So you don't think I will have any problems with the gm maf being that close to the nozzle?
If it is at least 3 to 4 inches or so away from the MAF the airflow will keep any alcohol from drifting back on the MAF sensor as it's only spraying under boost.
That depends on how much boost your running. You the nozzle size calculator and that will get you in the range you need to be. Plus it can be tweak with the controller or tweaking the pump pressure.
Hey guys, I am a total methanol injection noob so I am sorry for this dumb question. What do I do with the blue tabs in the pictures? Am I supposed to simply pull them off with pliers or something? The only reason I am asking is because they are on there pretty good so I don't want to break anything if I don't have to. Thanks everyone!
I ordered the Devils own kit a few months back and just got it on the car last night. Wasnt a hard install at all. My car is currently not tuned so I havent actually got to try the kit out yet though. The person that does the work on my car is really busy and doesnt know when he will be able to get me some time on the dyno for tuning. Our local forum is having a track day on May 1st so im hurting for a tune right now....lol
Anyways I started calling other shops trying to get tunned using Eprom chips and I talked to a guy that told me I wasted my money buying a meth kit. I asked him why and he said with a properly tuned car water/meth injection will only hurt your power unless you dump in enough meth to be using it as actual fuel. I was just wondering why a known tuner would say somthing like that when there is proof all over the place. He said he tested it on his car and it made no diffrence. Obviously if you can only run 21 psi before meth and 30 psi with meth you would have to see some increase in power
Needless to say I told him to have a nice day and I will not need his services.
That depends on how much boost your running. You the nozzle size calculator and that will get you in the range you need to be. Plus it can be tweak with the controller or tweaking the pump pressure.
I must have missed this so could you point me to this nozzle size calculator please?
EDIT: Also in the instructions it says not to hit the rev limiter while running the meth inj kit because that is causing fuel cut. What about using two step? Isnt that basically the same thing...I will be building boost on the line which will cause the system to start (unless I obviously started the sytem high then the amount of boost that I can build during the two step?)
EDIT EDIT: Sorry guys I keep thinking of things that ive been meaning to ask. I was just wondering if it is ok to use the peak 0 degrees Walmart windsheild wiper fluid because they do not sell 20 below zero washer fluid in the state of Texas anymore due to some Polution bull shit or somthing like that. Also when setting up your controller why do the instructions say to set the first dial to 1/4 of your max boost and the other dial higher? Why dont you just drive the car and when it gets to the point that it is knocking start the Meth 1 PSI before that? (it would save you a shit load of methonal over time)
Yes, if running pure meth, you need to run 3-4 times more than running water, to raise octane in the combustion chamber a significant amount (like from 93 to 99). Whereas just water at about 15%-20% of the fuel flow effectively raise the octane to race gas levels because of slowing the burn rate by removing heat from the flame front. Maybe that is what he means?
If he really saw no gains injecting a smaller amount of meth, then he never pushed a motor on pump gas. The intake pipe, intake manifold, and backside of the valve cover is actually cold after my meth injection, which at the time wasn't enough flow to significantly alter the total octane of the fuel. But a cold aircharge ALWAYS helps, else what's a big intercooler for?
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I think what he did was tuned the car before the meth injection was installed. Then installed it and did no other changes to the tune...threw it on the dyno and saw no power gains. I know he was using 100% meth and was only using one nozzle so he was not spraying enough for it to be used as fuel.
I was under the impression that water/meth injection would not help you when you are running race fuel (c16 in my case)....is that not true...do you use it the exact same way as you do with 93 or do you have to change the settings (do you have to change your mixture?? More meth or more water? Thanks for all the help.
I think what he did was tuned the car before the meth injection was installed. Then installed it and did no other changes to the tune...threw it on the dyno and saw no power gains. I know he was using 100% meth and was only using one nozzle so he was not spraying enough for it to be used as fuel.
I was under the impression that water/meth injection would not help you when you are running race fuel (c16 in my case)....is that not true...do you use it the exact same way as you do with 93 or do you have to change the settings (do you have to change your mixture?? More meth or more water? Thanks for all the help.
With meth injection, you still get benefits of denser aircharge than what an intercooler can give you alone.
