Shifting problems..

[TalonJ]

I'm new to the forum and I can see how helpful some of the people are, so I figured i'd give this a shot .

Ok well I bought my 97, TSi AWD (70,000mi) just three days ago.
The only thing I noticed during my weekend of driving was sometimes having a little trouble shifting to first (while stopped) or downshift to certain gears. By trouble, I mean I just had to apply a little pressure.. I didn't think much of it, not a big deal to me. It does have 70,000 miles on it so I wasn't expecting the smoothest shift.
This morning I went out to start the car (warm-up) and immediately noticed a loud squealing belt noise which was only evident with the clutch depressed. It immediately stops when I press down on it. Now i'm thinking (ok, cold?)
FIfteen minutes later I come back outside, still making the noise. I got in and had a hell of a time trying to move the shifter into first... it just wouldn't go in, sometimes even heard a grind. (the best way I can describe it: it was like I was trying to shift without using the clutch at all) Using excessive force I got it to go in, none of the other gears seemed to be a problem, and this 1st gear thing persisted for the entire morning commute (only about 10 minutes) while stopped at stop signs it would take 5-10 seconds for me to get it into gear to move again (again using excessive force). After classes, (5 hours later) I was experiencing the same problems (belt noises and shifting, only it seemed a little worse).
Now one thing I have to note is I did drive it around for 20 minutes and it seems to be getting a little smoother getting into first, or at least less intermittent.
One more thing is after i've driven in reverse, it seems a bit of a pain getting it out of gear.

Sorry if it seems like something obvious, I haven't gotten into this car much at all but i'm hoping to.

P.S. Clutch was recently replaced (says the previous owner) It was traded in to my fathers dealership, so I bought the car for wholesale price.

P.S.S. The last thing I want to hear is "crankwalk" . But if this is an early symptom, please do tell.


Sorry for the novel guys, I just want to be as specific as possible.

Thanks for the help in advance.



Plex

 

[Bentcrank]

I also have the same issue on my 90 TSI. The only difference is that when driving my trans/clutch makes a loud flutter accompanied by a bad vibration in the shifter. The clutch holds though It happened after a full throttle run last week. Now its almost impossible to drive the ####er.

 

[The Foos]

Sounds like your clutch doesn't disengage to me. Pretty typical for a dsm. Over time and cycling, the clutch fork bends and warps, and you effectively lose travel.

To check this out, have a buddy pump the clutch pedal while you are under the car and take a look at the travel. If the fork looks like it hits the bellhousing before the clutch disengages, that is your problem, and you just need to shim out the fulcrum (easier said than done, it is a 50 cent fix that will take an expert 6 hrs to do )

The other things to do is to take the boot off the slave cylinder and see if there is any fluid in it. Also, look under the dash at the master cylinder to see if any fluid is seeping there. These are less likely problems, but easier to deal with.

Good luck

Scott

 

[Bentcrank]

Sounds like your clutch doesn't disengage to me. Pretty typical for a dsm. Over time and cycling, the clutch fork bends and warps, and you effectively lose travel.

To check this out, have a buddy pump the clutch pedal while you are under the car and take a look at the travel. If the fork looks like it hits the bellhousing before the clutch disengages, that is your problem, and you just need to shim out the fulcrum (easier said than done, it is a 50 cent fix that will take an expert 6 hrs to do )

The other things to do is to take the boot off the slave cylinder and see if there is any fluid in it. Also, look under the dash at the master cylinder to see if any fluid is seeping there. These are less likely problems, but easier to deal with.

Good luck

Scott

This was kinda my guess, but what aboot the noise? Could I have damnaged the input shaft of the trans or can bending the fork affect the TO bearing? Also can you just change out the fork easier then shiming it. I could answer most of these my self if I could at least get under the car without having to shovel out 2 ft of snow

 

[TalonJ]

Sounds like your clutch doesn't disengage to me. Pretty typical for a dsm. Over time and cycling, the clutch fork bends and warps, and you effectively lose travel.

