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Newbie Forum: Beginner/newbie/general DSM modification questions. First mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. Probationary Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.

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Old 10-18-2011, 01:20 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSimage View Post
The HTA35r is a whole different beast, its expensive as sin but man oh man can that baby spool. On the flip side FP makes a 82 wheel upgrade for the 3065, and you guessed it, it blows the 3582 out of the water in spool and similarly tot he 3065 vs 3582 it is a matter of spool vs top end albeit the HTA 3082 is more turbo than a majority could want.

In the scheme of things, most who say they want 600whp don't yet understand the concept of driving a vehicle with that kind of power... 600whp is usually the magic number to run single digits while having a consistent mid 10s vehicle. (yes there are many exceptions to that rule) That alone will keep you busy for a long while.





Its a great street turbo. On my 2.3 it makes you feel like you're driving a 16g. Step on the pedal and response is near instantaneous. My biggest appreciation for the turbo comes from inbetween shifts. TheDBB FP3065 has incredible boost recovery that rivaled earlier billet wheel counter parts.

May I ask your goals?
Huh... didn't see the rest of that but for now I guess I'm setting my goals "high" so that I have something to look forward to-ish. But 600 is kinda what I'm looking for, but as the "Newbie" forum says - "how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet." Not exactly what I'm looking for but would be nice. Although this 3082 I haven't seen it on FP or am I looking in the wrong spot?

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TSIimage, you're a tool and it shows.... Yeah, sorry most of us don't need 10 different turbos as we do it right the first time .



OP, watch who you take advice from or you'll end up having to buy things twice. If you did decide to go stroker you could get a larger turbo that will accomplish your goals and you won't have to own all of FP's line.

There is a huge difference between 571 and 600+hp and depending on who's dyno you were looking at can make a big difference. IE, a shop like STM or English Racing will be able to squeeze more out of any setup than the most of us.
I can understand that 571 and 600 are different but, if I fall short of 571 it's better than what I think I have now, even then I don't know what I have know other than a crappy setup that was done by someone who apparently didn't know what they were doing in the first place... *sigh* for now I guess the 3065 is a "starting point." Would I be wrong for saying so?


Last edited by Moonlight GSX; 10-18-2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping

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Old 10-18-2011, 01:29 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #22 (permalink)
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It really depends, are you going to build the car? If so, why not buy what you want the first time. Nothing sucks more than having to buy the same parts because you didn't get what you wanted the first time.

I do highly recommend going stroker, I know I'll never go back. My FPRed flows like a dream and is very streetable. There are a couple things I'll be changing either this or next winter but for the most part I'm happy with everything in the car which is a plus.


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Old 10-18-2011, 01:36 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #23 (permalink)
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Lucas English was coming to town to tune some cars and I was going to let him "bless" my setup but am going bigger since the car will see less and less street time and more and more track.

Here is what Lucas did with a FP306. Mind you this is a very BASIC STREET CAR higher comp but FP2 cams, basic JMF intake manifolds, wallys etc.... Another reason why I laugh so much at the idea that you need a tin can tube chassis to reach your goals. Some good fuel and a good tune and you can have some fun. Both turbos will require this regardless-

Rob Hansons English Racing built 619WHP FP3065 1g - YouTube

V8 Smoking Eclipse GSX 9.6@144 Emeraldes Towing sponsered Forced Performance FP3065 Turbo - YouTube

It makes more power now but must say its quite impressive.


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Old 10-18-2011, 01:37 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #24 (permalink)
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Moonlight,
Take the advise given by everyone in here and make a decision based on the data, not the bickering. Is your build based on the magic 600 whp goal or are you looking for an area under the curve build?

Your turbo decision is going to based on that very question, from the experiences that are being posted it seems to be a struggle between making 600 whp and actually having an area under the curve. I think you will find that an area under the curve build will be your best bet if you are a street/strip guy. Avoid trying to "hit" a certain hp unless that is your entire goal. Focus more on area under the curve and a rough hp number if you want a good street car.

Everyone is going to have an opinion, ultimately, it is going to come down to what YOU want out of the car. As for the different turbo combos, do you understand the naming schemes Garrett uses for their turbos / how FP renames them? You may consider looking at TurboByGarrett.com - GT Basics / Nomenclature and then reading about the individual turbos FP produces.

It is also worthy of note that FP can really mix and match a lot of different setups if you have the money, for example: I am considering a FP 3065 but I would like to go for an HTA variant for more spool, they offer an HTA upgrade for the garrett 30xx turbos as well as the garrett 35xx, its only a upgrade to the inducer of your turbo, no change to the exducer. If you know the naming scheme of the garrett family, you can make your decisions based on the science, and not the he said she said. Look at the dynos and look for peoples questions / answers regaurding different combinations.