With water injection, the droplets don't break up enough to cool as well and the cooling benefits are good but not so good as to see a huge difference on the dyno. Pure water shines in the combustion chamber where it can slow the burn rate. But then the race gas already is there to slow the rate and remove the chance of detonation. Besides, if you inject enough water to render enough droplet surface area that will allow water to match alcohol in rate of heat removal, then you'll bog your motor. So pure water? No, race gas would render it almost useless. But who runs race gas all the time .
Now meth injection? If it we injected in proper amounts, yes you would still see goos results on a dyno even with race gas. I mean who doesn't like sub ambient temps and what $120000000 intercooler kit can match the results of below ambient temps .
If this guy really jsut added meth injection with out a retune and declared that meth injection is useless, then he is NOT a good tuner. A good tuner understands the concepts than make an internal combustion motor more efficient. And clearly his reputation is a bit inflated. I'll wager he did this with an n/a motor too .
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
He did it on a 4g63 DSM. I think he has 3 DSM...one in the 9's one in the 10's or low 11's and one in the 11's. He must just not get the Meth injection concept. So when I get my car tuned on race gas should I run pure meth? When I get it tuned on pump is it more beneficial to run 50/50 do to the cooling of the water? (sorry I read this whole section a couple of times a few months back when I was deciding on getting meth injection but I am in class right now on my Cell so I cant catch back up right now)
For pumpgas, run 50/50 or 66/33 meth/water and triple your nozzle size for what is acceptable for pure water. That's worked best FOR ME.
For race gas, just run pure meth and that same nozzle size. should be plenty of aircharge cooling. Will be like running e-85 instead of race gas.
I understood all of that except for the red part? I will never be running pure water so that part shouldnt apply to me correct? I can only get 0 Degree windsheild washer fluid in the state of TX so I will have to get methanol and mix it with the water myself so I will just use 50/50 for pump gas and pure meth for my Sonoco Maximal race fuel.
Edit: Also is there a nozzle calculator like someone stated above? I have an M7 nozzle in right now but im not sure if I will need a bigger one or not to boost between 27 - 30 PSI. I am also on a single nozzle and am not sure if I should be on a dual nozzle set up. I will check over my Mods and make sure they are correct in my profile.
Ideally, pure water flow should be 15%-20% of your fuel flow. So if you need a m4 for pure water, then you need an m12 for meth to be effective at raising the octane. You don't need that much to see the cooling benefits.
Calculate your required waterflow by guestimating your %IDC with your injectors. But calculating the required water to match gets tricky. Water/fuel ratio should be be based on weight not volume, since water and gasoline have different densities. Water weighs 8.33lb/gal. Fuel weighs 6.25lb/gal. Calculate the 15%-20% by volume then multiply that amount by 6.25/8.33 or 75%.
If you will probably push your 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC, then you will have 800cc X 4injectors of fuel flow, or 3200cc. For the minimum, 3200cc X 15% = 480cc. As mentioned above, gasoline weighs 15% less than water. 480cc X 75% = 360cc. For the maximum, 3200cc X 20% = 640cc. 640cc X 75% = 480cc. Multiply the minimum and maximum by 60min: 21600cc/hr and 28800cc/hr. Divide those numbers by 3785cc/gal: 5.7gal/hr and 7.6gal/hr. An m7 nozzle is all you need for pure water if you plan on pushing your 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC and you have pump pressure set so that your effective nozzle pressure is 100psi after you're on full boost. If you're running 35psi then you need to have a pump that can do 135psi.
You really need to stick to that 15%-20% rule with a water/meth mix. If you run wiper fluid then you'll have at the most 40% meth by volume for -20*F fluid. Many -20*F fluid brands are only 36% meth. (total flow) X %water = (water flow); So (water flow) / %water = (total flow). If you require an m7 nozzle for pure water and you only have 60% water injected, then you need m7 / 0.6 = 11.66gal/hr total flow or an m12 to maintain the water/fuel ratio when running -20*F wiperfluid (40% meth, 60% water). You keep the water/fuel ratio proper for the best results in the combustion chamber and you get the benefit of the meth cooling the aircharge.
