DSM-onster: Ive been working on the math for my set up and I want to make sure everything is correct and that I didnt miss anything. I have 750cc injectors and at 80% IDC they would flow 600cc. 600cc X 4 = 2400cc
Min: 15% of 2400cc = 360cc
Max: 20% of 2400cc= 480cc
Weight diffrence calculations:
min: 360cc X 75% = 270cc
max: 480cc x 75% = 360cc
min: 270 x 60 = 16,200 cc/hr
max: 360 x 60 = 21,600 cc/hr
min: 16,200 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 4.28 gal/hr
max: 21,600 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 5.71 gal/hr
***Which would roughly equal an M5 nozzle to run Pure Water***
For a 50/50 mix I would multiply 150% X 5 = 7.5 gal/hr
You said I should go a little bigger but the next step up is an m10 (I believe)
IF I do the 70/30 mix (meth/water) that worked good for you then: 5 x 170% = 8.5 gal/hr.
Im assuming that I should order the M10 (DO10) nozzle and turn the pressure down but I want your opinion since you are more knowledgable on the subject.
EDIT: So if I wanted to run 30 psi I would set the pressure to 130 psi If I was running a 70/30 mix and had a 8.5 gal/hr nozzle (which doesnt exist). If I got the m10 nozzle and ran the 70/30 mix what PSI should the pump be set at?
AAH! I messed up! I remember running an m10 and an m7 when maxing out my 450s with a 70/30 meth/water mix. Pump set to about 120psi (I was running 20psi). That doesn't jive. I know I needed an my 5 if I were to run pure water. My mix has 30% water. m5 / .3 = 16.6666gal/hr, or about an m10 & m7. So you need to take your M5 nozzle size that you would run if it were pure water and divide that by your percent water content, 5gal/hr / .5 = 10gal/hr or M10. This makes more sense anyway, as (total flow) X %water = (required water flow); (required water flow) / %water = (total flow). I don't know what I was thinking then. You have to divide out what you already have for water flow since it is in the mix.
. . . I edited my original post about this. Sorry if I've made you nervous. The math isn't really tricky. Just common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19BLACKGST98
How do you determin how to make the mix? Do you measure the mix by volume or weight? It would be much easier by volume but is that the right way to do it?
Do the mix by volume. The math I showed you converts the volume to weight for determining the amount of volume you need. The nozzle injects unit volume per unit time.
Concerning what ApexVIII uses:
Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.
____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
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AAH! I messed up! I remember running an m10 and an m7 when maxing out my 450s with a 70/30 meth/water mix. Pump set to about 120psi (I was running 20psi). That doesn't jive. I know I needed an my 5 if I were to run pure water. My mix has 30% water. m5 / .3 = 16.6666gal/hr, or about an m10 & m7. So you need to take your M5 nozzle size that you would run if it were pure water and divide that by your percent water content, 5gal/hr / .5 = 10gal/hr or M10. This makes more sense anyway, as (total flow) X %water = (required water flow); (required water flow) / %water = (total flow). I don't know what I was thinking then. You have to divide out what you already have for water flow since it is in the mix.
. . . I edited my original post about this. Sorry if I've made you nervous. The math isn't really tricky. Just common sense.
Do the mix by volume. The math I showed you converts the volume to weight for determining the amount of volume you need. The nozzle injects unit volume per unit time.
Concerning what ApexVIII uses:
Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.
Oh ok. so an m10 for 50/50 and an m10 and m7 for 70/30. I will order a dual nozzle upgrade and an m10 nozzle today. This doesnt go with the rule of trippeling the nozzle size for pure water to run pure meth. if that was the case i would need an m15 nozzle for straight meth....but if i run 70/30 mix i need an m17 (m10 m7).??? I was also not really sure why you up the meth content if it doesnt improve the oct unless you dump in 15+ gal/hr. is it just because we already have the cooling amount of the water maxed out (wont help anymore to add more water) but do we need the extra meth because we havnt maxed out the cooling effects of it yet? Sorry for all of the questions and bad grammar, punctuation and spelling. Im on my phone in class and I am terrible at all of those anyways. I am the only dsm anywhere near my area that is running meth so I have no knowledgable local help.
