When is a linear injection system going to be made? One that will have a flow rate that will increase linearly with fuel/airflow?
Here you go. Scroll about half way down and look at the section titled "Boost Pressure Water Injection." It is linear in the sense that the volume of liquid injected is directly proportional to the boost pressure.
This system is intriguing because of it's simplicity. I'm not sure why this concept is not more widely used. It seems to me that with less components to the system there should be less chance of system failure.
Ray, I wonder if this type of a system might be better suited to your unique setup given that the recommended injection location is pre-compressor (theoretically there will be a greater amount of time for the liquid to draw heat out of the intake charge) and it will start injecting as soon as positive pressure develops. Just a thought.
Chance, none of this is meant as any disrespect to your product. Frankly, your kit has been at the top of my list for several months now and I have heard very good things about it.
____________________________
Romeen
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Why do people use meth on under 400 hp DSM's?
Why would one use meth on a Stock 14b car that is stock, he dosent even have a SAFC (posted above)
I dont understand this. IMO, one should use meth injection when they reach the limits of pump gas and they are to cheap to run race gas. Sorry if I am wrong but that is my opinion... You know what they say about opinions...
Using a water meth kit is not going to give you a gain on a car that runs good on pump gas unless you use it to turn up the boost or tune more aggresivley... If you are running a 50 trim setup and start knocking above 22 psi then you add say a M15 nozzel of pure meth to increase your octane rating now you can turn up the boost some and make some more power.
For less knock and cooler intake charge? Also headroom on smaller injectors.
It probably does require an SAFC to tune properly (or dsmlink etc), but I'm sorry that I'm broke and am interested in learning more about water injection, regardless of financial abilities.
Defiant has always said water injection is useful on almost any car. Turbo or otherwise.
The link above also corroborates my reasons for having an interest.
Here you go. Scroll about half way down and look at the section titled "Boost Pressure Water Injection." It is linear in the sense that the volume of liquid injected is directly proportional to the boost pressure.
This system is intriguing because of it's simplicity. I'm not sure why this concept is not more widely used. It seems to me that with less components to the system there should be less chance of system failure.
Ray, I wonder if this type of a system might be better suited to your unique setup given that the recommended injection location is pre-compressor (theoretically there will be a greater amount of time for the liquid to draw heat out of the intake charge) and it will start injecting as soon as positive pressure develops. Just a thought.
Chance, none of this is meant as any disrespect to your product. Frankly, your kit has been at the top of my list for several months now and I have heard very good things about it.
It might be interesting, but I can't get enough pressure difference to make that effective, plus I've tried that before and if it is pre turbo you get compressor blade damage from the liquid. I'll pump my juice in for now, but I always like suggestions.
It might be interesting, but I can't get enough pressure difference to make that effective, plus I've tried that before and if it is pre turbo you get compressor blade damage from the liquid. I'll pump my juice in for now, but I always like suggestions.
I assumed that the reason you are supposed to inject pre-compressor is so that the pressure in the intake (post-compressor) does not work against the pressure of the injection which is being powered by the boost pressure. Is that what you are referring to when you say pressure difference?
BTW, I'm not trying to get you to change your mind . Just trying to understand things better for my own ongoing automotive education. I've pretty much already decided on a nice high pressure pump......more of a track record backing it up.
Just wanted to throw in that your project is quite impressive. It's inspirational for many of us.
I forgot who made it, but there is an alcohol injection kit that is linear/progressive, and taps into some of the signal wires on the stock MAS, and goes based on that.
That is what I look into getting, set it and forget it ordeal.
I forgot who made it, but there is an alcohol injection kit that is linear/progressive, and taps into some of the signal wires on the stock MAS, and goes based on that.
That is what I look into getting, set it and forget it ordeal.
When you think about it, given the amount of electronic control that we can have over engine operaton these days it really shouldn't be that hard to control injection timing and rate based on these measurments of engine function. Then again I'm not an engineer.......
Why do people use meth on under 400 hp DSM's?
Why would one use meth on a Stock 14b car that is stock, he dosent even have a SAFC (posted above)
I dont understand this. IMO, one should use meth injection when they reach the limits of pump gas and they are to cheap to run race gas. Sorry if I am wrong but that is my opinion... You know what they say about opinions...
Using a water meth kit is not going to give you a gain on a car that runs good on pump gas unless you use it to turn up the boost or tune more aggresivley... If you are running a 50 trim setup and start knocking above 22 psi then you add say a M15 nozzel of pure meth to increase your octane rating now you can turn up the boost some and make some more power.