A side: Meth is a fuel. m12 X 40%meth = 4.8gal/hr. 4.8gal/hr X 15%water flow = 0.7gal/hr. Meth weighs 6.63lb/gal. 0.gal/hr X (6.63lb/8.33lb) or 80% = .56gal/hr. So you need .6gal/hr more waterflow to match your fuel flow that now includes methanol. But remember that if we were going to run pure water we chose an m7 nozzle with in the range of 5.7gal/hr and 7.6gal/hr. 7gal/hr (m7) was chosen as a starting point for our water/meth mix calculations. We have plenty of flow to not worry about that .5gal/hr. The total fuel entering the combustion chambers, gas and meth, is matched by more than 15% with 7gal/hr water flow (m7). So, when calculating how much waterflow you need to do your water/meth mix nozzle sizing, go a little high so that you can insure that you have enough waterflow to accomodate the meth you're injecting.
If you're running pure meth as I said the rule of thumb is you need to tripple or quadruple your nozzle size if you were to run pure water. So in the case of pushing 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC, 2 m10s would be about enough to see significant enough octane increase to merrit using it. The octane rating ( [RON+MON]/2 ) of meth is 114. 2 m10 nozzles = 20gal/hr = .33gal/min meth flow. 80%IDC of 4 1000cc injectors = 3200cc/min fuel flow. To figure the combined octane of fuels:
[ (gal fuel1 X fuel1 octane X 1gal weight fuel1) + (gal fuel2 X fuel2octane X 1gal weight fuel2) ] / [total fuel weight] = combined octane
3785cc = 1gal
[ (.85gal gas X 93octane X 6.25lb/gal) + (.33gal meth X 114 X 6.6lb/gal) ] / [ (.85gal gas X 6.25lb/gal) + (.33gal meth X 6.6lb/gal) ] = combined octane
(494.06 + 248.29 ) / 7.49lb = combined octane
99 = Combined octane at 80%IDC 1000cc injectors. The total octane will be higher at rpms points earlier; anything less than 80%IDC you will have a higher total octane.
Another side note: If you want to net 105 octane with pure meth, you need nozzles that total 65gal/hr to match the 80%IDC 1000cc injectors ! Tuning nightmare with that much fuel just cutting on at random airflows!!! You would be better off mixing in the gas tank 2 parts meth with one part gas and upping your injector size by 1/3. Then your stoich of the mix would be about the same as e-85 and your octane would be about the same. So switching to e85 would make more sense than pure meth injection for the most part if you're looking for over 103 octane. The amount of meth required to raise the octane gets higher and higher for a very little increase in total octane as you get over 100. The pure meth injection at 3-4 times the requirement for pure water will give you 99-100 octane and will give you the very effective cooling property of methanol. It takes out more heat per part than ethanol and has a MUCH smaller droplet size-- larger surface area in the mist-- than water or even ethanol. It is plenty. And octane is overrated. A cool aircharge with 100 octane is better than a hot aircharge and 105 octane any day of the week.
Pure water raises the effective octane in the combustion chamber to 110+. Though it takes out more heat than meth per part, it doesn't take as much heat out as meth in total because the droplet size due to surface tension is MUCH larger. It takes water alot more TIME to take out the heat. And with a fast moving aircharge, you will see only a small decrease in charge temps. But you can get to race gas octane much easier with water. So this is why I run a mix. I inject enough water for the effective octane in the chamber to net 110+ (15-20% waterflow to fuel flow will do this). And I up my nozzle size for however much methanol it takes to get the aircharge temp to where I want it. I've had good results with a 70/30 mix (1gal meth + 1gal wiper fluid with 40% meth in it) with the appropriate nozzle that matches my injector %IDC.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Last edited by dsm-onster; 04-28-2009 at 09:04 AM.
Reason: Math error!!!! It's all good now :)
Thank you for the reply. I got a little confused while reading it but I think I under stood enough to make a proper nozzle pick. Ive been reading the message board on the devils own site and now after re-reading your other posts in here it all makes sense. Thanks
I did the nozzle calculator on the Devils Own site and it said I would need to flow 7.5 gph if I wanted to run 30psi. How can they know that without asking what mix of water/meth I will be running...or is that number based off of running a 50/50 mix since that is what they recommend? The calculator didnt even ask for Injector size. It asks for Boost level, RPM's and How many liters your engine is...that is all it caltulates from. Oh also the 7.5 gph is with the pump being at 100psi. They said that my DO7 nozzle will from about 9 gph with the pump at 150psi.
I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.
I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.
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Kletke - 16g @ 27psi on Meth
I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.
I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.
What mix are you running? Everyone that I see running 30 psi have much bigger nozzles than the D07 that is recommended to me.
