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Intercoolerless with h2O/Meth

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joat09

10+ Year Contributor
260
0
Aug 1, 2008
Galesburg, Illinois
I have been thinking about the idea of running the car without and intercooler and adding water/meth injection for a daily driver. I'm not looking to gain much out of it but I don't want to lose any power either. I'm curious if anyone has any ideas or if anyone has done it before. I'm also curious if anyone has any data on how much cooler the air charge is with a stock smic than without.
 
E85 with meth injection with no intercooler. I want to do it so badly.

I'm not sure on what the actual IAT's are but if you have the compressor map and the intercooler efficiency you can get a rough idea of what kind of IAT's you will see without an intercooler.
 
You can figure out what your charge temp will be if you know the parameters of your turbo. Download cyclepad and use the model I set up or make your own. You can change the efficiency % of the compressor, the flow rate, boost. Enter parameters for how many lb/min (kg/s) and psi (bar) you're running and the program calculates the charge temp.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/395327-free-modeling-software.html
 
:thumb: Thank you for that casuprock.

I plan on running e85 when it becomes more practical. An also when its actually e85 and not e72 or up e91
 
Well you won't lose power since the intercooler actually eats up some compressor map and piping volume loses.

Don't even bother with Water on a setup like you want, you'll never be able to drop the temps low enough with Water using the current systems on the market. It will bog the crap out of your DSM, run 100% Meth and don't look back.

You'll spool faster and make more hp per psi since it's possibly 4-6psi more efficient vs the intercooler.

Without knowing your turbo, I'd run a 2gph Preturbo and at least two 10gph Postturbo nozzles. If you push the psi towards 30's and have a bigger turbo than consider more Meth. If you have an MAT sensor than you're in business, keep adding nozzle until you're around 90 degrees.

BTW, Devils Own has a powerful pump to make this mod reach its potential.
 
I'm interested in hearing more about this idea.. I havent heard it talked about much.
 
I have been thinking about the idea of running the car without and intercooler and adding water/meth injection for a daily driver. I'm not looking to gain much out of it but I don't want to lose any power either. I'm curious if anyone has any ideas or if anyone has done it before. I'm also curious if anyone has any data on how much cooler the air charge is with a stock smic than without.

Read this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...7-official-no-fmic-meth-how-well-will-do.html

I'm running E85 and water injection with no intercooler. I'm fighting some fueling problems at the moment but the car's running on that setup. And I've gotten problem-free, knock-free pulls in... :sneaky:

Getting IAT data is nearly impossible since nearly no one logs that information unless they operate on Speed Density. No one runs Speed Density with a stock side-mount. I happen to be on SD, so my logs will include that data.



Don't even bother with Water on a setup like you want, you'll never be able to drop the temps low enough with Water using the current systems on the market. It will bog the crap out of your DSM, run 100% Meth and don't look back.


We'll see how far I get with 100% water. I'm hoping it's enough. I'll go meth if I have to, but I'd heavily prefer not to.
 
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Water cools better than methanol but it doesnt vaporize as methanol does. Increasing spool is done by injecting with a 2gph or less nozzle pre turbo. Methanol is preferred pre compressor due to it's low vapor point to avoid damaging the compressor blades.

Running a few small nozzles in the intake track with pure water is a very viable way to drop the air temp. Using methanol is pointless as E85 has a high detonation threshold and the methanol won't do much of anything.

You won't get down as low of temps that a FMIC will, however, it will be greatly reduced.

Bogging only occurs if too much is sprayed.

I personally use a Devils Own universal stage 1 kit and love it. I would suggest the same brand as well.
 
E85 with meth injection isn't completely ineffective. As a dd it won't matter but some beefier builds I believe can. I may be getting a handful with this but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm in the middle of a rebuild right now. I plan on getting everything back to stock and then losing the side-mount. I'm going to start off with 100% water to see what I can do with that first.

Water does cool better than methanol. I don't see me spraying so much in that it bogs down, but it will keep the engine clean. I think 100% h20 will cool a hell of a lot better than a side-mount. Plus you lose the piping,and restrictions. AND...oh man will that turbo spool side nice. I plan on using a BIG 16g for the records.