To check this out, have a buddy pump the clutch pedal while you are under the car and take a look at the travel. If the fork looks like it hits the bellhousing before the clutch disengages, that is your problem, and you just need to shim out the fulcrum (easier said than done, it is a 50 cent fix that will take an expert 6 hrs to do )

The other things to do is to take the boot off the slave cylinder and see if there is any fluid in it. Also, look under the dash at the master cylinder to see if any fluid is seeping there. These are less likely problems, but easier to deal with.

Good luck

Scott

Thank you so much... I came back just now to add more to the diagnosis, which was going to begin with "I think my clutch isn't disengaging".

That's what I had thought all day... but couldn't really prove it. But I think I just did, it sat for a couple hours at my friends house and when I went out to drive home I couldn't get out of reverse (could be the clutch not disengaging) so I force it out... then it won't go into first again (which could also mean the clutch isn't disengaging) then i forced it into first and walla... the car moves.. its moving forward with idle... clutch pedal is the whole way to the floor. That's when I screamed shit and realized that i've been basically driving without a clutch =/... kinda hurt when I got home and had to parallel park with the grinding reverse. .

I kind of understand what your saying, and I'd like to do it myself (i'm no expert but i'm willing to spend more than six hours, rather than pay for 6 hours labor)... sorry to bother you again, but if you could describe more in detail where these things are and how to "shim the fulcrum", pictures if you have them.

And thanks again Scott, your a live saver.

Plex

 

[The Foos]

Either way, you have to take the trans out, which isn't much fun, even when you have a lift...Shimming it out is the easiest and cheapest solution, but it is a bandaid solution of sorts. The only true final solution is to get a beefy billet steel clutch fork. I think taboo speed shop makes one.

I would have to guess that your noise is the throwout bearing, since when you actuate the clutch, the noise goes away.

Scott

 

[TalonJ]

Thanks for the quick reply...
ouch ... dropping the tranny =(.


One more quick add-on question(still stumped with this one): What would cause this problem to be so intermittent? It works smoothly, then it doesn't, back and forth?

 

[The Foos]

Looks like we are posting at the same time

The fulcrum is the ball that the clutch fork pivots on. It is inside the bellhousing of the transmission, so you have to unbolt the trans from everything (axles, transfer case, engine), and at minimum, move the trans away from the engine so you can access the fulcrum.

It simply unscrews from inside the bellhousing, and you can put washers behind it and reinstall it.

To properly diagnosis this problem though, you need to do a few things. Get under the car and unbolt the slave cylinder from the trans. This makes it so you can manually move the clutch fork around. Also, take the clutch fork boot off. Then move the clutch fork as far left (looking from the front of the car) as you can. That pushes the fork against the throwout bearing/pressure plate. When you do this, the clutch fork should be about in the middle of the bellhousing window it sticks out through. If it isn't (if it is more toward the passenger side), shiming the fulcrum will most likely fix your problem.

Hope that helps.

Scott

 

[TalonJ]

Sorry to keep following up

By what your saying, I can access and move the fork from underneathe the car by removing the the slave cyl... so my question is: why can't I shim it from there?

 

[The Foos]

Sorry to keep following up

By what your saying, I can access and move the fork from underneathe the car by removing the the slave cyl... so my question is: why can't I shim it from there?

Yep, you could try to shim it from that window, but it is nearly impossible. You can get a wrench on the fulcrum from it, but you don't really have room to turn it. You will have to have multiple open ended wrenches at different bend angles (straight, 15, 45, 60 degrees, etc). I won't say it can't be done, but you need a collection of speciality wrenches to get it done. I had that collection handy, but it was too much of a pain, and I decided to drop the trans again (I've learned about this stuff the hard way )

Scott

 

[TalonJ]

Damn I wished you lived closer.
You know of any pictures or how-to's for this? I tried googling it without success.

Plex

 

[The Foos]

Check out the slave cylinder replacement on this site. The pics aren't all that great and they are taken from a weird angle.

http://www.vfaq.com/index-main.html

Also, here is a "how-to" to give you a run down to fix most of your shifting problems, even if it's not your clutch fork being bent...

http://www.teamrip.com/clutch adjustment.html

If this stuff doesn't help much, I will try to get you a couple good pics this weekend.

Scott

 

[TalonJ]

Yeah, totally different language for me .