With all that said, carry on gentlemen, I only mean to try and help with this discussion, besides, Im only rocking an Evo 3 16g...


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Old 10-18-2011, 01:54 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phunny View Post
TSIimage, guess you know it all no matter what others have been saying that run these turbos.... Yeah, sorry most of us don't need 10 different turbos as we do it right the first time .

I think you should counter all your "information" with at least donating to the site... Someone should get paid for watching you.
No most don't go through different turbos because they CAN'T.. I've ran the 3582 we are talking about FIRST and CURRENTLY run the 3065 yet I said the 3065 is the better turbo so if by doing it right the first that would mean I should have gotten the 3065 to begin with by your own logic?

You need to go play in the sand box. My experience with other turbos and various motor setups mean I have a first hand ability to compare and contrast a 2.0 vs a 2.3 vs a 2.1 v a 2.4 etc etc. Same with turbos.

Its funny you should talk about adding something to the site.. Let me know when you even have the experience to do so.



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OP, watch who you take advice from or you'll end up having to buy things twice. If you did decide to go stroker you could get a larger turbo that will accomplish your goals and you won't have to own all of FP's line.

There is a huge difference between 571 and 600+hp and depending on who's dyno you were looking at can make a big difference. IE, a shop like STM or English Racing will be able to squeeze more out of any setup than the most of us.
You don't get it. The car is a street car first and foremost. That is more important than a random dyno number... You can slap a 600whp turbo on a different dyno and it only make 530whp. Dynos are for tuning. When people have goals they realistically should evolve around track times and mannerisms. OP wants 600whp, ok great, I can think of a few turbos better than a 3582 or a 3065 at accomplishing that for less money... So I have to use my brain and dig further when the OP says-



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlight GSX View Post
So, all in all, the 3065 IS capable of getting to 600hp (I'd hope so with 65 lb/min) and is tunable to kick in at around 3k-4.5k (full boost at 4.5k)? But wouldn't that be at the upper 75% use of the turbo or no? It's intentions will be for street mostly, so it would seem the 3065 would be the better choice. As for the spool time, is it different because of the blade design?

So obviously street mannerisms and spool exceed the want of a 6--whp dyno slip at the same time the term 600hp opposed simply to whp then makes the 3065 the OBVIOUS winner. 600hp no sweat and great spool and street fun is what makes the turbo what it is.

If the OP listened to you phunny, after all these years he still wouldn't have accomplished anything or done anything worth while...

So you can take the advice of me, who has ran the 2 turbos mentioned as well as Jusmx141 who is the residential appointed turbo guru. OR Doug Phunny over there, the bench racing extraordinaire. I'm not trying to make it a pissing match but if he feels the need to challenge everything I say, so beit. I get it, you're in it too deep and gotta keep digging, I understand. Pride is a mofo/


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Old 10-18-2011, 09:39 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #26 (permalink)
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As a man of experimental tendencies, I'm going to try the 3065 regardless and if it doesn't suit me or if I change my mind to run the 3582 later on because I want to do nothing but track then so be it. You all put forth logical information, I mean it kinda makes sense to me for the most part, but as I'm starting to get deep into the "knowledge" of what is a true DSMer I'm going to have to make decisions from the various things I get from everyone. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, if TSimage says the 3065 is great for street I'm going to try it and see what happens. But on the flipside I'm not going to disregard anyone else either - if I have or have not made a mistake in my decision it's on my account and no one else right?

TSimage - you have my trust. If what you are saying is correct then kudos. If not then it's whatever. I'm willing to learn and burn if I have to.

Everyone else, again, thanks for the info! But I have made the decision to try the 3065 and see what I get if it's not what I want then it's not what I want and I'll have to try something else. To each their own right? That's the way I see it, not everyone drives the same either. You could build the same car to have the same exact equipment and have it measured to .00001 of the specs and still have a variances between the two drivers, thus making everyone have their own "unique" build. My belief... heh lol.

Sorry to have you all arguing... that wasn't my intension at all.

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Old 10-18-2011, 10:01 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #27 (permalink)
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Definitely wasn't much of an argument. If your intentions are to primarily use this vehicle on the street then the 3065 was specifically designed for that. The turbos are literally cousins, same compressor but what varies are the turbines and thus the 3065 has a lwoer power band range that allows the turbo to be increasingly responsive on the street mean while the 3582 is built for track duty and top end naturally sacrificing down low.

