Don't know if this has been answered yet but since meth/water injection increases the octane rating, does that mean I can run regular (87 octane) and essentially have it be premium (93+ octane)?
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Tim
Grace: 1998 Eclipse GST
Daisy: 1990 Jeep XJ
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Don't know if this has been answered yet but since meth/water injection increases the octane rating, does that mean I can run regular (87 octane) and essentially have it be premium (93+ octane)?
I mentioned this once nad was tolf to still not do it. I wasn't given an explanation though. My guess is try it and monitor knock, it probably won't be as good as 93+meth but it should be better than 89 i would guess
The raising of the octane is very min. Remember you are only injectiong 5-10% methanal at 116 octane and 1/2 of it should absorb into the air before it hits the cylinders. now having the cooler intake air temps you do lower the oct requirement for the motor.
Don't know if this has been answered yet but since meth/water injection increases the octane rating, does that mean I can run regular (87 octane) and essentially have it be premium (93+ octane)?
Also, the injection is not operating all of the time. Most guys set theirs to activate at about half of their max boost. Like Glenn and Chance are saying you should still run the recommended octane in your car.
Ok thanks. One last question. I'm running an EBC on my car and it has a pressure sensor hooked up to the line between the fp solenoid and the manifold. Will running injection cause damage to it?
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Tim
Grace: 1998 Eclipse GST
Daisy: 1990 Jeep XJ
I don't think it will. I also have an EBC with my pressure source hooked up the way that you do. I have had my WI system for almost a year now and have had no problems with my EBC (or it's built in boost/vacuum gauge).
Also, the injection is not operating all of the time. Most guys set theirs to activate at about half of their max boost. Like Glenn and Chance are saying you should still run the recommended octane in your car.
To me, this is 10000% of the reason why one should run their best octane readily available. Glenn already proved that water/meth injection is inconsistant for daily driving. Water and/or meth injection can raise the INSTANTANIOUS, effective octane (seen by the cobustion chamber) upwards of 110 octane. Because it slows down the burn rate of the fuel being used. But there needs to be a consistant supply of this rating. As MOST or all tunes have either HIGH part throttle timing from a piggy back system or a good amount of boost before the injection is cut on.
Having the injection cut on at a later point in the boost/rpm curve is advantagious because more power can be extracted before injection. As injection always takes SOME power away vs running straight C16 or similar (like pure methenol). But you have to cut it on earlier with a lower octane fuel.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Have been installing the Stage 2 universal kit (voltage-controlled) on my Mitsubishi Evo 1 today. All went well except I foolishly forgot to order the 3-bar MAP sensor to go with it. I thought the voltage controller would work but I didn't know beforehand that my MAF operates by a Karmann Vortex system, which gives a signal in Hz and not voltage.
I know that the GM 3-bar MAP sensors are recommended for DSM cars (and therefore my Evo 1 too). But someone I know has a 3-bar MAP sensor that was connected to an Apexi Power FC. Will this MAP sensor suffice or does it have to be a GM one?
I hope you can see my situation and I thank anyone who can offer me some advice in this matter
To me, this is 10000% of the reason why one should run their best octane readily available. Glenn already proved that water/meth injection is inconsistant for daily driving. Water and/or meth injection can raise the INSTANTANIOUS, effective octane (seen by the cobustion chamber) upwards of 110 octane. Because it slows down the burn rate of the fuel being used. But there needs to be a consistant supply of this rating. As MOST or all tunes have either HIGH part throttle timing from a piggy back system or a good amount of boost before the injection is cut on.
Having the injection cut on at a later point in the boost/rpm curve is advantagious because more power can be extracted before injection. As injection always takes SOME power away vs running straight C16 or similar (like pure methenol). But you have to cut it on earlier with a lower octane fuel.
I always run 94 octane, but do have my injection come on at 2 psi. I like the fact that while in boost, theres always straight meth there.
The other reason that I do it like that is because if I have injection coming on at say 10 psi, I already have a hot intake charge, and if my knock threshold is say 15 psi, I do not have much elasped time to get that meth in and the charge cooled.
I also run with no KS, so that helped with my decision to always have injection.
After some more research, I realized i probably was giving up some low boost power, with the tradeoff being a little more safety.
Id just like to add that running meth injection is not inconsistent, i have log after log showing the opposite. Maybe you guys arent doing something right. I have been running meth on cars for years, and i can say that some sort of progressive control is necessary to have consistent results. The old school hobbs balls out setup is only good if your WOT all the time. With the progressive and proper tuning the transition onto meth should be seamless. And if thats the case the end results should be the same pull after pull.