Sorry but my phone wont let me add to my last post. I also noticed you said max out 450cc injectors in your last post...was that a typo? wouldnt you use like an m3 for pure water with 450cc's...did you mean 750's?
450cc at 100%IDC X 4injectors = 1800cc
1800cc X 20% = 360cc water flow
360cc waterflow X 60min/hr / 3785cc/gal = 5.7gal/hr
5.7gal/hr / 30% water per unit volume (70/30 mix) = 19gal/min. I was using an m10 and an m7.
5.7gal/min required water flow X 3 = 17.1gal/min. I was close enough for water/meth injection.
The rule of thumb is when you run way more meth than water or run pure meth, you tripple or quadruple the nozzle size that you would need for pure water. Leaning on the quadruple side for pure meth. It's not an exact science. But if you do the math for the most you'll push your injectors, then you'll save having to spend more money buying nozzles and shipping. Plus, you'll know that you're at the real limit of your total setup. You'll know for sure that if you get any knock after maxing out your injectors and you know you've injected the proper amount of meth/water, then you need to look into something else. Not many will see that limit .
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Oh ok. I will go ahead and oreder the dual nozzle upgrade and two m10's. I will start off with the m10 m7 cobo and if i cant run 30 psi I will run dual m10's. Thanks for the help again.
Looks like you may have over did it a little if my math is correct for mine.Thanks for the info. What is your boost set at?
i did not do any math lol
i started with a M10 whit a 50/50 mix, got decent results so i tried the M14 with a 50/50mix got better results, tried 70/30 mix got even better results, a
Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.
im only at 25psi boost so would i still be in spec? on one M14?
Close enough, actually closer to ideal. Like I said it's not an exact science. You got better and better results because you were getting close and closer to the ideal mixture for your nozzle flow and pump pressure.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Ok guys I got the Dual nozzle set up this morning at 9am. It is all installed and the washer tank is full of 70/30 mix. I installed 2 DO10 nozzles (m10) So I am around 2.5 or so gal/hr more then what I need. How do I deal with that? Do I just turn the pressure down on the pump? I havnt driven the car since the install and I have dyno time schedualed for tomorrow so that my mechanic can get me tunned on 93/meth and C16. I just want to know what to do so it wont take as long to figure out tomorrow on the dyno.
Edit: I went over the math again and I just rounded my 5.71 gal/hr(5.71/.3 = 19 gal/hr) which I need to run pure water up to 6.00 (or M6 nozzle which doesnt exist). M6/.3 = 20 gal/hr so to run 30 psi I would just have to set the pump to around 130psi...maybe a little less. Correct?
Last edited by 19BLACKGST98; 04-29-2009 at 09:53 PM.
You need 5.71gal/hr of water flow for your 80% or 750s for which you've already don the math, right? This is for 20% water to fuel flow right?
You're injecting a 70/30 meth/water mix. So 5.71/.3 = 19gal/hr. You have 2 m10s so you're only 1 gal/hr over your maximum (20% water to fuel flow). You can just adjust the pump pressure a little. Or run a little more %IDC .
remember that this is set for your PEAK %idc. Every where youre injecting your mix and not at peak %idc, you'll be running more water and meth than you need. Of course this is fine. But just know that you may gain a little by backing off the pump pressure. So test this on the dyno if you can.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I didn't go through the math but that seems like a lot of injection volume. Personally I would recommend starting out with smaller nozzles and gradually working your way up to the minimum amount needed for your goal.
Just curious if you will be using a progressive controller or pressure switch? Have you decided where you will be setting your activation point?
