ARP Head Stud Weirdness

[4gfun]

I decided to install some ARP head studs on my 93 TSI AWD w/6 bolt swap while replacing the head and head gasket.

I've encountered a few difficulties and I'd like to know what your thoughts are.

I started off by chasing all of the holes that the stud go into the block with a head bolt that I converted into a thread chaser by cutting down the threads horizontally in 4 spots to mimic a tap.

I used plenty of brake cleaner, compressed air, and Q-tips.

I encountered some issues with hole number 10 in the block (the last hole in the torque sequence which is the hole on the upper left hand side of the block if you are facing the vehicle).

First of all, I could not thread in the stud completely by hand. I cleaned the hole, chased it, etc., etc., about 10 times but to no avail.

So I decided to turn the stud with an allen key when I could no longer turn it by hand. It turned rather easily at that point, but you could hear a little bit of a screaching type of noise when turning it or backing it out. I also tried to tighten it by hand after adding a drop of oil, but that didn't change anything so I cleaned up the threads and installed it dry.

I looked down the hole and about two rows of threads were not perfect, but definitely not the worst thing that I have seen in my life.

I decided to just leave it alone and install it.

Then I followed ARP's instructions torquing all bolts in the OEM sequence, first to 30 ft. lbs, then 60 ft. lbs.

I then torqued my first 9 bolts to 90 ft. lbs but when I went to torque the stud in this hole, the torque wrench clicked right away even though I had never torqued that bolt past 60 ft. lbs.

I checked it with a beam type torque wrench and it was definitely torqued down to at least 90 ft. lbs. In fact, the stud still did not turn at even 100 ft. lbs. so I just gave up.

How did the stud self tighten from 60 psi to 90 psi on it's own? Should I be expecting a leak here shortly?

BogusSVO has been helping me out alot on the sidelines with my build, but I don't want to wear him down with all of my questions.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[VtecvrsTurbo]

It may be too late, but you should have checked the depth of that hole before inserting the stud. Maybe compared it to another. It almost sounds like it bottomed out on something.

 

[4gfun]

It may be too late, but you should have checked the depth of that hole before inserting the stud. Maybe compared it to another. It almost sounds like it bottomed out on something.

Not sure, the height of the stud was equal to all of the others (at least by eye) when I put the stud in. There was also no obstruction in the hole. Like all of the other studs, I tightened the stud as far as it could go, then backed it off by 1/16th of an inch.

Project costs are adding up. I completely lost my first head gasket (can't find it anywhere). So I bought another head gasket. I installed my intake manifold gasket backwards, so I pulled the head again and put another head gasket down.

That is 3 head gaskets. I am inclinded to get it together then start it up to see what happens and if it leaks I'll just part it out at that point.

 

[VtecvrsTurbo]

Haha I wouldn't think it wont seal. I thinking that if the nut is actually NOT hitting the un-threaded part of the stud and bottoming out, you should be good. As long as you know your torque wrench is good, roll on.

Besides, of all places for this to possibly be a problem, #10 in the torque sequence is one of the better ones.

 

[4gfun]

So it looks like I am/was supposed to follow an additional process in that I should untorque the head studs 5 times and then loosen them 5 times:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...alling-arp-head-studs-please-help-thanks.html

I don't see where I am supposed to do that in the ARP Kit instructions found here:

http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/207-4201.pdf

 

[4gfun]

Haha I wouldn't think it wont seal. I thinking that if the nut is actually NOT hitting the un-threaded part of the stud and bottoming out, you should be good. As long as you know your torque wrench is good, roll on.

Besides, of all places for this to possibly be a problem, #10 in the torque sequence is one of the better ones.

Thanks!

Looks like we posted on top of each other ....but I think that I missed a step which would allow me to at least verify this weirdness on Stud #10.

I wonder if it is too late to do the other 4 cycles now since a few days have passed??

Can I/should I go back to loosen the nuts again being that I torqued the head down a few days ago?

I haven't done anything at all besides tightening these nuts. I literally just slapped the clean valve cover on top of it to keep the head from getting rusty and covered it with shrink wrap. I never bolted the valve cover down.

You are right on #10 being quite possibly the least important in the torque sequence....but interestingly enough, this cylinder is the one that was filling up with coolant prompting this whole head gasket change (I bought the car like this with the intention of fixing it up).

 

[renovatdkitchen]

The number 10 stud on my 1G was also sticking up a bit. Couldnt get it to go down to match the height of the others. Could have been a small pool of oil or something there. Torque was okay for me though.