-20* washer fluid from Advance Auto. I have absolutely no idea what the mixture is. The washer fluid list on the Devil's Own site is really out of date as walmart no longer sells their tech2000 washer fluid around here which is supposed to have the most meth content.
What's everyone else running? I choose to run washer fluid because it's cheap and accessable. Sometimes I'll throw a bottle or two of heet in there but not very often.
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Kletke - 16g @ 27psi on Meth
-20* washer fluid from Advance Auto. I have absolutely no idea what the mixture is. The washer fluid list on the Devil's Own site is really out of date as walmart no longer sells their tech2000 washer fluid around here which is supposed to have the most meth content.
What's everyone else running? I choose to run washer fluid because it's cheap and accessable. Sometimes I'll throw a bottle or two of heet in there but not very often.
I will be running 50/50 because in Tx now you can only get 0* or 32* washer fluid now (they started that like a year ago is what I was told)
Thank you for the reply. I got a little confused while reading it but I think I under stood enough to make a proper nozzle pick. Ive been reading the message board on the devils own site and now after re-reading your other posts in here it all makes sense. Thanks
I did the nozzle calculator on the Devils Own site and it said I would need to flow 7.5 gph if I wanted to run 30psi. How can they know that without asking what mix of water/meth I will be running...or is that number based off of running a 50/50 mix since that is what they recommend? The calculator didnt even ask for Injector size. It asks for Boost level, RPM's and How many liters your engine is...that is all it caltulates from. Oh also the 7.5 gph is with the pump being at 100psi. They said that my DO7 nozzle will from about 9 gph with the pump at 150psi.
The nozzle calculator is based off of a 50/50 mix so I will need a bigger nozzle to run a 70/30 mix (meth/water). I will play around with it and go as high as I can with the meth with the m7 nozzle....probably be like a 55/45 mix
I'll bet they are basing the nozzle size off of BSFC and guestimateing horsepower with your variable your plugging in. BSFC changes significantly from setup to setup (IE curt browns car vs. your car).
Stick with the above for the most accurate. You do have some wiggle room regardless. Because the water injected should be from 15% to 20% of the fuel injected. That's a 25% difference in nozzle size. And the more meth you inject, the more your fuel tune is going to randomly vary based on the weather. It's not neccesary to be precise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ->PrOjEcTGS<-
I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.
I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.
Well, you are injecting a fuel when injecting wiperfluid. The ecu doesn't compensate for this becuase it doesn't know that is happening. Thus, when you tune for 11:1 a/f ratio on a 60degree day with meth injection, the a/f ratio goes to about 10:1 on maybe a 90 degree day with meth injection. The ecu dials back the fuel injectors for the less dense aircharge but not the meth injected.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
BTW for anyone that wants to know the Meth content of Advance Auto Parts brand -20* Wiper Fluid. Here is the MSDS sheet it shows roughly 35% mix by weight but could be less.
DSM-onster: Ive been working on the math for my set up and I want to make sure everything is correct and that I didnt miss anything. I have 750cc injectors and at 80% IDC they would flow 600cc. 600cc X 4 = 2400cc
Min: 15% of 2400cc = 360cc
Max: 20% of 2400cc= 480cc
Weight diffrence calculations:
min: 360cc X 75% = 270cc
max: 480cc x 75% = 360cc
min: 270 x 60 = 16,200 cc/hr
max: 360 x 60 = 21,600 cc/hr
min: 16,200 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 4.28 gal/hr
max: 21,600 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 5.71 gal/hr
***Which would roughly equal an M5 nozzle to run Pure Water***
For a 50/50 mix I would multiply 150% X 5 = 7.5 gal/hr
You said I should go a little bigger but the next step up is an m10 (I believe)
IF I do the 70/30 mix (meth/water) that worked good for you then: 5 x 170% = 8.5 gal/hr.
Im assuming that I should order the M10 (DO10) nozzle and turn the pressure down but I want your opinion since you are more knowledgable on the subject.
EDIT: So if I wanted to run 30 psi I would set the pressure to 130 psi If I was running a 70/30 mix and had a 8.5 gal/hr nozzle (which doesnt exist). If I got the m10 nozzle and ran the 70/30 mix what PSI should the pump be set at?
How do you determin how to make the mix? Do you measure the mix by volume or weight? It would be much easier by volume but is that the right way to do it?
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