I'm going to try and see what I can do. Unfortunately the guys at the dealership I work at don't know much about the DSMs at all, (Cad. Buick, Pontiac) haha.
I'm going over someones house today and he's going to check it out... hopefully I won't need to drop the tranny.


Thanks,

Plex

 

[jb95gst]

Ok, I was wondering if the bent fork could be the same thing I am having trouble with.
This is my origonal post http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167534
Now last night I was driving home and when I went to stop at a stop sign I pressed the clutch peadal in and it didn't feel right, it seemed to have lost pressure and felt like it was hitting something and would not travel all the way to the floor. I had to force it out of gear, then I was unable to get it back in gear. I ended up having to shut the car off, put it in first and then start the car in gear. I then drove the 4 remaining miles home in first.
This morning I went out to look at it before I had to work and when I started the car it made a screaching noise when I press the clutch pedal. Also since this happened last night while driving it home in first my TOB was chirping pretty loud.
My thoughts were just that the TOB may have came off/loose or that the fork may be bent.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought the problems were similar.
Any information would be helpful, I think I am going to try to pull the tranny tomorrow to check it out.

Thanks, JB

 

[The Foos]

Hey jb95gst,

You don't need to pull your tranny to check the things out that you need to. Just scanning your post, it sounds like a pedal linkage/adjustment problem. I would take a look on vfaq for clutch pedal adjustment.

If you are thinking it is a problem on the trans end, go through the procedure that I posted above.

Good luck. Sorry I haven't gotten any pics for you guys. Its been too cold to work on the turd

Scott

 

[jb95gst]

I know it is not something to do with the adjustment, I have tried adjusting the pedal hundreds of times, plus I can hear something that doesn't sound right in the tranny. I am thinking it could be that a spring popped out on the pressure plate, or the fork broke. I don't know if I'm supposed to be able to but I can move the shift fork by hand. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't there supposed to be 2100lbs of pressure, therefore I should not be able to move the fork by hand. Also when I do move it it sounds/feels like it is hitting something that is spinning(maybe flywheel???). Any more information is appreciated.
Thanks, JB

 

[The Foos]

You should be able to move the fork manually toward the driver's side of the car, but when you try to move the fork to the passenger side, you should be able to move it to about the center of the clutch fork window and then it should stop b/c it should be against the pressure plate at that point.

If you can move the clutch fork past the center of the window (toward the passenger side), you have a problem. At that point, I would take the clutch fork boot off and take a look inside the bellhousing and try to see if there is anything out of the ordinary.

Scott

 

[PaintMunky468]

Ok, since we are on the topic of rough shifting, i would just like to say i have the same problem. I occasionally get the random grinding, and its ALOT harder to shift in this car than in anything else. I drove a 97 Acura Integra today, and it shifted effortlessly and smoothly everytime. However on my car, the clutch is kindda weird and hard and the shifter doesnt really like to go into gears easily. My car only has 63k on it (origional miles). I was wondering, is it normal for my clutch to almost have like a sticky point? When i let off it, i notice that it has a fair amount of resistance until about half way, at which point it kind of just lets out easy. This makes shifting kind of rough. I have been driving stick long enough to shift good, and this prevents me from gettin smooth shifts. Could this be a sign of my clutch going? I had another 2g eclipse, and id ont remember having any rough shifts in that, but this new one just seems rougher. Would replacing the clutch fix this?

P.S.- If none of what I just said made any sense then let me know and Ill try to explain myself better.

 

[The Foos]

Make sure you guys are doing your research first before you are jumping onto this thread. There is a lot of good info alread out there. Bad shifting dsm's are nothing new. Many shifted like crap from the factory.

As for your Acura, I don't care what you do to a dsm, they will never shift as smoothly as a honda/acura. They are rod shifted and dsms are cable shifted. That in itself makes a big difference. Also, the clutch in a honda was designed to back a 120 hp motor, not a 200 hp motor. If you setup up to a 2100 lb pressure plate, you have a clutch designed to back a 300 hp+ motor. Items get heavier and that makes shifting harder as a rule of thumb.