Is the head warped?

 

[4gfun]

The number 10 stud on my 1G was also sticking up a bit. Couldnt get it to go down to match the height of the others. Could have been a small pool of oil or something there. Torque was okay for me though.

Is the head warped?

Very interesting on number 10! I didn't have any height issues that I am aware of...just a bit more resistance when attempting to tighten by hand. I'd day that if I could have gripped it with 2-3 hands, I wouldn't need to have used the allen key (just to give you an idea of how close of far I was to being able to tighten by hand). The old head wasn't warped by my measurements, but BogusSVO sold me a new head which I am using that he rebuilt and resurfaced since there was a fire ring impression in the head.

It really does seem like I can loosen the nuts and start the process over 5 times from what I am reading. In fact, searching around on other non DSM forums it looks like waiting a few days to do it is actually beneficial so long as the engine hasn't been started or seen any coolant/oil.

I might just go that route if you all approve.

 

[renovatdkitchen]

I'd try retorquing once more. Maybe go in slightly smaller increments. My lug nuts, when unevenly torqued will do the same thing, seem to self tighten.

If its a BogusSVO head, I would say its good as far as being level.

When I installed my ARP's, I used an allen key, but didn't apply any actual force. Try looking down into the head from above. Take a look at the nut on #10 and see if its gripping the stud at the same height as the others.
Any chance the block surface is warped?

You can reuse the headgasket AS LONG AS the engine has NOT been started. The gasket melts a little into place once the engine is first started.

 

[91-GS]

You can reuse the headgasket AS LONG AS the engine has NOT been started. The gasket melts a little into place once the engine is first started.

Used to think that too until one started leaking around all four cylinders. That was a composite one though, others might be different.

 

[4gfun]

I'd try retorquing once more. Maybe go in slightly smaller increments. My lug nuts, when unevenly torqued will do the same thing, seem to self tighten.

If its a BogusSVO head, I would say its good as far as being level.

When I installed my ARP's, I used an allen key, but didn't apply any actual force. Try looking down into the head from above. Take a look at the nut on #10 and see if its gripping the stud at the same height as the others.
Any chance the block surface is warped?

You can reuse the headgasket AS LONG AS the engine has NOT been started. The gasket melts a little into place once the engine is first started.

Well I knew there is something that I failed to do. I never bothered to check and see if the block surface was warped using the method that BogusSVO provided. Man!

I actually went through the process of using his link to do a backyard block cleanup, but didn't even check to see if the block was warped. Wow!

Well the head was not initially warped to any real degree besides the fire ring situation that I mentioned above, so I'd doubt the block would be warped.

What makes you think the block might be warped? You have me wondering now.

I'll try your suggestions otherwise.

Thanks

 

[4gfun]

Used to think that too until one started leaking around all four cylinders. That was a composite one though, others might be different.

Could you expand on your experience please? I don't think that he meant reusing a head gasket in a true context e.g. pulling the head and reusing it. I think he meant just loosening the nuts and then retorquing. I wouldn't consider that reusing a head gasket. I'd like to hear your experience though.

Thanks

 

[91-GS]

Could you expand on your experience please? I don't think that he meant reusing a head gasket in a true context e.g. pulling the head and reusing it. I think he meant just loosening the nuts and then retorquing. I wouldn't consider that reusing a head gasket. I'd like to hear your experience though.

Thanks

Got to thinking about it now and maybe the head gasket was not in fact the problem, but the fact that they were bolts instead of studs meant that they stretched during first torquing and were not holding the head down correctly after second one.

Here's the story:
Put the head on and have torqued the bolts. Putting the valve cover on one of those little bolts fell into the spark plug hole (lesson: put plugs in before installing valve cover). Did not have a magnet on a stick, so decided to pull the head back off to retrieve the bolt. Re-torqued the head after that. About a week later noticed that car was going through antifreeze so started trying to find out what was wrong. Did a compression test and it showed 125 PSI on all four cylinders. Seemed a little low but the mechanic said that as long as they are all equal everything is ok. The coolant issue got so bad that the car won't go more than about ten miles before overheating. So after getting new head gasket and head bolts the head was pulled again. When the 'old' headgasket came out there were sign of leaking around all four fire rings. Replaced the headgasket and the car has been running strong ever since. Note: head and block were checked for warp/cracks both replacements, new bolts were used both times.

