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Newbie Forum: Beginner/newbie/general DSM modification questions. First mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. Probationary Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.

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Old 04-11-2010, 03:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
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eclipse revs up and down


so i bought a 1997 gst that already had a 6 bolt in it the guy lived down the street and was hurting for money so i got it pretty cheap. the car ran great until it started getting cold. if i go out and start my car for school it runs for about 5 minutes then it starts the rev up and down repeatly from about 1500 to about 2500 rpms it does not ever find a balance in rpm. it does this when the weather is cold reguardless if the engine is warmed up or not. ive replaced the iac and checked all of the vacuums numerous times and its been to 3 different shops. noone can figure it out. the car has had a few things removed such as egr and the cat. the cel is on but throws only misfires and the egr. i have spent so many hours on the computer trying to figure it out and can not. any advise would be greatly appearciated. thanks for taking time to read this i know its alot.

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Old 04-11-2010, 03:27 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
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Did you check the fast idle air valve? Sometimes they go bad. Since you're in Ohio I wouldn't suggest blocking it off as it helps with cold starts. Have you checked your BISS screw? The o-ring on the screw itself can harden and leak air into the system. I have idle surge right now as well and its because I tested my ISC motor and it failed on two of the coils.
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:55 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
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Definitely check your idle air control valve. My O ring went bad on my idle air control valve for my 93 eclipse, and it never finds a happy idle either. Wastes gas like a mother too.

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Old 04-11-2010, 03:59 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoyboi View Post
so i bought a 1997 gst that already had a 6 bolt in it the guy lived down the street and was hurting for money so i got it pretty cheap. the car ran great until it started getting cold. if i go out and start my car for school it runs for about 5 minutes then it starts the rev up and down repeatly from about 1500 to about 2500 rpms it does not ever find a balance in rpm. it does this when the weather is cold reguardless if the engine is warmed up or not. ive replaced the iac and checked all of the vacuums numerous times and its been to 3 different shops. noone can figure it out. the car has had a few things removed such as egr and the cat. the cel is on but throws only misfires and the egr. i have spent so many hours on the computer trying to figure it out and can not. any advise would be greatly appearciated. thanks for taking time to read this i know its alot.
In my experience, idle surge is most often caused by excess air bypassing the throttle plate. This can be from the BISS, FIAV, throttle body gaskets, throttle shaft o-rings, ISC o-ring, intake manifold gasket, craked vacuum lines, brake booster vacuum line, BOV vacuum line, EGR, etc.

If you can fully close the BISS without affecting the idle surge, you have a leak somewhere else. You should do a boost leak test to see whether or not you have one or more leaks in the air intake path.

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Old 04-11-2010, 04:34 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
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i agree with the idle air control valve!
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Old 04-11-2010, 05:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
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wow guys thanks alot it has only been a few hours since i posted this and already have responses. i will check these ideas out and let you know if they work thanks a lot guys
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Old 04-11-2010, 05:10 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
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What year car did the 6-bolt engine come out of? I recently replaced my '90 ISC with one purchased from www.DSMISC.com thinking that the newer style ISC was compatilble with my '90. It even says so on their website. Wrong! The connectors fit, but that's where the similarities end.

With the new ISC installed, my car would idle surge like crazy. I came to find out that the '90 ISC and newer style ISC's work in opposite directions. When commanded, the new ISC was actually opening when it should have been closing and closing when it should have been opening! You can imagine what this does to the idle!

I replaced the newer style ISC with a '90 ISC and the problem was solved. I'm pretty sure this is only the case with the '90 model ISC, so if you have a different year engine, this probably doesn't apply to you. Good luck.

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Old 04-11-2010, 06:12 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
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What year car did the 6-bolt engine come out of? I recently replaced my '90 ISC with one purchased from www.DSMISC.com thinking that the newer style ISC was compatilble with my '90. It even says so on their website. Wrong! The connectors fit, but that's where the similarities end.

