a regular .63 A/R T3 with a GT35R to a PT67 BB with a .70 A/R TS T4. Despite the fact that the T4 housing makes the T3 look like a toy, the response of the TS configuration of the T4 makes an open T3 feel like mud. Despite the fact that a larger turbo is used, it gives superior transient response due to the TS.

- The biggest realization when using a TS housing is that if you chose it using open housing A/R figures as a guideline, you chose too small. I know for a fact that a 1.06 A/R TS T3 spools faster than the same turbo with a .63 A/R open T3. When using TS, don't be shy about going large, because A/R figures don't correlate between open and TS housings when it comes to spool and power characteristics.

- A TS turbine housing requires a TS manifold. Fitting an open manifold to a TS housing is like putting a square peg in a round hole.

- A four cylinder engine benefits more so from a TS setup than anything else, primarily due to the latency period between pulses and blowdown isolation.

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Hsing comparison between BEP .55AR and modded Holset HX40 14cm^2 housing

The holset hsing dwarfs the BEP hsing! Notice how much of the compressor hsing you can see in the background when comparing the two turbine hsings. The 14cm housing practically hides the comp hsing when looking at it.This hsing (14cm holset)should wrk very well on a HX35 or HX40/35 hybrid. However I'm thinking of going to a 18cm or 16 cm

GORBS88 · 02-09-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewvr4

Went to the dyno today 417hp and 398 ftlbs at 27psi. Mods are in profile, I had about 5 counts of knock and I didn't let off because mainly I don't care if the motor blows. It was running about 10.7:1 afr with moderate amount of timing. So I honestly think at that boost level I need to put some 110 in to make the knock go away

Dyno sheet flew out the top of the convertable on the way home or I would post it.

Good job.

Glad to see that we finally have some real world numbers from the hx-35. Now i have an idea of what i was making on that turbo.
What kind of timing were you running? Where you running any kind of W/I?

gixrman · 02-09-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWoodley

Correct. Thats what I'm shooting for. Aside from ARPs, the motor is stock. I am running the Holset with the BEP housing and internal gate.

Fuel wise I have a Walbro 255HP, Aeromotive AFPR, and I'll have DSMLink and injectors upon installation. 850s should be plenty enough to support my goals ~400-430awhp.

I'm debating getting logs with a ported 2G exhaust manifold then switching to the FP manifold for comparison.

I'll be running this setup on the stock 7 bolt until I finish my stroker project. Oddly enough I'm not in a hurry with the stroker. I'd like to put down some good numbers on the 7 bolt, make a few passes with it, then knock the boost down a tad and drive it around.

I only say that because I over ran my 650's on my e16g at 25psi and switched up to 1000's in anticipaction of my H1E. And that was on pump gas with W/I.