Easy in my view...added safety. You know how my car knocks already, imagine with no water/meth. I'm more interested in water injection rather than meth injection which is why I'm trying to get more info from Chance of Devils Own and David at Coolingmist who have setup 100s of systems. For people running less power water cooling is more important. Remember on my T28 how hot my turbo would run at 22 psi, without the water injection when I was tuning it on my logger it just sucked how much timing got pulled. I was stuck at 19 psi. But after water injection I could run 22 psi with some knock but nothing like before and there was definate gains compared to before water injection.
There's some folks on here that have run only water injection with a smic, not needing a fmic at all if it's done right with a good tune. Plus you know how my car likes to knock and adding fuel doesn't even calm her down. I'm going back to more water because I want more cooling which is my biggest concern. Hence the 4 fan setup I'll be testing out soon!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTurboEclipse
I forgot who made it, but there is an alcohol injection kit that is linear/progressive, and taps into some of the signal wires on the stock MAS, and goes based on that..
Variable controller that coolingmist sells does this. Maybe Devils Own as well but I haven't checked. The former allows you to set a min/max point of 1-30 meaning you have a range of 2-60 psi to set 10 points of control over and injection follows a curve based on that. Think safc style. Depending on which model you get you can control injection based on EGT temps, intake temps, MAP, etc...there is a 0-5 volt input and a boost pressure line, AND you can run both concurrently if you want!
RayPeters, I will read thru it when i get afew minutes. That post already caught my attention afew days ago. Just didn't read it all yet.
PieEyedPiper yes some way of tunning pretty much is a requirement. alcohol injection is a supliment mod. Just putting it on a car and touching noting generaly will not provide any increase in power. Its what it allows you to do like turn the boost, timing higher than possable with your current tune. I have not seen any tanks with lights you have a link?
You should aim around 12-12.5 A/F's. Thats generally what most people look for.
thegchild04
I have some users that use there factory washer fluid tank. Our most common tank we sell is our 4qt which should last you aprox 2 tanks of gas. It just depends on how you drive. I know some people that make it 3 tanks of gas. The 2 quart usually will last from tank of gas to tank of gas.
Rice Over Wheat
alcohol injection is one of them trial and error items when it comes to tunning. I would try the m5 for 1 of them and that will be pretty much the max i would try for your app. If you still getting kr i would look elsewhere in the car.
romeen
You should not feel a bog, if you do your nozzle size is to large or your turn on is too low. It should be pretty seem less.
Boosted98gsx
We are worken on a freq based unit that will work off most style maffs. Not sure how long till we have it out. We have at least 10 items in different states of completion's right now. So we should have some realy cool stuff.
2gAWDTalon
alcohol injection does not require someone to have x hp first. but like you said it does not provide any benfits unless you are pushing a tune to a farther limit.
romeen
non taken, I am here first to discuss alcohol-water injection. I just want people to know more about it. Once someone knows how they work then they can better decide if my system is right for them or someone else kit is.
I already get a huge portion of sales to dsm. I constantly get asked the same questions pretty often. So i thought i would start coming over here to help educate people. Its a someone new topic. There is a huge amount of miss info out there.
There is plus and minus to every system. The controllers have to be designed where they work on a very wide range of cars. 90% of all cars have a sensor that 0-5v that is lineal to some engine load prem. Like a map sensor or a voltage based maff.
Now the next common is freq based maffs. Now the problem is from make to make they all have a different range. some go from 200hz to 1000hz. some go from 2,000hz to 13k hz. So you can see how it could turn into alot of differnt products for differnt applications. We are small so its hard to do this. We do plan to have a freq based unit that will work for the most common maffs soon.
I must commend Chance for his attention to this thread. I have bought a kit from him and his service was great, delivery was fast and the kit was nice. Now after seeing how he responds to this thread I am very impressed with the potential of his service. Thanks for being a good vendor Chance.
This kit is specifically for Mitsubishi, Diamond Stars, and some Chrysler vehicles. It is very unique and extremely comprehensive because it uses 2 input signals: manifold boost pressure and the MAF output signal (200-2000 Hz). This allows it to more accurately deliver the correct amount of water-methanol under a wide variety of conditions. The start and full dials adjust according to boost pressure, the MAF settings are built into the internal map. Now with Lifetime Warranty - please see details.
i have a question regarding the pulsing of the pump. I Tee'd a return line to the tank with a flow controller to maintain steady pressure to the nozzle and stop the pulsing and i must say it works excellent, im just not too fond of the pulsing idea and makes it feel like the water /fuel ratio isnt consistent throughout the rpm band, my question is.. why dont any kits implement this?
