Just ordered up the last part of the puzzle, some 1200cc RC injectors. This weekend I will be throughing them in and installing my wbo2. Then some fun e85 tuning. Here is the main parts in my setup
Stock 2.0 Rebuilt Longblock w/2g pistons
Evo16g
255lph FP, 1200cc injectors, MAF-T
Full built tranny so ready for the track
I dont have timing control but hopefully wont be an issue. We will be pegging the 30psi boost guage and hopefully make some good power. The week or two after I will have some dyno numbers. Hopefully make 380-400+whp on a stock longblock but we will see. Also the track opens at the end of the month and should have some track numbers soon too!
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Once these injectors come in I'm going to start tuning. Never tuned a full e85 setup yet, my buddy had done most of it and ive worked off of his tune.
This is how I was going to start off once I filled her up with alcohol. First change the global to the injectors size. Then I was thinking I would take 20% off the global for the e85. From what Ive experienced it can be up too a 20% change just in crusing situations so that should get be close to a good AFR right??
Finally after all this time and talking about it your finally ready to try it.
To bad I dont have the opportunity of running e85.
Anyways, you shouldnt need a 2nd fuel pump for a 16g. Id just consider upgrading some of the lines and fuel filter
down the road, but you probably dont even need to do that.
So how will the RC 1200s affect your timing maps on a SAFC?
Remember only so much timing is good, it possibly could leave you stuck in the upper gm/rev load rows in the ecu were it could be giving you like 28 + degs of timing under WOT.
If so, you might want to limit your boost until you CAN control timing. By limiting boost I mean
possibly no more than 19-20psi max. That much timing itself will dramatically raise cylinder pressure.
So since your shooting for 30psi, I also must ask, you do have ARP headstuds and possibly a better than stock H.G. right? Just covering the basics.
Even if you didnt raise your boost any more from your current boost level, just running the e85 and getting the advanced timing from those injectors while tuning AFR, should make the car much quicker.
I dont know about tuning with just a MAFT with that size injectors. They will be like having 816cc injectors on gas at lower throttle settings. At high throttle you'll want to lean a lot more than that. When I had 680cc's and just an AFC, I had low throttle at 0% and high throttle at like -20% or something. To get it to work decent I had to set the high throttle point to only like 40% throttle. The stock fuel maps are like 9.3:1 or so, and you'll want to run between 11 and 12:1 (11.5:1 gas = 7.64:1 E85; 12:1 gas = 8:1 E85).
No you won't need a 2nd fuel pump no matter how much boost you run your 16G at. A walbro 255 HP and 750cc injectors are good for over 400whp on e85. Your larger injectors shouldn't make that worse, unless you run insanely rich. I actually ran the stock fuel pump for a while in my 1G at 20psi boost (14B) w/ 680's and it worked fine.
With the right tuning on E85, you'll never want to use gasoline again. Good luck
Remember I still have the CAS. I know its old school but when I first owned a dsm thats the only timing control we had for the 1g. Ive seen people run 1000's on an safc and make tons of power but always on race gas. This was before the dsmlink days.
I hope I wont have to much issues with the timing and keep it under control. If not then I will have to get an eprom with a flash. My buddy along time ago ran 25psi, 1000cc injectors and just the maf-t 1.3v on pump with the timing pulled back only with the CAS. I dont remember the turbo but it was a t3/t4 of some kind. Also remember the 1200cc's at 37psi stock fuel pressure actually rates them lower so that helps a little.
Anyways we will see what happens.
Ohh and fuel lines will be upgraded within the next month.
I would get an eprom ECU (if yours isn't) and a chip burner instead of messing around with the fuel lines. The stock lines and filter work no problem with E85. The eprom is almost a necessity, and the fuel lines won't help you at all until you go with a much bigger turbo. For how cheap a chip burner is ($85), I don't see why everyone with a DSM doesn't have one. It's actually easier to tune with than a piggyback anyways. Set the injector size compensation and your close right off the bat.
If you start getting a little lean on boost, you probably just need a new fuel filter -- E85 cleans the tank and lines out so all the crap will end up in the filter. I have actually never changed the filter on my 98 GSX since I got it like 2.5 years or so ago and it's still working great. It seems like everyone who hasn't used E85 themselves thinks you absolutely require 1000-1600cc injectors, huge lines, and maybe even 2 pumps but thats not really the case.
Jay, If i was you, I would start off Alil bit softer on the E85.
Start with A 50/50 mix and go from there. Unless you are almost spot on with your fuel adjustments. You "might" run into major lean issues...
Its Always better to start small and work your way up. We all know you dont want a siezed engine. due to guess work on the Fuel trims...
Shure it takes longer to dial in a Pure E85 Tune. But ask yourself whats cheaper. 2 weeks of time having fun and learing the tune for E85. or a blown motor?
Anyways, Good Luck on that Tune. and post some logs Asap. as you get them.
Im going to replace the fuel filter to rail and thats only about $125 so that wont be much. With my setup Im hoping to have timing below 25* by redline. The main issue is the timing in the lower rpms that will kill me when boost hits. But if the e85 does its job I should be ok.
If not eprom or maybe even emanage since its so cheap now. I may even take 30% off of the injector compensation with the maf-t just to be safe and lean it out from there. First I will get my low afr's in line and fuel trims before going WOT. Anyways wish me luck! Thanks for the comments.
Like i was saying, i think you should not try for that 30psi you were talking about.