 

[renovatdkitchen]

When my brother reused the head gasket on his daily driver Subaru, he messed something up when bolting the head on. Called fel pro about reusing the head gasket and they said as long as the car was not started, it can be reused on the same engine.

Chances of the block being warped are very low as it is cast iron. But, unless someone else has a better idea, it only seems true to me that one of the surfaces is warped. As you tighten one side, the other side gets pulled upwards because it isn't straight, causing the increase in torque.

There are a couple causes of warpage (overheating, etc) or could even be that the block is slightly warped but the head is straight. If the head and block aren't resurfaced, their waviness matches. When you just resurface the head, the deflection of the two surfaces doesn't match. Kinda like puzzle pieces.

 

[4gfun]

Got to thinking about it now and maybe the head gasket was not in fact the problem, but the fact that they were bolts instead of studs meant that they stretched during first torquing and were not holding the head down correctly after second one.

Here's the story:
Put the head on and have torqued the bolts. Putting the valve cover on one of those little bolts fell into the spark plug hole (lesson: put plugs in before installing valve cover). Did not have a magnet on a stick, so decided to pull the head back off to retrieve the bolt. Re-torqued the head after that. About a week later noticed that car was going through antifreeze so started trying to find out what was wrong. Did a compression test and it showed 125 PSI on all four cylinders. Seemed a little low but the mechanic said that as long as they are all equal everything is ok. The coolant issue got so bad that the car won't go more than about ten miles before overheating. So after getting new head gasket and head bolts the head was pulled again. When the 'old' headgasket came out there were sign of leaking around all four fire rings. Replaced the headgasket and the car has been running strong ever since. Note: head and block were checked for warp/cracks both replacements, new bolts were used both times.

Thanks for sharing your story! Based on this. I'll NEVER take a chance in pulling the head for a minor mistake and keeping the same gasket again.

 

[4gfun]

When my brother reused the head gasket on his daily driver Subaru, he messed something up when bolting the head on. Called fel pro about reusing the head gasket and they said as long as the car was not started, it can be reused on the same engine.

Chances of the block being warped are very low as it is cast iron. But, unless someone else has a better idea, it only seems true to me that one of the surfaces is warped. As you tighten one side, the other side gets pulled upwards because it isn't straight, causing the increase in torque.

There are a couple causes of warpage (overheating, etc) or could even be that the block is slightly warped but the head is straight. If the head and block aren't resurfaced, their waviness matches. When you just resurface the head, the deflection of the two surfaces doesn't match. Kinda like puzzle pieces.

Your idea seems very sound and kind of scares me! I think that the only thing I have to rebut that idea is that the thread in number 10 is jacked up causing some of the overall weirdness. However, why is it jacked up, and why would my issue be on number 10 (cylinder #4 where the gasket failed anyways)??

I'd love to prove you wrong and you already know it! Even if you are right, I wonder if a composite gasket will be enough to make up the difference.

If the block is warped, I'd not be willing to go through the labor of pulling it and sending it off to a machine shop or buying a new one.

So I guess pulling the head to check it for trueness would be a waste of time as well.

I am going to do the torque sequence 5 times and report back.

 

[4gfun]

Well I went back and for some reason I believe that I tightened the studs in the wrong pattern! What I thought was "10" was actually "7".

I have problems with what seems to be dyslexia (not asking anyone to feel sorry for me just mentioning it so you understand what is going on). I am also a bit ADD, so I can forget whether or not I tightened the bolt right in the middle of it. I was called the absent minded professor when I was a kid.

2nd untorque/retorque.

I loosened things up and retightened them. This time, bolt number "9" acted the same way when it came time to torque to 90 ft. lbs after torqueing it to 60 ft. lbs.

Both 9 and 7 are still on the same end of the head though...extreme passenger side looking at the engine (cylinder 4 where the head gasket blew the first time) except the head gasket blew between the 3 and 4 fire ring.

3rd, 4th, 5th untorque/retorque

Went seamlessly. I concentrated very carefully on my torque sequence etc. All bolts torqued down equally these 3 times with no weird hangups at all.

New question, have I possibly warped the head or wrecked the head gasket by torqueing in the wrong order? My questions are getting to the point where they are almost impossible to answer...this always happens to me for some reason.

 

[jdezmit]

Did you regrease the stud and nut every time you retorqued? Need to try to maintain equal amounts of grease on all the nuts/stud/washers to maintain equal friction.