If ever you decide that you want more top end, you wont even need to spend the out outrageous amount of money it'll take to move to a T3 3582 but instead you can send your 3065 into FP and they can convert it to an HTA3082 which will out spool the 3065 and make more power than the 3582 all on the FP bolt on housing with nothing else needed to change.

Its a win win situation. The FP3065 allows the setup to grow with you where as you will have to bare the lack luster street performance of the 3582 while you "wait" definitely not the wise path to take. Thats besides the fact you can put together an FP3065 setup for a lot cheaper than a T3 3582. That money can go into other areas of the car such as comfort or performance. The difference between a much more stout engine build or trans upgrade.

You don't even have to take my word for it. A simple search of any DSM, Evo, GVR4 or similar boards will all show similar insight.


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Old 10-18-2011, 10:05 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #28 (permalink)
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The one gripe that many guys have with the 3065 is it's smallish 30R turbine...they seem to feel the turbine is too much of a restriction to allow the 35R compressor to breathe at it's potential, but apparently FP has remedied this with a very well-designed DSM bolt-on turbine housing. I've seen info which proves the FP DSM bolt-on housing can outflow a .63 a/r Garrett T3 turbine housing when comparing turbos with the same turbine wheel, and that is damn impressive. The FP 3065's turbine housing is so well-designed that it makes up for airflow lost due through a small turbine wheel.

If you're a stroker and shopping for a FP turbo, I'd probably choose the DSM82 and never look back. Strokers generally contain a great deal of extra exhaust energy that the 30R turbine may not be able to handle at boost levels needed to make the 35R compressor work properly no matter what turbine housing is on the turbo, especially strokers with high compression. It's just not worth finding out the hard way, being dissatisfied, and attempting to sell a used ball-bearing turbo at a great loss just to get what you probably should have bought in the first place.

On a 2.0, especially one that is a relatively new build, you're going to be fine with the 3065. This will allow you to grow into your goal as you're not going to make 600whp overnight, and you won't be disappointed with the spool while growing into your goal as you would with the 35R.



Choosing the right turbo is so difficult with all of the brands, sizes, and housing choices available today. You have to first get a horsepower number in mind, then think about how much boost and what type of fuel you're planning on running to meet your goal...this is going to determine which compressor is right for you. Next step would be to select which manifold and wastegate setup you want to run, then look at all the available turbos in the airflow categories you're shopping for- remembering that a good rule of thumb is 10 lb/min = 100hp on well-tuned DSM's. Compare price, fitment, spool, total airflow production, durability/reliability, and product support of all the models...then weigh the pros and cons of each model and make your selection based on the unit which stands out in a category that best-suits your requirement.


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Old 10-18-2011, 10:20 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #29 (permalink)
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^ Exactly, very good info from our resident turbo guru. Nothing else need be said.


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Old 10-18-2011, 11:24 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #30 (permalink)
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Thanks for the input Justin! And to answer your question from earlier TSimage, my goals for the car are about 500 HP on a 6 bolt 2.0 stage 2 build by MAP. Wiseco HD's on Mahle rods I believe. Some headwork and all other supporting mods is the plan.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:35 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmx141 View Post
The one gripe that many guys have with the 3065 is it's smallish 30R turbine...they seem to feel the turbine is too much of a restriction to allow the 35R compressor to breathe at it's potential, but apparently FP has remedied this with a very well-designed DSM bolt-on turbine housing. I've seen info which proves the FP DSM bolt-on housing can outflow a .63 a/r Garrett T3 turbine housing when comparing turbos with the same turbine wheel, and that is damn impressive. The FP 3065's turbine housing is so well-designed that it makes up for airflow lost due through a small turbine wheel.

If you're a stroker and shopping for a FP turbo, I'd probably choose the DSM82 and never look back. Strokers generally contain a great deal of extra exhaust energy that the 30R turbine may not be able to handle at boost levels needed to make the 35R compressor work properly no matter what turbine housing is on the turbo, especially strokers with high compression. It's just not worth finding out the hard way, being dissatisfied, and attempting to sell a used ball-bearing turbo at a great loss just to get what you probably should have bought in the first place.

On a 2.0, especially one that is a relatively new build, you're going to be fine with the 3065. This will allow you to grow into your goal as you're not going to make 600whp overnight, and you won't be disappointed with the spool while growing into your goal as you would with the 35R.



Choosing the right turbo is so difficult with all of the brands, sizes, and housing choices available today. You have to first get a horsepower number in mind, then think about how much boost and what type of fuel you're planning on running to meet your goal...this is going to determine which compressor is right for you. Next step would be to select which manifold and wastegate setup you want to run, then look at all the available turbos in the airflow categories you're shopping for- remembering that a good rule of thumb is 10 lb/min = 100hp on well-tuned DSM's. Compare price, fitment, spool, total airflow production, durability/reliability, and product support of all the models...then weigh the pros and cons of each model and make your selection based on the unit which stands out in a category that best-suits your requirement.