With the kind of timing you will likely get, 20psi should suffice.
Eprom chip is a good idea, hell burning your own chips for free after buying the chip burner and downloading the program and making tuning adjustments to the chip whenever you feel like it is even better GL
I was looking at some calculations and let me know what you guys think and if its correct. The RC 1200cc injectors are rated at 43.5psi and im planning on running 37psi FP. Now this rates the injectors at 1105cc's according to a calculation I found.
Now when I do the injector compensation formula (450/1100-1.0=.59 or -59%) I get a 59% correction. Take 30% off of that for the difference in E85 to start with and thats -29%. Now I think I will have to lean it out a bit but I dont think timing will be an issue since I wont have that much of a huge global correction. Thats the correction for 650's.
Right now Im running 16psi. Injector compensation is at -30% because Im running 550cc injectors with a n/a fpr and at that fp they are acting like 650cc's. Timing is at max 17* with the CAS at 2* base. I get about 5 counts of knock when boost hits at 3200rpm due to timing being at about 22* untill the ecu gets some airflow and starts to drop. Which is why I want e85 so bad because I cant get more than 15-18psi without knock due to timing and the 2g pistons.
With my calculations I think the timing will be fine and I will hit my mark on the boost if the e85 will allow it. Plus with the 16g boosting that hard it should drop a little timing due to airflow but it doesnt push much air. Let me know what you guys think.
that 16g can push a lot of air, why are you doing so much calculating? if you do everything
right you sould make about 400hp at 20-24psi with your set up on e85.
I was looking at some calculations and let me know what you guys think and if its correct. The RC 1200cc injectors are rated at 43.5psi and im planning on running 37psi FP. Now this rates the injectors at 1105cc's according to a calculation I found.
Now when I do the injector compensation formula (450/1100-1.0=.59 or -59%) I get a 59% correction. Take 30% off of that for the difference in E85 to start with and thats -29%. Now I think I will have to lean it out a bit but I dont think timing will be an issue since I wont have that much of a huge global correction. Thats the correction for 650's.
Right now Im running 16psi. Injector compensation is at -30% because Im running 550cc injectors with a n/a fpr and at that fp they are acting like 650cc's. Timing is at max 17* with the CAS at 2* base. I get about 5 counts of knock when boost hits at 3200rpm due to timing being at about 22* untill the ecu gets some airflow and starts to drop. Which is why I want e85 so bad because I cant get more than 15-18psi without knock due to timing and the 2g pistons.
With my calculations I think the timing will be fine and I will hit my mark on the boost if the e85 will allow it. Plus with the 16g boosting that hard it should drop a little timing due to airflow but it doesnt push much air. Let me know what you guys think.
The Global Fuel Calculation is wrong.
1G Base Fuel Pressure is 37 PSI. The ECU will always assume 37 PSI, so you do not use 1100cc in the compensation formula, even though that is what they will actually flow at 37 PSI. Instead use the 1200 figure in the calculation.
ALSO... You do not take -20% (not 30% from my experience) off the top of the global percentage. Take the -20% off of the injector flow instead.
1200 * .80 = 960cc
(450/960) - 1 = -53% Compensation
http://www.jeffgst.com/id20.html
Maximum timing for a 1G is 22 degrees at 6000 RPM as long as you are in the highest airflow timing map. Retarding the timing to 2 degrees BTDC will give you 19 degrees of peak timing throughout WOT tuning. This is an decent bandaid technique that will work OK until you get some decent engine management.
Thanks for the info. I think I may start with 25% off for the e85 just to stay safe on the afr. I would rather be to rich than lean on my first run anyways.
Quote:
Maximum timing for a 1G is 22 degrees at 6000 RPM as long as you are in the highest airflow timing map. Retarding the timing to 2 degrees BTDC will give you 19 degrees of peak timing throughout WOT tuning. This is an decent bandaid technique that will work OK until you get some decent engine management.
So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*. In my experience Ive seen over 22* on the logger with 550's but its hard to trust a logger. I will do -50% on the first start up and then get my fuel trims inline, I want the global to be closest as possible so trims are good. I just cant wait to have 20+psi again. Havnt been able to run that much since I went with 2g pistons, the 1g timing map hates the higher compression.
Thanks for the info. I think I may start with 25% off for the e85 just to stay safe on the afr. I would rather be to rich than lean on my first run anyways.
So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*. In my experience Ive seen over 22* on the logger with 550's but its hard to trust a logger. I will do -50% on the first start up and then get my fuel trims inline, I want the global to be closest as possible so trims are good. I just cant wait to have 20+psi again. Havnt been able to run that much since I went with 2g pistons, the 1g timing map hates the higher compression.
Do you plan to track/ dyno so you can measure your results of switching e85?
So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*
Not true. "Never" is a strong word. Did you read the link I posted of my Timing Page on my website?
As long as you are on the highest airflow timing map (10+PSI), then you will not see more than 22 degrees at WOT. The problem is that you will be taking away -50% of the airflow away from the ECU, so you may or may not be on the highest timing map. E85 is very knock resistant anyways so you may benefit from the added timing.
Ohh I see that is true, I dont think it will be an issue. Ive never predynoed to e85 so I wont beable to tell the difference.
Maybe you should go spend the 15 dollars and run down the track real quick before you start running e85 and then go back after your fully tuned on the corn juice just to compare difference in E/T Trap etc.
GL
