Evo VIII Cams in DSM? [Merged 5-9] 8 cam

SpawnedX · 11-22-2009, 06:20 PM

Most of all vehicles sold in the US run clockwise!

Bunch of idiots, who are so quick to tell you what cannot be done on this forum. I am so sick of reading all these so-called experts with no information.

Here is a 2.4L with an Evo 8 head:
YouTube - nastiest galant ever...UNTUNED first startup
See the motor spins towards the front of the car? Ever once pay attention to your own car? The motor spins towards the back of the car.

So here is some KidsPix style images for those with no imagination:

So there you have it, no amount of arguments will amount to anything that makes that incorrect.

Since Evo's constantly use 4G64 from 2G DSMs, that means that the bores have to be equally spaced and the decks of the blocks symmetrical in order to work. Which means the spaces between valves must be equal even in reverse to line up with the bores properly, and since each set of lobes is set 90* difference from the next set, that means the camshafts have to be identical, minus the notches and cam gear noses.

Which means notch the intake cam and mark your new timing marks and bam they work.

delta448 · 11-23-2009, 06:16 AM

Yes the engines spin in the same direction, this is well known, and it also leads to the logic that this swap is indeed possible.

You may have neglected however, that both DSM and Evo 4+ have the exhaust cam towards the front of the car, which means the cams are not acting on the rockers in the same manner if you change which one goes in which side of the head. Valve timing is the problem to be solved.

This is what 94awdcoupe was referring to in post 180. The rockers do not sit exactly in line with the cams and deck, they sit in line with the cams and valves. The difference in angle between valve stem and deck on a DSM head versus the different (and reversed direction) angle on the Evo for the same cam means a different portion of the cam lobe will be in contact with the rocker when the timing is set the same.

The way to make this work is simple enough, use a degree wheel and dial indicator to degree each cam first on the Evo engine and then swap them into a DSM and degree the cams so they match the Evo specs, then just remark the cam gears for the new correct timing marks. I'm truly surprised nobody has posted a video of an engine running this cam swap yet. The machining is fairly simple.

goodbuds · 11-23-2009, 09:10 AM

they have the same part number from eclipse on up to evo 8. look at hks page you will see. i might be wrong but i looked in to this.

SpawnedX · 11-23-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

This is what 94awdcoupe was referring to in post 180. The rockers do not sit exactly in line with the cams and deck, they sit in line with the cams and valves. The difference in angle between valve stem and deck on a DSM head versus the different (and reversed direction) angle on the Evo for the same cam means a different portion of the cam lobe will be in contact with the rocker when the timing is set the same.

Incorrect, same side of the lobe makes contact with the rocker, grab a camshaft mark a lobe with something, spin it clockwise both in Evo orientation and then flip it like you needed to put it in a DSM and spin it, you will see the lobe side that touches the rocker to open the valve and then the lobe side as it closes the valve is the same.

The mistake people keep making is they don't understand what mirrored means.

goodbuds · 11-23-2009, 11:35 AM

werd, so if i buy a set i must make sure they are for a 1st gen eclipse.. thx

delta448 · 11-23-2009, 11:42 AM

You misunderstood my post.
I agree with your reply though.

The point I was trying to make is not about the side of the lobe that makes contact, but where the timing marks are when the cam is correctly timed. Visual aid forthcoming... bear with me please.

In the drawing on the left a cam is installed and the valve is on it's way back to closed position. Now the same cam is timed the same but placed in the other head, with different valve and rocker geometry. Now the valve is still opening with the cam timed the same. That's why lift and angle need to be corrected by degreeing the cam if it is swapped. That's all I was saying.

Name: cam.JPG
Views: 1168
Size: 10.2 KB

Of course I assume you're using the exhaust cam as an exhaust cam and intake cam as an intake cam on both heads.

SpawnedX · 11-23-2009, 01:25 PM

Any advice on how to resolve that if you don't have access to an Evo head?

Eclipsed · 11-23-2009, 01:25 PM

need to set them up to use the 1g/2g cam sensor and make new timing marks and they will work. as long as you use the intake cam on the intake side and the exhaust cam on the exhaust side.

personally i dont think it is worth it unless you have the parts laying around and it will be no cost to you.

delta448 · 11-23-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpawnedX

Any advice on how to resolve that if you don't have access to an Evo head?

All you really need are the cam specs as factory installed in the Evo.