With this being said, being well knowledgeable in turbos, what would I be able to get out of the 3065 with pump gas (91-93 octane), and possibly a higher compression ratio (9:1)? Just a rough guess, as you and everyone else in this thread (you summing it all up for the most part) have given me a consolidated description of what I need to do to achieve my goals , to what you think I could get out of it?

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Old 10-19-2011, 06:22 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #32 (permalink)
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Here's a quote from another site in reference to the HTA version of both turbos;
I talked to Fp today, and I asked about an hta version of the 3065, and I was told that the dsm82hta has been dyno tested againts the 3065 and spooled faster, and made much more torque. I was told that in the dsm gt30 housing that I would be looking at about 4-4300rpm for full boost depending on what gear I am in. Also Fp mentioned that if I were to be racing a 3065 car and I had the 3582hta that I would dominate, even at the same boost levels. As of now, I think that Fp talked me into getting the DSM82hta over the DSM76hta. I really look forward to getting this turbo and also at some point swithcing over to e85 to really open the can of worms with the 3582!


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Old 10-19-2011, 10:13 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #33 (permalink)
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So what about the fp 3052 is that a whole other can of worms?


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Old 10-19-2011, 10:28 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #34 (permalink)
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I was also wondering about the 3052. Anyone know much about it?
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:34 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #35 (permalink)
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the fp 3052 flows 52 lbs/min

with that being said its a completely different can of worms

although its said to be a GREAT pump gas turbo

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Old 10-19-2011, 10:54 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlight GSX View Post
With this being said, being well knowledgeable in turbos, what would I be able to get out of the 3065 with pump gas (91-93 octane), and possibly a higher compression ratio (9:1)? Just a rough guess, as you and everyone else in this thread (you summing it all up for the most part) have given me a consolidated description of what I need to do to achieve my goals , to what you think I could get out of it?
The 9.0:1 compression is going to generate a lot of heat because of the combustion energy produced- with pump gas you're going to have a tough time fighting knock unless you look into meth injection. You may run into incurable knock with as little as 22-25psi.

The 30R turbine of the FP3065 is only going to add backpressure, keeping more heat in the manifold and raising the chance of getting knock even more. If you really want to push a high-compression pump gas DSM, you need a turbo with a large turbine wheel to allow the engine to breathe. In steps the 35R variants.
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So what about the fp 3052 is that a whole other can of worms?
Off-the shelf GT3076R with FP's DSM bolt-on turbine housing. Quicker spool, less airflow than the 3065.


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Old 10-19-2011, 11:16 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #37 (permalink)
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I bet the 3052 would make a very quick spooling 500hp street turbo.


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Old 10-19-2011, 03:22 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmx141 View Post
The 9.0:1 compression is going to generate a lot of heat because of the combustion energy produced- with pump gas you're going to have a tough time fighting knock unless you look into meth injection. You may run into incurable knock with as little as 22-25psi.

The 30R turbine of the FP3065 is only going to add backpressure, keeping more heat in the manifold and raising the chance of getting knock even more. If you really want to push a high-compression pump gas DSM, you need a turbo with a large turbine wheel to allow the engine to breathe. In steps the 35R variants.

Off-the shelf GT3076R with FP's DSM bolt-on turbine housing. Quicker spool, less airflow than the 3065.
So stock compression, 8.5:1 (if I'm not mistaken), is the best way to rock this one. Good stuff. Much appreciated.

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Old 10-19-2011, 06:13 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #39 (permalink)
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I bet the 3052 would make a very quick spooling 500hp street turbo.
+1 lets see what Justin says.


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Old 10-19-2011, 08:58 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #40 (permalink)
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I currently have a 3065 and all I can say is that on gas/meth on modest 25psi on street is plenty to give most a serious ego crush. I havent had the opportunity to drive with race gas at the track but all I can say is that this thing spools instantly and the SOUND is phenomenal. It not only will throw you back into your seat but as I mentioned sounds incredible. Ive been in other bigger set ups but on street almost useless unless you intend to drive around with race gas to and from work. I use meth as a safety net more than anything. Def consider this turbo. You will not regret it.


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How many times have you been to the Shootout?
1 - 39.86%
167 Votes
2-5 - 41.77%
175 Votes
6-10 - 10.50%
44 Votes
11-15 - 3.10%
13 Votes
16-20 - 4.77%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 419
You may not vote on this poll.
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