In my opinion you need either an AEM, MAFTPRO, or DSMLink to properly be able to tune the transistion and have the proper fail safes in place. Otherwise you are playing with fire.
Nothing against Glenn but my findings and his seemed to differ quite a bit. I posted them in his thread as well when i was doing my sidemount testing.
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Greg Hernandez
91 Tsi AWD
90 TSi AWD
In my opinion you need either an AEM, MAFTPRO, or DSMLink to properly be able to tune the transistion and have the proper fail safes in place. Otherwise you are playing with fire.
Plenty of other ways to tune it. An Ostrich and Tunerpro RT software is one such method (and the one I am using)
Quick meth question. What equivalent methanol percetnage would these mixes equal (a couple of options here in Japan)
75% methanol/25% ethanol
75% methanol/25% isopropyl alcohol
Yeah but to my knowlege the stock ECU doesnt support secondary, or aux fuel/timing maps. So what happens when your not running meth or theres a failure?
I used to run a SAFC, and a hobbs switch. It worked, but there was no failsafe.
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Greg Hernandez
91 Tsi AWD
90 TSi AWD
Or you just jig up a small warning light into an LED for your dash so you can see if anything's going wrong. And the early Evo ECU at least comes equipped with 5 timing maps and 4 fuelling maps I think. Don't know what triggers them, but they have them in the binary code.
Can someone check this maths for me as something doesn't seem right. I used to be good at maths but I just can't get my head around this one.
So in the past I have been using a 95%/5% meth/eth mix, and I have been mixing that with 25% water. So overall I have had:
71.25% Methanol
25% Water
3.75% Ethanol
If I am using bottles of methanol/ethanol in a 75%25% mix, how much water should I be adding to make it pretty much equivalent? I did some equations using latent heat values for methanol, ethanol and water, and came up with 73% meth/eth mix and 27% water, but I was expecting it to be higher. Do those figures sound right?
I'm leaning towards a 15psi turn on with an 2ghp pre turbo and 8gph post turbo on a 50/50 mix.
Chance, on a 150 psi pump, what would the pressure be on that twin setup above?
The pre turbo pressure needs to be as high as possible for the mist to be fine enough to not cause damage to the wheel.
When running pre turbo i like to run a 1gph nozzle. The micro size of the nozzles verys more wiith pressure than with the size of the nozzle. From a Do1 to a DO14 the micro size difference is 6 micros. The nozzles some of the others are using need almost twice the pressure to get the same micros.
When running pre turbo i like to run a 1gph nozzle. The micro size of the nozzles verys more wiith pressure than with the size of the nozzle. From a Do1 to a DO14 the micro size difference is 6 micros. The nozzles some of the others are using need almost twice the pressure to get the same micros.
does this hold true for whatever size turbo? i already have an m7 pre TB and i plan to put another injector pre turbo. my new turbo is an HX35. what size of an injector should i put? the goal is to lower intake temp and make the turbo spool faster.
I have an FMIC already and planning to use 100% meth unless you guys suggest lowering the meth % and add x% water.
Im running a M15 before the TB and a M2 pre-turbo. Honestly im not impressed with the results. I see more of a broader boost spike than before but up top no real gains and the IATs seem to be warmer now by about 5*. I'll be switching back to a single nozzle again this week and back up the results.
Something to note, these two pulls are clips of 3rd gear drag pulls. The Single nozzle data is from my 11.75 pass at the track sitting in the staging lanes with the car running. The Dual nozzle data is from a test road i use where the car was less likely to be heat soaked. While the temp difference isnt crazy i expected to see more (and in the other direction) and an increase in boost. Both didnt happen so i will be switching back to my single M15.
Im running a M15 before the TB and a M2 pre-turbo. Honestly im not impressed with the results. I see more of a broader boost spike than before but up top no real gains and the IATs seem to be warmer now by about 5*. I'll be switching back to a single nozzle again this week and back up the results.
Something to note, these two pulls are clips of 3rd gear drag pulls. The Single nozzle data is from my 11.75 pass at the track sitting in the staging lanes with the car running. The Dual nozzle data is from a test road i use where the car was less likely to be heat soaked. While the temp difference isnt crazy i expected to see more (and in the other direction) and an increase in boost. Both didnt happen so i will be switching back to my single M15.