Alot of volume? well. Meth really needs alot of volume. It outputs very poor btus per gram during combustion. The water to fuel ratio has been proven time and time again. the volume increases over the proven water/fuel ratio to compensate for the meth. The math is there to keep the water/fuel at the proven ratio. . . Those numbers work in all my cars I tune with meth/water. I think water/meth injection isn't looked at more seriously because guys short themselves on the nozzle size. I did for the longest time. I ran a conservative nozzle because I was so concerned about loosing power injecting too much water. But I failed to realize that I could up my boost more to increase mass, and consequently fuel flow, to balance the water intake amount just as easily as I could run a conservative nozzle. Guys should be running those calculations to get nozzle size and pushing their setups to find the balance instead of going small on the nozzles and upping sizes until you get to a balance. You do that with an intercooler. It cools X amount; you can't add fins or plates. You see what you can get with what you have. And most get the bigger of their choices.
I prefer NOT to run a solenoid. The water/meth pump has to start over again pressurizing the line. This makes the flow come on gradual enough for all my setups so far.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I've had my system installed for over a year but haven't had the chance to do much with it because so many other problems have come up. In fact, I pulled the fuse so the system is inactive until I can get a few other things sorted out.
Matt, what do you have your activation set to? IIRC your using the pressure switch?
If going by the rule of the instructions Im supposed to start it at 7.5 psi and max at 22.5, So I will first try 8 psi and 22 i guess. (his is if I can get to my goal of 30 psi. Im leaving for the dyno now (after I drop my daughter off with a friend...I hope I dont have any trouble since I have to go to the track tomorrow)
^&^^^^Yep. Actually I've found that begining injection at this boost works best for me with turbos that spool about as fast as 16g turbos: small 16g, evo 16g, td05h 18g, hx35 etc. The small lag of the water pump really helps reduce the bogging. 7-8psi for activation for me.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I'm currently running 950cc injectors at ~85% IDC. I am running 50/50 meth/water with a single 12GPH injector (M10 coolingmist calls it.).
Looks like I am running only half of what I should be currently, and If I go to the recommended 70/30 mix, only a 3rd? Should I really run 3 M10 injectors (I know that's a little much, but I can adjust IDC of my meth injectors - run them at 80%)? Seems like a lot.
I see that cooling mist as 18GPH "inside thread" injectors, but only 12gph "outside thread" injectors, but I think I can put the former inside the latter. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can order (2) 18's rather than (3) 12's.
Well it took a while to figure the whole meth/making power thing out. I also found out that my 44mm tail waist gate spring will not allow me to run more than 28-30 pounds of boost. Since that was the case my meth injection numbers were actually higher than what we could get our of Race fuel. I will get a new spring and get a retune. Now onto the meth part.
Well we only adjusted the progressive controller, fuel and timing. Did not do any changes to the pump psi. The final 93/meth pull was 449whp with 14* timing on the 70/30 mix. My car didnt like timing for some reason??? This was at 26-28 psi. I liked how after about 70 pulls on the dyno the intake manifold was still cold. Then we put the 116 oct in and turned the meth system off and did about 10 more pulls.
With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water? The water aspect is why you can't flood out the injection and why DO doesn't recommend huge nozzles since they like 50/50 blends.
Don't screw with pump pressure, you want pressure, instead ditch injector pulse width at WOT to get your AF/R right where your vehicle is making the most power at.
I'd run it low 11's with Meth so when you hit the road you're mid 11's AF/R.
The car didn't like timing because you're charge temps are too high, drop the charge temp more and you'd be able to run more timing, go 100% METH.
With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water? The water aspect is why you can't flood out the injection and why DO doesn't recommend huge nozzles since they like 50/50 blends.
Don't screw with pump pressure, you want pressure, instead ditch injector pulse width at WOT to get your AF/R right where your vehicle is making the most power at.
I'd run it low 11's with Meth so when you hit the road you're mid 11's AF/R.
The car didn't like timing because you're charge temps are too high, drop the charge temp more and you'd be able to run more timing, go 100% METH.
Im actually running dual m10s. Thanks for the info. I am ordering a 20lb wastegate spring so i can crank up the boost on the 116oct tune that we didnt get to finish. During that I will have him mess with the meth tune a little.
With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water?
Because water at only 15% of fuel flow nets 110 plus octane in the CC.