I must commend Chance for his attention to this thread. I have bought a kit from him and his service was great, delivery was fast and the kit was nice. Now after seeing how he responds to this thread I am very impressed with the potential of his service. Thanks for being a good vendor Chance.
Thanks I try to. Can be mind boggling some days.
idt512
The on the top of the pumps there is a pressure switch it you turn it clockwise it can lessen the pulse. On some m3 nozzle cars it will still pulse very lightly. And i am talking about very lightly.
Another option would be an accumulator. They will take the spike off. We should have ours for sale within the next week or two. I will be posting pics of our in the next day or too. Need to take a pic. It will be cheaper than what else is out there.
Its not added to kits because it not really needed. Other ways how to remove this that will work better in the long run.
Chance, I still need a new Diaphram for a shurflow pump. I asked you about this before and you did not have them in stock, can you please let me know what is up with a new seal kit/diaphram. Thanks!
The on the top of the pumps there is a pressure switch it you turn it clockwise it can lessen the pulse. On some m3 nozzle cars it will still pulse very lightly. And i am talking about very lightly.
im aware of that pressure switch, however wouldnt you only be raising the "set point" of the switch? You would not be able to dial in your desired pressure if you were to just raise the set point of the switch
Chance, I still need a new Diaphram for a shurflow pump. I asked you about this before and you did not have them in stock, can you please let me know what is up with a new seal kit/diaphram. Thanks!
I have misc parts on order from shurflo and they did not show up on my last shipment. Not sure whats going on there.
You really can't set your desired pressure with these pumps Well you can but the lower you go than 150 its just going to pulse more.
Chance, with the Surflow 150psi pumps, I heard that pressure is allways veriable, that the pump turns on around 110psi and shuts off around 160psi. Is this correct? If so/not, how does the switch work?
No, they don't work quite like that. This is probley the most miss understood part of the alcohol injection systems. See these pumps where orginaly intended to be used with large 3/8 id lines and they would provide no more than 40psi or so of pressure. Now what is done to get the pressure as needed for an alcohol injection system. The hose is reduced to 1/8 id. So with the reduction in line size increases the pressure. Now the other factors that plays into output pressure is the nozzle size the restriction. The smaller the nozzle the higher the pressure. Big lines no nozzle, low pressure.
Now nozzle sizes that are very small say a m3 can cause the pump to build pressure to 150psi and then turn off till the pressure drops down to 135 and then back on again. Now if you didn't put a nozzle "open flow"in the pressure would never hit 150 and thur it would never cycle. Anything bigger than a m5 usually will not cycle at all. Systems with m3 nozzles will cycle a slight bit. There is just not much that can be done about it and it honesty is not varrying the fluid that much. It takes 4 times the pressure to double the output of the nozzle. So if your only varying the pressure 10% its not varying the flow more than 2-3% max.
I know everyone always rates pumps at psi but the deal with these pumps realy is the volume of fluid being moved. More volume less pressue, less volume limited to pressure switch of 150.
To me race gas belongs on the race track.
If you want to make good power on the street then meth injection is the way to go.
I run a progressive setup from alkycontrol that looks similar to the one devils own is selling.
I made 600awhd using pump gas and meth injection.
I run a M10 and a M15 nossel.
I highly reccomend one of these progressive setups for any street car looking to push the limit of thier setup.
The one Devils Own is selling looks like a good deal.
Mine was a little more but I did use all stainless line and a filter.
____________________________
Tom N.
11.4 @ 119 (evo316g)
I want to buy a progressive kit for my daily turbo eclipse. A few questions.
First, what nozzle do you recommend? I'll be running (as much as I can, but probably close to) 21 lbs on a "Big T-28" turbo. It's a small-frame, T-25 based turbo with a small exhaust housing. It's rated around 36lbs/min. The engine is stock 2.0, AZ awesome 91 Pump. The heat will be up there. I think the meth/water will rock my socks.
http://www.dvdtfab.com/ The 2G street kit. If you're not familar with this design, check out his site, it's pretty cool stuff.
Because my FMIC should cool the charge decently, I'm thinking about running 75% meth, 25% water. My limited research/knowledge leads me to believe water helps more in those cars with less than optimal I/C setups, thus the greater need for water's cooling ability, while meth is for those efficient (or overdone) FMIC setups which would benefit more from the octane properties in meth, while still benefiting somewhat from the 25% water.
