Holset Turbos, PART 3

[ceedawg]

Oh and here is the HX40 with ported, bored TS holset 14cm hsing vs the HX40/35 hybrid with the puny BEP hsing that I sold :

[gixrman]

Finally got my manifold welded up today. Have to finish the WG pipes I was so happy I had a design that fit I slapped it on! But then I noticed its hitting the upper rad hose. Not bad for my first manifold. Hopefully all this hard work will payoff with some quick spool.

[IPT]

Swap in a 1G radiator and all will be good. I had to do that on my Divided T4 manifold.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by Spidey

they're just very restrictive, even the ".70" a/r BEP housings.

The BEP .70 a/r housings have made 700whp with some S300 turbos. IT is much bigger than the .55 a/r bolt on housings they have.

[Steve93Talon]

Originally Posted by IPT

The BEP .70 a/r housings have made 700whp with some S300 turbos. IT is much bigger than the .55 a/r bolt on housings they have.

I was gonna say, the .70 T3 is anything but restrictive. It's at least as big as a .82 T3 Garrett housing.

[gixrman]

Originally Posted by IPT

Swap in a 1G radiator and all will be good. I had to do that on my Divided T4 manifold.

Really, is the outlet farther to the left? Thanks!

[IPT]

Originally Posted by gixrman

Really, is the outlet farther to the left? Thanks!

Yeap.

[dsm-onster]

Holy he!! that bep .70 a/r is a big turbine housing!

Gixrman, that look good. Are the runners equal length? The don't appear to be. Not that it matters much.

Originally Posted by Spidey

My housing is a twin scroll one, but it bolts to the center section. I like it a lot, I honestly would not go with a bolt-on housing with anything larger than a 16g(if considering a 20g, there are better Garrett alternatives IMO), they're just very restrictive, even the ".70" a/r BEP housings.

You have at least a 12cm^2 housing then. Not 9c^2.

A .48 a/r garrett turbine housing with a gt30r turbine flows WAY more than a .63 a/r t3 stage1 turbine. Turbine housings are not independently restrictive. They influence the power band. They must be coupled to turbine wheel to compare flow potential and determine if the whole turbine side is restrictive to the compressor. Apparently (based on several dyno graphs) the hx35 turbine wheel in the small bep housing flows plenty well for the edge of the hx35 compressor map. 480-500whp has been achieved more than once.

Ceedawg, yea, mine actually states 18.5 cm on the housing. I've been just referring to it as an 18cm housing. And excuse my airheadedness. I have my t3 garrett, my 16g and my 18cm holset housing on my desk. And I didn't realize I was comparing the .63 t3 housing to the 18cm holset. The t3 .63 housing actually seams to have a larger volute than each of the single volutes of the 18cm holset housing. The MHI 7cm housing is still the smallest around here .

Do you guys see what I'm saying about volute size with a twin scroll turbine? Look at the volutes individually to better guage spool potential. Exhaust gasses enter the turbine housing in pulses. Using holset housings. . . Each pulse "sees" the 9cm^2 volute of the undivided 9cm^2 hy35 turbine housing. Each pulse sees HALF of the 12cm^2 total of the divided 12cm^2 turbine housing. But with a twinscroll, the pulses have twice as long to get through the turbine if the exhaust runners are divided properly. The exhaust gases can hit the turbine blades at a more aggresive angle because of the smaller individual volutes yielding more work done earlier-- or quicker spool--, and still have plenty of time to evacuate before the next pulse which yields more flow since the time neccesary to flow a certain mass has increased. The individual volutes can be nearly the same size as a non-divided housing volute, spool quicker, and flow at least the same. Size not being important , the quicker spool at the same or better flow is the goal of a ts housing.

Add the fact that the cylinders see much less to zero pressure from another exhaust pulse because of the runners being divided as they are, and you get much better cylinder evacuation/filling, which means more VE. Higher VE earlier in the rev range also increases spool speed. Higher VE up top yields better peak hp. So the better exhaust gas angle without a loss in flow, plus the better VE greatly increases spool AND flow.

But there is nothing wrong with the bep housings. They are physically much smaller which is better for clearance issues with manifolds that put the turbo in the stock location. And they flow plenty with each turbine wheel for their matching compressor wheel, while still spooling GREAT! They cannot be as efficient as TS housings. But the .55 bolts on. And the .70 is better than running a divided holset housing with an undivided exhaust manifold. And you get a more convenient o2housing bolt pattern with both.

[Spidey]

So wait, thats the .70a/r T3 housing on the right up there? I'll retract my statement, if so. I must have seen a picture of the wrong housing when looking previously, as it looked like the standard BEP housing on the left.

[dsm-onster]

Well, I have some logs. But I can't copy from my floppy to my online pc. Because of "java.io.IOException: Data error (cyclic redudancy check)". !

Looking at the log on my other pc, I logged 31.5 lbs/min and 2200-2300hz up to 5200rpms. After that, the 1g maf went nuts (maf overrun). At 5200rpms with the small 16g, I was seeing 28.6 lbs/min and 1915hz. Both of these were done at 20psi. . . Well, the small 16g spikes a little at 5200rpms to 22psi. The h1c flows quite a bit more at lower boost with nearly the same spool as an evo3 16g.

I'll try again to recopy the files to the floppy. . .

[dsmconvict]

Originally Posted by Spidey

So wait, thats the .70a/r T3 housing on the right up there? I'll retract my statement, if so. I must have seen a picture of the wrong housing when looking previously, as it looked like the standard BEP housing on the left.

If I'm not mistaken BEP also made a .55a/r t3 housing too. Thats what you may have seen.