Meth can be injected at several times the amount of gasoline used and the final octane will be still less. You're better off switching from gasoline to methanol for fuel if youre really wanting to run pure meth. But running the mix allows the cooling effect of alcohol (cools FASTER than water). And you're still getting over 110octane in the CC since you're controling your water flow to 15-20% injection. Besides this negates the shear volume of meth required to do a good job. This saves ALOT of money over the course of even a month of driving. It's a win-win.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Because water at only 15% of fuel flow nets 110 plus octane in the CC.
Meth can be injected at several times the amount of gasoline used and the final octane will be still less. You're better off switching from gasoline to methanol for fuel if youre really wanting to run pure meth. But running the mix allows the cooling effect of alcohol (cools FASTER than water). And you're still getting over 110octane in the CC since you're controling your water flow to 15-20% injection. Besides this negates the shear volume of meth required to do a good job. This saves ALOT of money over the course of even a month of driving. It's a win-win.
Any ideas why we had to put the timing so low? I was hoping for about 50 more hp...but if its not there then its not there. The car did 79 pulls on the dyno last night with no problems (unless you consider a leaky oil cqap a problem). I do have to say that the meth impressed me. it beats out the 116 oct fuel at a lower boost setting and less timing.
7psi is my activation point too. Does the best for me.
The timing had to be less because the fuel combination still burns a little faster. Did you get more power with race gas and the same boost with more aggresive timing?
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
dsm-onster, do you still use just the pressure switch to engage your pump or do you have the progressive controller? It seems you're still on the switch. I'm just curious.
Also, attached is the MSDS for the Splash -20* Wiper Fluid I just picked up.
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Kletke - 16g @ 27psi on Meth
7psi is my activation point too. Does the best for me.
The timing had to be less because the fuel combination still burns a little faster. Did you get more power with race gas and the same boost with more aggresive timing?
The only reason I asked the timing questions was because I found it odd that everyone I see post about Meth injection says they get to add 3* - 4* when I had to take timing away.
I got less power on race gas with more timing (dont remember exactly what it was set at though) and 2 more pounds of boost. We stopped doing the race fuel tune as soon as we realized we couldnt go over 30psi. I have already bought the small spring from my 44mm tail, I am just waiting to get back on the dyno. I know in the end I will make alot more power on race gas because I will be running 35 - 40 psi.
I went to NAPA the other day to get a Hobbs switch to make my meth injection kit more safe. I think I read somewhere while studying up on alcohol injection that you can make it to where if the kit fails the switch will open up so that the car only runs WG pressure. The problem is they had alot of them and I didnt know which one to ask for. Do you know the part number for the one I will need? With the new WG spring waste gate pressure will be at 20psi.
I don't know why your setup didn't like more timing with the meth injection either. Did it make less power with more timing or detonate? Could you run more boost with the meth than 28 psi? There are 4g63 setups injecting the same meth to fuel ratio as you able to run over 35psi. Some run pure meth some run a mix, but they have about the same METH to fuel ratio as you. Many of them don't have alot of timing advance either, though. The primary fuel is still pump gasoline and so realistically you should still get more power from boost than timing even with water/meth injection.
The hobbs switch part number is on this page at the bottem. Click.
EDIT: It just dawned on me. Did you adjust your fuel tune much? Meth can be a little finiky with lambda. Of course being that meth needs to be at 6.3:1 for stoich and gasoline should be at 14.7:1 for stoich, you can see that when running meth injection you'll find that your lambda seen by the wideband doesn't get as rich as you might expect. This is because the final stoich of the meth/gas mix in the chamber will sit at 11-13:1, the average of the pars gasoline and parts methanol which have different stoich number. You're wideband is outputting an a/f ratio as if only gasoline were there, but since meth is added the wideband now is not giving you an accurate A/F ratio. Meth DOES NOT like to be run leaner than stoich. It can tolerate just fine and handle gobs of boost and timing up to a certain a/f ratio. Then once that a/f ratio threshold has been breached, it get's very angry very quick. Since meth is being added to the fuel, you will have that characteristic, mixed with the detonation prone pump gas . It comes down to having enough gasoline in the chamber take up enough of the oxygen to keep the meth happy, then the meth can help you do what ever you want. This is why I like having some water injected in proper amounts along with meth. When it's not happy the water can help keep it to knocking a little instead of cracking pistons.
