Not passing smog because of monitors

[jrprich]

Sorry if this is incorrectly posted. I DID search for TSB 18-005-01

My 96 Talon Tsi AWD Turbo will not pass Oregon DEQ tests due to "Not Ready" messages in the PCM. DEQ tells me Talons are not on their exception list but they do know that they are really Mits Eclipse which is on the exception list

They tell me: "The 1996 Eagle Talon Is not included in the vehicles subject to the alternate gas idle test when unreadies are the reason for vehicle failure. The readiness issue with this vehicle is due to an improper design that usually follows a “key-off” event. Chrysler Recall Event #678, addressed by TSB 18-005-01 contains the information about this situation, and also stipulates that the service will be performed at no cost, regardless of warranty expiration."

Does anyone have any info on this TSB ? I called the local 5 Star Chrysler dealer and the Service Manager says there is no such TSB............

[Gleason at STM]

Found some information on a thread where others were having this issue on various 96 model year chryslers

Seems like what you said, when you turn the key to turn off the car, it erases some readiness monitors everytime, which is why your not passing.

This problem occured when the ignition key was turned off which was erasing the internal memory pertaining to Oxygen Status, EGR Status, Oxygen Heater Status. This did not erase Misfire Status, Fuel Status and Comprehensive Status!!!

There was a recall campaign on this problem #678. Describbed in TSB 18-005-01.

According to what was posted, they found out that the dealership SHOULD cover it supposedly

later in the thread

Well here it is. After reading the above information you provided, I looked into this with the Dodge dealership in town. They covered the PCM flash update (no charge) under a lifetime warranty for this model. I drove the car about 35 miles or so and performed some drive cycle requirements. The car passed the test! The PCM readiness monitors will now hold after turning the engine off.

You should call another dealer and see if you can find out any information.

Can view it here OBD II internal system check question in 1996 3.5 - Page 2 - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat


I'll let you know if I find anything else out.

[jrprich]

Thanks,

This is pretty much what I have found as well.......problem is the Dealers seem to claim this TS doesn't exist.
I was hoping someone had access to the actual TSB that I could show to the stupid Service Managers.
Pretty sure thay have it in ALLDATAdiy.com but I don't have a membership.

Thanks again,

Jim

[Gleason at STM]

Check with another dealer and see if they can find out anymore information. Some dealers dick people around when it comes to recall work. I had one dealer tell me they weren't going to do my transfercase recall and that it wasn't a lifetime recall...lol

[TunaTalon]

Waivers are possible for OBD II Emission tests.

The state of Missouri has issued me a waiver for my Talon for readiness flags not set.

The research has been summarized in a Wiki OBDII Emissions Testing and the DSM - Dsmwiki which includes a sample e-mail requesting the waiver.

This applies to 32 states which are listed in the Wiki.

[jrprich]

THANKS SO MUCH, LOTS OF GREAT INFO HERE

BUT, there is a Catch 22 in my state, Oregon. The do recognise the Mits as needing the back up test BUT they DO NOT list the Eagle
All attempts to get them to have so far failed. I showed the DEQ Tech the Engine wich is clearly marked as a Mits.......no luch as their Software reads my VIN as a Eagle Talon and it has no exceptions for the Talons in the software so they will not test it.

I need to find the Chrysler version of the Mits TSB........so far lots of references but I cannot find the ACTUAL TSB to see if it mentions Talons

Chrysler Recall Event #678, addressed by TSB 18-005-01

I will keep trying,

Thanks again,

Jim

[TunaTalon]

Only a bureaucrat could think that the Eclipse and Talon have different ECU’s.
My contact in Missouri was an engineer. He understood and acted professionally.

If you can’t find an engineer in the Oregon chain of command, maybe show that the Eclipse and Talon have the same OEM part numbers for the ECU.

I did not find the TSB with the Eagle listed in my research, but only because after finding the Eclipse TSB I thought that was good enough. After this post I will search again.

[jrprich]

That about sums the situation up........the "tech" at the testing station did know they were both Mits, but since the DEQ software is based on my VIN and my VIN returns a Eagle, and the Eagle is NOT on the exeption list they can't get their software to report the car as tested and passed..........Catch 22. He did call the head office at DEQ, but as luck would have it seems all the senior managers were in a "training session". So I am to show up again Monday......the 4th time, to see if they can resolve this.

Thanks for all your time, would be nice if Mits AND Chrysler would do something to resolve this. I did send a long and detailed email to Chrysler. But since the car is 12 years old........I don't have much hope.

[PattyG]

I'm looking on motoralldata but I'm not finding a TSB matching those numbers.

I found it for the Eclipse of the same year but I can't find it for the Talon.