Very interesting graph. It actually shows that using a single injector set up gives you lower IAT. Also, the boost patterns are similar with pre turbo vs. using a single per TB injector.
How far did you mount your pre-turbo injector from your turbo? im just curious. also it might be a case of having too big an injector pre turbo thus choking the turbo (i dont know though, im just talking out loud.)
On the aquamist forums there are several instances, and one confirmed with a log, that the intercooler actually becomes an 'interheater'. Preturbo, with a large flow nozzle, the intake temps after the intercooler were above intake temps without a large flow nozzle. The inefficiency of an intercooler shows up with preturbo injection. Apparently,you need to tune the preturbo flow. You have to either get a more efficient intercooler, make the one you have more efficient (ducting like Corky Bell suggests, even for a FMIC), or use less preturbo nozzle.
Here is the aquamist thread discussing preturbo injection and intercooling with results: Preturbo Water Injection. But every time I try to enter the forums or that thread, I get this error message: Critical Error Error creating new session DEBUG MODE SQL Error : 145 Table ???
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
On the aquamist forums there are several instances, and one confirmed with a log, that the intercooler actually becomes an 'interheater'. Preturbo, with a large flow nozzle, the intake temps after the intercooler were above intake temps without a large flow nozzle. The inefficiency of an intercooler shows up with preturbo injection. Apparently,you need to tune the preturbo flow. You have to either get a more efficient intercooler, make the one you have more efficient (ducting like Corky Bell suggests, even for a FMIC), or use less preturbo nozzle.
Here is the aquamist thread discussing preturbo injection and intercooling with results: Preturbo Water Injection. But every time I try to enter the forums or that thread, I get this error message: Critical Error Error creating new session DEBUG MODE SQL Error : 145 Table ???
Not sure who you are talking to. I know my FMIC isnt the best but id say overall efficiency is pretty good considering ambient when those were taken was in the mid 80's. Also i was running 100% meth for the other poster. And my nozzle was about 2" from the turbo inlet. You can feel the compressor cover is cold. But im probly going back to my proven single nozzle.
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Greg Hernandez
91 Tsi AWD
90 TSi AWD
In that case Chance was right in using just an m1 nozzle pre turbo.
Also i remember turbo glenn and in the aquamist forum that should you want to do pre-turbo injection, you should also mount the injector as far away from the turbo as possible in order to create a finer mist before it reaches the turbo.
going to try this in the engine that im rebuilding with my hx35 and see what i come up with.
Yea, Your intercooler is heating the air back up to the ambient temp outside, 80*F . Hence cold compressor outlet and hotter measured temps after the ic. There's a reason why the compressor is cold but the final temp is 80*F.
There is page after page of naca (NASA) and other other scientific study with data on "wet compression", "turbine inlet cooling" and it's high cooling effect. The nature of an intercooler is that it's efficiency is best when there is the most difference in temperature. Many GN guys use preturbo water injection. The hotair cars (non-intercooled pre '86) especially. It does take a juggling act with the intercooler or you will end up with slightly higher final temps.
Also since methanol does very little for absorbing heat vs. water when both are at the same droplet size, most recommend using pure water preturbo. Water has the chance to completely vaporize at the compressor exducer and will take out 3 times more heat than methenol when it does. Methanol shines in an environment where water cannot be reduced to the proper droplet size, like in an intake tract after the turbo. And performs about 3 times less when conditions are favorable for water to be properly broken down, like a turbo's compressor.
Magenta are the temps right after the turbo. They are nowhere near as high as we'd expect them because of the cooling effects of the water spray. However this compromises the efficiency of the intercooler, and this is quite clear in the Yellow line (post-intercooler). The larger the nozzle, the smaller the effect of the intercooler.
The guy who contributed the above log to the link there is the same one who I am talking about who posted on the aquamist forums, which are broken at the moment . All who posted to that aquamist thread came to the same conclusion as the above quote.
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
So are you saying a larger pre-turbo nozzle is needed to see gains? BC as i see it, the best IC in the world isnt going to net sub-ambient temps unless its a liquid/air setup. Oh well, i will be taking it off. I was hoping to see it extend the compressor map a bit and pick up a few psi up top. That didnt happen so ill take the additional cooling from the single M15.
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Greg Hernandez
91 Tsi AWD
90 TSi AWD
. All who posted to that aquamist thread came to the same conclusion as the above quote.