Thank you for the link UofACATS
 
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Water cools better than methanol but it doesnt vaporize as methanol does.

Running a few small nozzles in the intake track with pure water is a very viable way to drop the air temp. Using methanol is pointless as E85 has a high detonation threshold and the methanol won't do much of anything.


On E85 do you recommend water injection post turbo?

setup: 16G, E85, W/I on a 630ml nozzle
 
i have a question. are you using piping or what are you using to connect the turbo to the intake manifold? since your not running the front mount what do you use in its place? im running e85 right now and will continue but have thought about running e85 with meth.
 
i have a question. are you using piping or what are you using to connect the turbo to the intake manifold?

Charge piping. Otherwise know as intercooler piping, but in this case since there's no intercooler it's not really appropriate.


since your not running the front mount what do you use in its place?

Nothing. You wouldn't need to wrap the charge piping around the front of the car to accommodate a FMIC that's not there. Just turbo outlet to IM, and this would be a fabricated piece.
 
i have a question. are you using piping or what are you using to connect the turbo to the intake manifold? since your not running the front mount what do you use in its place? im running e85 right now and will continue but have thought about running e85 with meth.

You would just have to connect the turbo and the mani with 3'' piping or so. Same stuff you would use for an intercooler. The piping would replace the fmic. Running e85 and meth for a dd wouldn't have any gains. It's one or the other. I would choice meth over e85 due to it not being e85 all the time and that practicability of use.
 
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Just so you know, I'm actually DOING what the OP is asking, running E85 and spraying 100% Meth with Pre and Postturbo nozzles. The two don't cancel each other out like some Phase issue with microphones, each do totally different things which is why they work perfectly together.

This is why this board scares me, the guy giving advice on Methanol Injection says, "Using methanol is pointless as E85 has a high detonation threshold and the methanol won't do much of anything." and people then believe him and ask him more questions. :confused:

You're not helping anyone out there, you're just adding to the misinformation. You're regurgitating posts from people with no experience or knowledge of what Methanol Injection actually does. You must think people run Meth Injection as a form of Octane Boost where Water is used to take out more charge temp and cool the air. Ah, Meth takes out more charge temps, not even close, run 35gph of Water and tell me what happens, now do it with Meth. I can because I'm doing that and it keeps cooling the charge unlike what Water would do at 35gph on a 200psi pump and the current nozzle misting capabilities. Hard to challenge someone in a fight when you can't even finish it which is what happens to Water as you keep running more and more.

Be safe here people, E85 can easily hit it's detonation threshold if the MAT temps are left untouched without the aid of an intercooler or misting fluid. Before you go blowing headgaskets, others have tried this and found the limit, do some searches, the world is bigger than Dsmtuners.com. But you're free to try it and see how much boost you can run on just E85 without an intercooler and let us know. Keep in mind intercooled cars run more boost than non intercooled and it's not because the intercooler adds Octane unlike the crazy amount you get from spraying 10gph of Methanol I guess. :banghead:
 
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What I'm asking is if 50/50 meth/water can replace a smic just fine. I'm not looking for lower IAT's but equivalent would be amazing. Even more amazing would be if with the setup I have I can run 100% water between the bov and tb. I'm also not looking to push the limit on it necessarily. I don't need a fmic and i want the smic piping gone.

I don't believe with my setup that I would gain anything from running both e85 and meth. To me it's either one or the other. For me I would be using e85 and meth for basically the same thing and that is why they cancel out to me, and that would simply be for cooling. Although, of course I know there would be an octane spike and power gains out of it but thats not necessarily what I'm looking for at this point. Any other advantages they both hone I guess I'm not too sure of. If you would feel free to enlighten me. I would love to utilize as much as I possibly could.

Also, Car Cannibal is this you DD that you are driving? How much does the 100% meth and e85 cost you compared to running just pump gas. Thank you for the info.
 