Sound reasonable? (wrong? heh) Perhaps I'll start with 50/50 and see what the car likes.
I will be running all the supporting junk. Wideband, DSMlink tuning, 780s, 3" exhaust.
Good to see a very involved water/meth injection person on this site. There are so many questions on setups that I am sure its hard...
DSMLink has a feature that is nitrous controlled, where you can operate it at certain rpms at more than percentage tps and it will basically provide power to the line. Would you recommend this or to use your controllers?
Since I will be looking at basically running washer fluid which is 20/25% meth, the rest water, what nozzle would you recommend for a 16g at 20-26 psi (some people have run up to 26 psi with water/meth)? I would really like this for safety during road racing, to keep the temps down, as I will always be battling temps. I would want a nozzle that could cooperate at 20-26, but also could be set to come on at as low as 16-18 psi for road racing...
Because my FMIC should cool the charge decently, I'm thinking about running 75% meth, 25% water. My limited research/knowledge leads me to believe water helps more in those cars with less than optimal I/C setups, thus the greater need for water's cooling ability, while meth is for those efficient (or overdone) FMIC setups which would benefit more from the octane properties in meth, while still benefiting somewhat from the 25% water.
meth atomizes better and offers a better intercooler property than water because it absorbes the heat "quicker" than h2o. However, h2o in the combstion chamber is where it shines!!! It slows the burn down (raises the effective octane) when it DOES begin to absorb the heat because it absorbs so MUCH heat. The point: the threshold if absorbtion is different, not just the percent absorbtion.
If you want the octane properties of meth then you need to mix it in the gasoline in your tank. I.E., run LOTS of it at the injector nozzle (much larger than the cc rating than your injectors).
____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
UofACATS
I would start off with an m5 nozzle. in notes put you need a 3,5,7 so i can get you the 3 nozzles closest to what your going to need for tunning. I would start off with a 50/50 mix.
D_Eclipse9916 our controller is going to work nicer than most built in engine controls hardware. Some do have pwm outputs but can't provide a 10amp draw so a relay would be needed and relays are slow response time. With what your talking about its an on/off setup and it would function simlar to our base kit. I would run DSMLink to controll our system over our base kits switch. But our progressive kit will function nicer than both our base kit and DSMLink.
With progressive kits this even goes for other manufactures, you can usually have your alky come on around 4-5psi and have it ramp up to your max boost. With using what your talking about its going to be and on /off setup and will need to come on at the lowest 3/4 of your max boost. The progressive controllers are what allow for you to start cooling earlier. Its also easier to tune. We do have many dsm running our base kit and are happy with them.
I am battling a heatsoak issue and was wondering if one pre tb nozzle isn't enough could a second nozzle pre i/c be added to your base injection kit? Is is as simple as t-ing the second nozzle into the feed line for the tb one and run them both at the same time?
I have a snow meth kit, and I'm having some troubles finding a 0-5v source for the kit to run off of.
When hooking the thing up directly to my GM MAF it seems to like to turn on at very low crusing speeds (1,500-2,000 rpms) This is with the 2 adjustment dials set to their max.
Anyone have any ideas... or anyone have a list of 0-5v sources that would be comprable turn-on sources?
____________________________
-Niky- E3 16g powered 2.3, plus cams and meth. DD
DJ23GSX,
yes, you can add a 2nd nozzle simply as putting a tee in. But i highly recommend not putting a nozzle infront of the ic anyways. I think its best to only run 1 till about 500hp.
96gsdsm
gm maff sensors are freq based not voltage based. You need to run a 2 or 3 bar map sensor would be the most ideal. Only sensor in the car that is 0-5 v is your tps sensor.
Just wanted to point out something interesting I found. The winter formula washer fluid from Walmart seems to be the favorite injection mix for most guys. Browsing the WI threads these last few days I have seen the meth amount consistently reported as being 49%.
I noticed a couple guys stated that it is actually only 25-33% meth. So I checked the MSDS. It appears that they are right. The Super Tech -20 washer fluid that Walmart sells is 30% methanol.
I have a couple questions on your kit I'm installing...
1st. I need about 3 more feet of hose. Where can I get that? I want to finishe my install tomorrow!
2nd. The ignition 12volt source, where do you recommend I get that some? Can't I just use the 12 volt off the battery again?
So far everthing is going well. The tap worked perfect between the two window washer motors.
. Just trying to understand things better for my own ongoing automotive education.