Anyhow, here is a list of items that probably cause 99% of dsm shifting problems:
1) Warped/fatigued clutch fork
2) Shot throw out bearing (the ACT units suck, use an OEM Mitsu unit)
3) Improperly adjusted master cylinder linkage
4) Worn clutch pedal assembly
5) Shot sychros
6) Improper flywheel step height

The first thing I would check is the clutch fork alignment to the clutch fork window as described above. Then check the master and slave cylinders for leakage.

After that, check the pedal assembly. This is a pain in the ass, but you have to do it. There is a rectangular extrusion on the shaft that connects the clutch pedal to the assembly that actuates the master cylinder. Over time, this extrusion has been known to round off, causing a loss in master cylinder stroke. I have 160k on my car, and some moron had put a ACT 2600 setup in it (yes, putting a heavy pressure plate in makes this wear out quicker), and I still didn't have this problem. But, from what I understand, many have.

The other thing that I would do is replace the rubber clutch line that goes from the frame rail to the slave cylinder. If you switch to a heavy pressure plate, this line can expand due to the higher load and reduce clutch throw. So go drop $30 on a stainless steel replacement.

After all that, if you are still having problems, its time to take the trans out and start a new list of things to check and do.

ps- If you guys are hearing "unnatural" sounds coming from the bellhousing, I would still check the things listed above first, b/c they are the easiest solutions, but you probably have problems other than that stuff. The first thing I would suspect is a bad tob, but you could have a pressure plate finger broken off or a list of other things wrong. If you get to that point, I will list all of that fun stuff too. Good luck

Scott

 

[jb95gst]

Hey Scott, Thanks for all the info you adding to this thread it is much appreciated.
I am going to check the clutch fork today after I get out of class, then I will most likely end up having to pull the tranny(I need to pull the tranny if it's the fork right???) Also just to update on my info/troubleshooting I have checked the slave/master for leaks, Both were replaced within the past 6-8 months, I installed a stainless line, and have adjusted the pedal to the best I could(Hours of adjusting over months). I was never able to get my clutch to act right(see my above link to the other thread) and now after this happening I am thinking it could have been related to the fork.
I will update everyone tomorrow since I don't have internet at my house right now.
Again thanks for all the help,
JB

 

[The Foos]

Thats correct. If your clutch fork is the part that is causing you grief, you will have to pull the trans to fix it. You can either shim out the clutch fork fulcrum or you can opt and get a billet steel clutch fork. Personally, I used the stock fork and shimmed it out, but I had just dropped over $2000 in drivetrain parts and I got cheap. If I were to do it again, I would go for the steel clutch fork.

Scott

 

[The Foos]

Taboo Speed Shop has some good pics and info on this stuff...

http://www.taboospeedshop.com/clutch.htm

 

[jb95gst]

OK, I got my tranny pulled yesterday(it gets easier everytime) and found my problem imediately. It was my TOB. I attached some pics, it was destroyed. Is this what normally happens when they go bad????? I have only had it in the car since august, and I got it from conoceli, so it was OEM. Another thing, while I have the tranny off, how do I tell if the fork is bent? Would it be realy obvious? And one more question, my clutch should be fine if it was just the TOB right, it looked ok, but I did not take it off the flywheel.
Thanks Again, JB

 

[The Foos]

I would definately take a close look at the pressure plate and flywheel for damage. I have never seen a tob look that bad. There could have been chunks of crap floating around and may be wedged in your pressure plate fingers or god knows what. So make sure to inspect everything throughly before you put everything back together.

As far as checking the clutch fork, that is something you need to do when the trans is attached to the engine. You need to check and make sure that when you have the clutch fork/tob assembly pressed up against the pressure plate that the clutch fork arm that extends to the slave cylinder is approximately centered in the window. That is the only good way to check it.

If it is warped, the clutch fork will be more towards the passenger side of that window. Then you will need to do the stuff that I mentioned above.

Scott

 

[jb95gst]

OK, I checked the fork when the tranny was attached to the block and it sat in the middle of the window. When I engaged the clutch it went close to but did not touch the bellhouse. As for the pressure plate I noticed that two fingers stuck out slightly more than the others..... Other than that it looked fine....
Thanks, JB