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Just so you know, I'm actually DOING what the OP is asking, running E85 and spraying 100% Meth with Pre and Postturbo nozzles. The two don't cancel each other out like some Phase issue with microphones, each do totally different things which is why they work perfectly together.
Who said they canceled each other out?
You must think people run Meth Injection as a form of Octane Boost where Water is used to take out more charge temp and cool the air. Ah, Meth takes out more charge temps, not even close, run 35gph of Water and tell me what happens, now do it with Meth. I can because I'm doing that and it keeps cooling the charge unlike what Water would do at 35gph on a 200psi pump and the current nozzle misting capabilities. Hard to challenge someone in a fight when you can't even finish it which is what happens to Water as you keep running more and more.
If you missed my post, I'm actually using a water injection system. I'd like to see where you got your information that methanol cools better than water since water has a higher heat transfer rating than methanol.

Methanol needs to have contact with a surface to pull out the heat unlike H20 which can do so in the air better.

Keep in mind intercooled cars run more boost than non intercooled and it's not because the intercooler adds Octane unlike the crazy amount you get from spraying 10gph of Methanol I guess. :banghead:
Who said anything about using a 10gph and no intercooler? Not I. I do agree and I did mention that already if you would look over it again that an IC will cool the air charge better than an injection system. However using no IC has been done for a very long period of time as well on many platforms.

I wish I could go on and add in some more solid infor right now but I need to head to work for the first time in 3 months.
 
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Who said they canceled each other out?
If you missed my post, I'm actually using a water injection system. I'd like to see where you got your information that methanol cools better than water since water has a higher heat transfer rating than methanol.

I think that you two are missing each other in locations. Methanol has a lower rating, which means that it will phase change with less heat. This usually means that it is not phase changing in the combustion chamber, but in the pipes. Water, with it higher rating, needs more heat, a lot more heat, which means that it doesn't usually change until the CC. Meth for the pipes, water for the CC.

Methanol needs to have contact with a surface to pull out the heat unlike H20 which can do so in the air better.

Methanol has a lower surface tension than water, so it mists better, and removes heat from the air because it can be smaller, and because it is worse at removing heat.
 
Methanol has a lower rating, which means that it will phase change with less heat. Water, with it higher rating, needs more heat, a lot more heat, which means that it doesn't usually change until the CC. Meth for the pipes, water for the CC.

I am fully aware of the temperatures required to change the liquids states from a liquid to a gas. Because of that, it doesn't mean that water needs sprayed to be sprayed right at the the TB so large drops flow into the CC.

Methanol will vaporize very quickly due to the smaller drop size and having a lower temperature rating. It's better pre turbo than water for that reason as you do not want to get drops of liquid onto a compressor spinning 70k+ RPMs.

Thermal conductivity of H20 is 0.67 while MeOH is 0.25 and their heat capacity respectively is 4.18 and 2.55. Water draws and holds more heat than methanol can and will.

By spraying H20 just after the turbo, you give it the longest duration in the pipes to draw out heat reducing the air charge temp. Spraying MeOH will pull heat out as well, but not nearly as effective as H20 does however, it has the benefit of vaporizing and making a denser air charge which H20 doesn't exactly do.

Spraying H20 later will produce large droplets that cool directly in the chamber instead of reducing the air charge temp that promotes detonation.

The main reason for MeOH to be injected in a system is more-or-less for the octane boost to raise the knock threshold to allow more boost and/or timing. Water is used to cool i.e. remove heat.


Am I saying not to use MeOH? No, I'm not as you would still want to spray it in the system to help control knock with the still hot air temps. Along with that IMHO spraying water and meth 50/50 just after the turbo would be the optimum location for this kind of setup.

The turbo can be putting out heat higher than 212*F so the water will still vaporize readily creating a dense charge and pulling out a lot of heat which is what you want with a very short pipe system.

If he is able to run a second pump I would then opt to spray 100% MeOH pre turbo to help increase spool, reduce charge temp, and make a denser air charge. Doing so will ultimate allow the H20 being sprayed after the turbo to work better as less heat is being absorbed (as it's not there anymore) right at the compressor outlet.

Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to explain.
 
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I am fully aware of the temperatures required to change the liquids states from a liquid to a gas. Because of that, it doesn't mean that water needs sprayed to be sprayed right at the the TB so large drops flow into the CC.

Methanol will vaporize very quickly due to the smaller drop size and having a lower temperature rating. It's better pre turbo than water for that reason as you do not want to get drops of liquid onto a compressor spinning 70k+ RPMs.

Thermal conductivity of H20 is 0.67 while MeOH is 0.25 and their heat capacity respectively is 4.18 and 2.55. Water draws and holds more heat than methanol can and will.

By spraying H20 just after the turbo, you give it the longest duration in the pipes to draw out heat reducing the air charge temp. Spraying MeOH will pull heat out as well, but not nearly as effective as H20 does however, it has the benefit of vaporizing and making a denser air charge which H20 doesn't exactly do.

Spraying H20 later will produce large droplets that cool directly in the chamber instead of reducing the air charge temp that promotes detonation.

The main reason for MeOH to be injected in a system is more-or-less for the octane boost to raise the knock threshold to allow more boost and/or timing. Water is used to cool i.e. remove heat.


Am I saying not to use MeOH? No, I'm not as you would still want to spray it in the system to help control knock with the still hot air temps. Along with that IMHO spraying water and meth 50/50 just after the turbo would be the optimum location for this kind of setup.

The turbo can be putting out heat higher than 212*F so the water will still vaporize readily creating a dense charge and pulling out a lot of heat which is what you want with a very short pipe system.

If he is able to run a second pump I would then opt to spray 100% MeOH pre turbo to help increase spool, reduce charge temp, and make a denser air charge. Doing so will ultimate allow the H20 being sprayed after the turbo to work better as less heat is being absorbed (as it's not there anymore) right at the compressor outlet.

Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to explain.

How much CH3OH pre-turbo would be used?
 
It varies from a 0.25gph-2gph nozzle according to the members on the Devil's Own forum.
 
Wasn't Shawna's DSM setup like this? The STM 2g.
 
Liquidx, you realize this thread says INTERCOOLERLESS right?

LiQUiDx says
"Using methanol is pointless as E85 has a high detonation threshold and the methanol won't do much of anything".

My canceling out point made from your statement above.

joat09 says
"Running e85 and meth for a dd wouldn't have any gains".

Both of the above are from lack of experience and use of both products or familiarity with those in the Racing World. Good luck with Water. Tell us how much psi you can run Max and how much injector pulsewidth goes up.

Liquidx, you're exactly the guy that's scary to me, you use books as racing facts and end all but without real world accounts to back them up. The Grand National crowd pioneered mass use of Injection Systems, go over there and see how many run water and their vendors sell Water Injection kits = NONE. There are hundreds of GN examples and some have Logging data to prove water is for drinking and feeding your plants. Wanna run just a little water, fine, wanna run as much psi as possible and gain a fueling effect, Meth.

So in theory, Water does take out more heat so it's better. Ok real world that....

Run 30gph of Water and tell me in theory what will happen to your engine?
Books say it will take out so much heat that your MAT temps will be blah blah.

Now tell what REALLY happens when you run 30gph of water through your DO 225psi pump? DEAD ASS BOG!!! How much you cooling now, how much power you making now?

Run 30gph of Methanol and tell me what will happen?
Books say it has less heat extraction, it won't take out as much because it needs a surface to cool vs water. Holy SH**, that's bench racing at it's finest. :barf:

Lesson today, it's hard to cool and perform better when you're engine is bogging, so because you can keep injecting Methanol vs Water, METHANOL will always win out. For those of us who want to actually make max power, add fueling and run with lower MAT temps, we'll keep injecting mass amounts of Methanol.

But Methanol is just pointless with E85 and no intercooler. :notgood::rolleyes:

BTW, over 30gh of Methanol here, running cold and ACTUALLY RUNNING. Like I said, I'm actually doing with the OP is asking.
 
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