So. . . you may actually need to add fuel to what would otherwise be a race gas tune to get less knock and take advantage of what a little more timing and/or boost may give you. Or you may not be able to take as much fuel out from a stock fuel curve. You may have to run .5-1 point richer based on the wideband.
Oh BTW, which form of race gas was used? Meth has an oxygen content. It's a great way to get a little more oxygen in the CC without working for it. 2:1 fuel to meth ratio brings about 1.68 parts oxygen to 100parts air when running at an actual 10:1 a/f ratio. Air is 20% oxygen, 20parts to 100parts total air. 1.68/20 = 8.4% more oxygen than otherwise without meth injection . That's like having 8.4% more airflow at the same boost. That's potentially 33whp gain over making 400whp with gasoline alone. Hence your better results with meth/water injection over race gas even at lower boost and less timing.
____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I don't know why your setup didn't like more timing with the meth injection either. Did it make less power with more timing or detonate? Could you run more boost with the meth than 28 psi? There are 4g63 setups injecting the same meth to fuel ratio as you able to run over 35psi. Some run pure meth some run a mix, but they have about the same METH to fuel ratio as you. Many of them don't have alot of timing advance either, though. The primary fuel is still pump gasoline and so realistically you should still get more power from boost than timing even with water/meth injection.
The hobbs switch part number is on this page at the bottem. Click.
. . . It just downed on me. Did you adjust your fuel tune much? meth can be a little finiky with lambda. Of course being that meth needs to be at 6.3:1 for stoich and gasoline should be at 14.7:1 for stoich, you can see that when running meth injection you'll find that your lambda seen by the wideband doesn't get as rich as you might expect. This is because the final stoich of the meth/gas mix in the chamber will sit at 11-13:1. meth DOES NOT like to be run lean. So you may actually need to add fuel to what would otherwise be a race gas tune to get less knock and take advantage of what a little more timing and/or boost may give you. Oh BTW, which form of race gas was used?
The car started knocking when the timing was increasted. He pulled the chip out right after that and burned it with lower timing a few times until there was no knock. He said I could run more boost but it was getting to where it wasnt enough of a gain to warrent it.
He adjusted the fuel with the SAFCII alot (we did 70 93/meth pulls on the dyno and 9 Senoco Maximal 116 oct pulls). He would adjust it and reburn the chip alot of times. We did not use meth at all with the race gas either. The whole thing may be due to me and my tuners inexperiance with Meth Injection. 449whp isnt bad for a car with a turbo that is rated at 502hp I guess.
So you went from 26-28psi with methanol injectiona nd pump gas and gained not as much a difference in power as running race gas and going from 28psi to 30psi?
I'm not understanding how you can get no more power with upping the boost with one fuel but not another. IF you're no knocking with either, then you should get more power simply because there's more fuel and air in the chamber. If more flow can be had with the turbo then more flow can be had. Was it that the tuner kept having to back off timing when turning up the boost with the meth/water injection and pump gas as opposed to the race gas? If that's the case then most certainly I think you all didnt' try a rich enough tune and the meth is becoming finiky. It get's very finiky when approaching it's stoich. Under that threshhold you can get away with SO much though.
Brian Brummel went 131mph with a full weight galant and the fp3052. Yea there is more in it. BTW he was running an alcohol for fuel.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
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. It comes down to having enough gasoline in the chamber take up enough of the oxygen to keep the meth happy, then the meth can help you do what ever you want. This is why I like having some water injected in proper amounts along with meth. When it's not happy the water can help keep it to knocking a little instead of cracking pistons. 
. That's like having 8.4% more airflow at the same boost. That's potentially 33whp gain over making 400whp with gasoline alone. Hence your better results with meth/water injection over race gas even at lower boost and less timing.