With the new ISC installed, my car would idle surge like crazy. I came to find out that the '90 ISC and newer style ISC's work in opposite directions. When commanded, the new ISC was actually opening when it should have been closing and closing when it should have been opening! You can imagine what this does to the idle!

I replaced the newer style ISC with a '90 ISC and the problem was solved. I'm pretty sure this is only the case with the '90 model ISC, so if you have a different year engine, this probably doesn't apply to you. Good luck.
i dont actually know what year the 6 bolt is from but i am using the iac from the 97 is that a problem
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Old 04-11-2010, 06:48 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
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My 1g has a Idle switch on the throttle body, I believe it was green? wire from memory, make sure that is making contact and the wire is good. I had the same problem ended up being the ISC , not the wire but my buddy had the same problem his ended up being a bad connection to the switch. it's embarassing at stop lights, and let me guess it comes and goes not constant right? Check out VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions under intake idle surge FAQ scroll to the bottom it tells you how to test your ISC with a voltmeter

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Old 04-11-2010, 06:51 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
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i dont actually know what year the 6 bolt is from but i am using the iac from the 97 is that a problem
It's only a problem if the ISC is from a '90. Does your ISC have a pigtail (wires) with a connector at the end? That would be from a '90

The other years had no pigatail, only the connector moulded into the ISC body. Which do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by studs View Post
My 1g has a Idle switch on the throttle body, I believe it was green? wire from memory, make sure that is making contact and the wire is good. I had the same problem ended up being the ISC , not the wire but my buddy had the same problem his ended up being a bad connection to the switch. it's embarassing at stop lights, and let me guess it comes and goes not constant right? Check out VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions under intake idle surge FAQ scroll to the bottom it tells you how to test your ISC with a voltmeter
In my case, disconnecting the idle position switch made the situation better. The engine would rev up high to about 1500 as is did during the idle surge, but it stayed constant and didn't surge up and down. It was still annoying, but definitely more tolerable than the surge.

Last edited by Demon33; 04-11-2010 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping

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Old 04-11-2010, 07:33 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
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I came to find out that the '90 ISC and newer style ISC's work in opposite directions. When commanded, the new ISC was actually opening when it should have been closing and closing when it should have been opening! You can imagine what this does to the idle!
That sounds like a wiring error. Since the 90 ECUs and 91+ ECUs both work when connected to the same car and since the ISC is a stepper not an electric motor it moves in and out just depending on the order you pulse the coils. If you get the coils wired wrong then the pintle will do nothing or move in the wrong direction.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:02 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
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That sounds like a wiring error. Since the 90 ECUs and 91+ ECUs both work when connected to the same car and since the ISC is a stepper not an electric motor it moves in and out just depending on the order you pulse the coils. If you get the coils wired wrong then the pintle will do nothing or move in the wrong direction.
It's not a wiring error. When I put the '90 ISC back in (using the newly extended wires), it worked perfectly. They both worked perfectly, just in opposite directions. I have verified this with another member on the "Talk" forum who experienced the exact same thing I did- his '90 ISC also moved in the opposite direction of the later version ISC he was trying to install.

I tracked the expected/commanded movement of the ISC using my logger and sure enough, with the new ISC, a zero commanded position was actually fully open (increased idle speed). On the '90 ISC, a zero connanded position was fully closed (decreased idle speed).

The only reason I even changed the '90 out was because I thought it was causing my idle surge when in fact, the surge was being caused by a leak elsewhere.

Not saying I don't make mistakes, but I'm an engineer and have many years experience with wiring and a soldering gun. I checked, double-checked, and tripple-checked my wiring before connecting the new ISC. I've been successfully using the '90 ISC for nearly a year without touching/changing the wires I had to extend in order to allow the connector to reach the new (non '90) ISC. With no vacuum leaks, my idle is rock-solid using my 20-year-old ISC.