[IPT]

Originally Posted by dsmconvict

If I'm not mistaken BEP also made a .55a/r t3 housing too. Thats what you may have seen.

They USED to make that T3 inlet .55 there are no more left.

[dsm-onster]

Wow. I just blew my headgasket. . .

There's a miss and when I pull the number 1 fuel injector pigtail, the idle doesn't change I guess it's better than holing a piston. I pushed it a little. And I shouldn't have with the 1g maf. The lm-1 read lean WAY too fast for me to get out of her in time. Just a small amount of knock was actually recorded.

This turbo flows WAY more than any 16g at 20 psi. And spools quick enough to deliver tht familiar uncontrollable torquesteer but at only 3000-3500rpms in 4th gear. This is when my headgasket started leaking. The 16g hits harder. Or better to say: the spool isn't linear. It starts spooling later but rushes to 20 psi between 2500rpm and 3K. The h1c start spooling showing positive pressure at 2K an smoothly rises to 20+ psi by 3300rpms. I took the bait and pushed it a little too hard. I didn't really think there would be that much flow difference at 20 psi. About 15 rednecks were throwing their fists and cheering when I got into her pulling from the beachfront (no traffic or intersections). Most were my neighbors, who new what I had in her ("not much" to them ). I've been running the small 16g all day long at 20psi with the hacked 1g maf. I'm an idoit. There goes $50 and 2hours of my time . But the 2g maf will cure this.

I still can't deliver any good logs. It seams that the windows98 on my in car pc (not a lap top) is corrupting my floppy drives to the windowsxp my online pc is using. I can format floppies with my online pc and look at the empty contents. Then open each floppy with the pc in the car and download the files to those floppies. But, when I put any of those floppies into the online pc, the disk appears unformatted so I can't upload the logs to my online pc.

Nevertheless. The 16g wasnt maxed out and flowed 300hz less in volume flow than the h1c at 2 less psi. That's about 4 lbs/min difference to me, if the boost were the same. It appears that any td05h 7cm^2 turbo will flow that much less at 20psi with 272s and stock everything but a 3" exhaust and a 3" intake and medium-sized ebay FMIC. A headgasket swap, the 2g maf, and my online pc put in the car should show some more.

The h1c is fun and feels like a 50-trim.

[GORBS88]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Wow. I just blew my headgasket. . .

There's a miss and when I pull the number 1 fuel injector pigtail, the idle doesn't change I guess it's better than holing a piston. I pushed it a little. And I shouldn't have with the 1g maf. The lm-1 read lean WAY too fast for me to get out of her in time. Just a small amount of knock was actually recorded.

This turbo flows WAY more than any 16g at 20 psi. And spools quick enough to deliver tht familiar uncontrollable torquesteer but at only 3000-3500rpms in 4th gear. This is when my headgasket started leaking. The 16g hits harder. Or better to say: the spool isn't linear. It starts spooling later but rushes to 20 psi between 2500rpm and 3K. The h1c start spooling showing positive pressure at 2K an smoothly rises to 20+ psi by 3300rpms. I took the bait and pushed it a little too hard. I didn't really think there would be that much flow difference at 20 psi. About 15 rednecks were throwing their fists and cheering when I got into her pulling from the beachfront (no traffic or intersections). Most were my neighbors, who new what I had in her ("not much" to them ). I've been running the small 16g all day long at 20psi with the hacked 1g maf. I'm an idoit. There goes $50 and 2hours of my time . But the 2g maf will cure this.

I still can't deliver any good logs. It seams that the windows98 on my in car pc (not a lap top) is corrupting my floppy drives to the windowsxp my online pc is using. I can format floppies with my online pc and look at the empty contents. Then open each floppy with the pc in the car and download the files to those floppies. But, when I put any of those floppies into the online pc, the disk appears unformatted so I can't upload the logs to my online pc.

Nevertheless. The 16g wasnt maxed out and flowed 300hz less in volume flow than the h1c at 2 less psi. That's about 4 lbs/min difference to me, if the boost were the same. It appears that any td05h 7cm^2 turbo will flow that much less at 20psi with 272s and stock everything but a 3" exhaust and a 3" intake and medium-sized ebay FMIC. A headgasket swap, the 2g maf, and my online pc put in the car should show some more.

The h1c is fun and feels like a 50-trim.

What are you using to tune?

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

I didn't realize I was comparing the .63 t3 housing to the 18cm holset. The t3 .63 housing actually seams to have a larger volute than each of the single volutes of the 18cm holset housing. The MHI 7cm housing is still the smallest around here

Are we talking about the two volutes in the 18.5 cm housing combined?

If you were to eliminate the divider portion in the 18.5cm housing would it look bigger inside,volute wise than the T3 .63 single opened housing? If not then it looks like I'll have to find an HX50 or a 22cm holset divided turbine hsing. The 18.5cm Holset maybe = in size to a Garrett A/R .78 ,.83 or even smaller if that's the case.

I would love to get my hands on a TS T3 A/R .83 divided housing and compare it to this 18.5 cm holset hsing.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by GORBS88

What are you using to tune?

DSMlink . I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have pushed it. I'd have done better at least enabling fake maf.

Originally Posted by Ceedawg

Are we talking about the two volutes in the 18.5 cm housing combined?

Not at all. Remember. I'm contesting that since the exhaust is delivered in pulses, then pulse timing comes into play. A pulse that has twice as much time to push through a turbine wheel needs a smaller individual volute to flow well.

[gixrman]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

Gixrman, that look good. Are the runners equal length? The don't appear to be. Not that it matters much.

No I tried too, several times. I did read that its not as critical on a turbo manifold so I gave up.

[ceedawg]