[TunaTalon]

California knows about the problem, see http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/ftp/pdfdocs/APPENDIX_J.pdf and search for Talon.

NJ knows about it, see http://www.njrec.org/Downloads/OBD_Probs2.pdf.

I found many references to TSB 18-005-01 that describes the recall but ended up at a firewall at ALLDATAdiy.com :: Access Detailed Automotive Technical Service Bulletin and Recall Information that’s asking $25.00 for the first car to get the full TSB. I guess I’m not that eager to help.

Ah, just checked back in. If PattyG is already in AllData and found nothing I feel even better about not breaking out my credit card.

[jrprich]

Thanks,

I found pretty much the same sites and also ended up at ALLDATA

I did find this in ALLDATA, but couldn't open it.......but it is for a different Eagle

Automotive Recalls and Technical Service Bulletins for 1996 Eagle Vision V6-215 3.5L SOHC. Provided by ALLDATA

[TunaTalon]

If you’re dealing with bureaucrats, your best bet is keeping the argument based on the documentation:
1. Show that EPA recognizes the Talon problem.
2. Show that they need to comply with EPA.
3. Show that other states already recognize the Talon problem.

They are more likely to be helpful if it keeps their paperwork straight.

[jrprich]

Thanks to all for all the time and research on this issue, it is appreciated

Jim

[jrprich]

Catch 22

I emailed Chrysler and their response was:
"The Talon is not part of Recall Event 678 TSB 18005-01 and has NO Recalls listed"

So I have now replied with a copy of the PDF file from the EPA that clearly shows the Talon on page 4.
This is the exact document that Oregon DEQ referenced when they told me the Talon was not eligible for a back up tailpipe test BECAUSE............wait for it...........Chrysler was to fix the problem with the Talon with Recall Event 678 TSB 18005-01

Will advise when they reply

[jrprich]

Chrysler replied to my request to review the EPA document:

Dear James:

Thank you for contacting the Chrysler Customer Assistance Center regarding your 1996 Eagle Talon.

We appreciate the time and effort you took to write to us back.

We have reviewed the attached document but, our records indicate that your vehicle (VIN # 4E3AL5xxxxxxxxxx) is not involved in the Recall Campaign # 678.
Not all the 1996 Eagle Talon vehicles are involved the Recall Campaign # 678.

For any further questions, please contact the Customer Assistance Center at 800-992-1997 for additional information.

Thanks again for your email and for sharing your concern with us.

Sincerely,

George Ray
Customer Service Representative
Chrysler Customer Assistance Center
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So DEQ says have Chrysler fix the Talon, Chrysler says the Talon is not part of the Recall


Catch 22 insanity

[TunaTalon]

James,
In my research I found no responsibility for the manufacturer beyond the eight year warranty which is long expired.

Chrysler has no motive to fix the problem. The car is old, and an orphan. Your best bet now is Oregon. Try to point out that their regulations are not in conformance with EPA regulations.

Welcome to the Bureaucracy.

[jrprich]

Thanks TunaTalon, but in the reference you and others posted................

Actually the EPA doc on page 4 says

"TSB 18-005-01 applies to non-California vehicles and will be performed at no cost, even if the warranty has expired. A similar agreement between ARB and Chrysler has been established for CA vehicles."

That reads to me that Chrysler is responsible forever for this problem.

But I am pressing from both sides hoping to get someone to budge. I have yet to locate a contact at Oregon DEQ to deal directly with......but I am still working on it.
I am also going to contact EPA directly as it would seem that the EPA would hold the biggest stick in this situation.

Thanks again for all your time on this

BTW, I have been a teacher for 32 years and am pretty used to how government bureaucracy operates..........so not surprised, just pi**ed off

[jrprich]

From what I have read, the 99s did NOT have this issue.........will a 99 ECU work in my 96 ? Are ECUs specific to each model, like different for an auto VS a manual, etc.?
What do I need to be shopping for in an ECU or can mine be reflashed by someone other than a dealer to possibly resolve this issue?

[jrprich]

Update 3

Called Chrysler Customer Assistance this AM and had a discouraging conversation with them
They are not budging from their mantra that "your Talon was not part of the Recall Event in question"
I told her that my local dealer claimed there was no such recall or TSB..........she asked for the dealer info and said she would call me back. Ten minutes later the same service manager that told me there was no such recall or TSB called me and surprise..... there is such a TSB, but it has been "reclassified" as TSB 181897.
181897

They offered to re-flash my PCM..........for "at least $150.00"

This seems high to me for a reflash............what do you guys think ?

I also head back from Oregon DEQ and they say they have folks (and they provided names and contact numbers) "working on this in order to expedite your request"
So we will see which mountain will move.

Anyone have contact info for the EPA ??