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Old 04-11-2010, 08:16 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
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so my TB is from a 91 and the isc i am using is for a 97. i bought a brand new one along with the o-ring a while back because that was my first guess to what it was so am i good there?
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:41 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
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It's not a wiring error. When I put the '90 ISC back in (using the newly extended wires), it worked perfectly. They both worked perfectly, just in opposite directions. I have verified this with another member on the "Talk" forum who experienced the exact same thing I did- his '90 ISC also moved in the opposite direction of the later version ISC he was trying to install.
Perhaps it's a documentation error but on the 90 ISC the white and black wires are swapped when compared to the 91+ ISC's. So instead of pin 67 from the ECU going to pin 4 on the 90 ISC it goes to pin 6 on the 91+ ISC and ECU pin 68 goes to ISC pin 6 on a 90 but to pin 4 on a 91+ ISC. If it's not a typo in the FSM then it would cause the 91+ ISC when connected to your wiring to have a set of coils swapped.

Putting a 91+ ECU in a 90 car with a 90 ISC doesn't cause the ISC to run in the reverse directions and a 90 ECU in a 91 car with a 91 ISC also doesn't I have to guess it's not a documentation error but the change in the wiring that wasn't accounted for.

It may be an invalid conclusion but I don't have a 90 ISC here to verify it and see if perhaps the pigtail from the ISC doesn't wind up swapping the phasing back.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:54 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
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Perhaps it's a documentation error but on the 90 ISC the white and black wires are swapped when compared to the 91+ ISC's. So instead of pin 67 from the ECU going to pin 4 on the 90 ISC it goes to pin 6 on the 91+ ISC and ECU pin 68 goes to ISC pin 6 on a 90 but to pin 4 on a 91+ ISC. If it's not a typo in the FSM then it would cause the 91+ ISC when connected to your wiring to have a set of coils swapped.

Putting a 91+ ECU in a 90 car with a 90 ISC doesn't cause the ISC to run in the reverse directions and a 90 ECU in a 91 car with a 91 ISC also doesn't I have to guess it's not a documentation error but the change in the wiring that wasn't accounted for.

It may be an invalid conclusion but I don't have a 90 ISC here to verify it.
Good info, Steve. I didn't swap any pins or wires when I changed ISC's. It sure would explain the reversed movement. I simply went by the information from www.DSMISC.com stating that the two ISC's were identical, save for the pigtail of the '90 and the need to extend the '90 wiring harness to reach the new ISC.

Based on what you said, and if the documentation is correct, if I swap pins 67 and 68 I should be able to use the '91+ ISC in my '90? I'll keep this in mind for now. My old '90 ISC is still up and running. I'll keep the newer '91+ ISC as a spare and swap the pins as needed.

To the OP. Since you have a '91 TB and a '97 ISC, I'm assuming you also have a 91+ ECU. If that's the case, you should be good in the ISC department. You should look for leaks elsewhere.

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Old 04-11-2010, 09:08 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
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hoyboi, I use one of the black ISC's on my 1G. It works fine in a 91 TB but I'm on my second TB. The first one I messed up by aggressively cleaning the throttle butterfly when I changed the shaft seals. I later discovered that the factory uses a sealant for final fitting of the plate to the bore so it doesn't leak too much air when closed. That's how little additional air it can take to make the difference between surging and not.

Do you have the coolant lines to the throttle hooked up? If they are and there is no difference cold or hot to the idle the FIAV on that TB may be not functioning.

Demon33 posted in #4 a pretty complete list of things that can leak additional air past the butterfly and cause surging. Some are external leaks and some are internal ones that won't show up doing a standard boost leak test.
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:23 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
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i really appreciate all the fast responses but let me ask one more question i only have these surges when the weather is cold so i can only attempt to diagnose this problem early in the morning because if the weather is above about 70 it will not act and it will run perfect does that help explain it better thanks again guys
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