Once you have the centerlines (or the crank angle for 0.050" open/close) on both cams, all you need is a degree wheel, dial indicator and a solid or static height HLA to measure and adjust valve movement directly.

dsm-onster · 11-23-2009, 01:48 PM

Delta regrinds for $180. 264 or 272

But still this is a cool idea. Some one please just do this start the car and get some before after logs or track runs so this will be done

fstfcs · 11-23-2009, 01:59 PM

^^^ Regrinds what?

dsm-onster · 11-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Delta regrinds. 264 or 272; your choice. . . What am I saying that's confusing?

delta448 · 11-23-2009, 03:03 PM

Matt, it seems there are some who haven't heard of the Delta cams yet.

talonz27 · 04-03-2010, 10:06 AM

I have put some evo cams in my 97 talon using the evo cam gears. I have not been able to confirm using the evo cam gears but it seems it is easier to use the evo cam gears over the dsm gears. The evo cam gears only have the timing marks on the inside of the gears when used on the evo head, but when installed on the dsm head it seems that all you would need to do to time it is put the cam marks on the outside instead of the inside. Has anyone else tried to use the evo cam gears when using the evo cams in a dsm?

delta448 · 04-03-2010, 09:20 PM

It's not that simple. Take a look at this illustration I modified from the one above.
Name: camevodsm.PNG
Views: 1102
Size: 18.7 KB

See how there's a difference in the positioning between the cam and rocker? That difference changes the valve timing. With the cams aligned in the Evo the valve will begin moving at a different angle of cam rotation. In the head on the left the cam will be closing the valve as it rotates further, on the right it will open further. Notice that turning the cam 180 degrees will position it like the second cam lobe in the right side of the drawing. This is still not the same valve timing as the cam on the left.

Doesn't anyone use a degree wheel these days?

TurboFritz · 10-08-2010, 02:09 AM

so this is a long thread that still never gave an answer, the one guy that was tryin never finished???

xi Talon ix · 10-08-2010, 02:45 AM

I'm the guy that tried it. Actually, I did finish it but it's not worth the effort. I was 17 years old and everybody was telling me that it can't be done. To me that was just motivation to keep going with the little project. I did all the measuring and fitting in my bedroom by myself. The Evo 8 cams WILL fit into a DSM..but the gains to work required ratio just aren't worth the hassle. It's pretty much an "I told you so" mod. Go buy yourself a nice set of regrinds instead.

Zex4g63 · 10-08-2010, 05:23 AM

Mine have been in the car for year. 11,000 miles and counting.

slipstream808 · 10-08-2010, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xi Talon ix

I'm the guy that tried it. Actually, I did finish it but it's not worth the effort. I was 17 years old and everybody was telling me that it can't be done. To me that was just motivation to keep going with the little project. I did all the measuring and fitting in my bedroom by myself. The Evo 8 cams WILL fit into a DSM..but the gains to work required ratio just aren't worth the hassle. It's pretty much an "I told you so" mod. Go buy yourself a nice set of regrinds instead.

HA! That was probably the flatest-out, straight-up response I've heard in a long time!

Thanks for the honesty!

Oh and I drive through Hughesville once a week!

TSIBOB · 03-24-2011, 09:37 AM

I no they fit in me being a dummy and wanting to no if they work i put them in and in time and the car seemed like it was starting up back words... There was exhaust coming outta the intake mani and was suckin threw the exhaust

Exxxel · 08-29-2011, 04:59 AM

This is.....Italian job:

Just machined the new slit on the bottom of E8 exhaust (used as intake) cam.
now the CAS sensing plate is in the correct position.

NOTE THAT IS NOT 90° but closer

For comparision with the OEM 2g cam:

Next step, timing....dowel pins are 90 degree off... so I need to remark the gears for the correct timing.

Revmoto · 08-29-2011, 11:09 PM

If this is true then us evo guys basically give our stock cams away for free as they serve us only as paper weights.

Exxxel · 09-05-2011, 03:57 AM

Ok....
Just checked (with old stuff, tensioner, idler etc) the new timing marks, using a pair of Adjustable Cam pulleys (double dowel pin hole EVO/DSM).
All seems to be in order, lobes are aligned in position, so eventually I can adjust by rotating the gear crown.
The slit on the back of the intake cam is perfectly aligned with the mark, allowing to use the stock 2g 97-99 CAS.

Now I can put on all the new parts.

Finally, we can say (in Mythbusters way):
-Evo 8 cams on 2g head - CONFIRMED

H82lose91 · 09-05-2011, 05:05 AM

Explain while the dowel pins at the gears are not in the same orientation.

daplatano91 · 09-05-2011, 05:30 AM

So what would have to be done to our head to get the evo9 mivec cams to work =]

Exxxel · 09-05-2011, 08:29 AM

Ok, here is some explain...

First important thing to remember:
- Intake Evo 8 cam IS USED as Exhaust cam for 2g
- Exhaust Evo 8 cam IS USED as Intake cam for 2g

Diagrams below are referred to both intake & exhaust cams with lobes aligned at TDC (dowel pins UP) for 2g, next there are the positions assumed by the Evo8 dowels.

This is the diagram (powered by paint

) of the front side:

CAS side:

Sorry, but for the Evo 9 MIVEC system i do not have idea..

xi Talon ix · 09-05-2011, 08:35 AM

Wow I can't believe people are still attempting this. ATTENTION DSMers!! Just buy a damn set of regrinds. The gains that you get from swapping stock cams to Evolution cams is worthless. You can hardly tell the difference. Spend the time you would trying to get them to work at your job to make some extra money to buy some regrinds.

Exxxel · 09-05-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xi Talon ix

Wow I can't believe people are still attempting this. ATTENTION DSMers!! Just buy a damn set of regrinds. The gains that you get from swapping stock cams to Evolution cams is worthless. You can hardly tell the difference. Spend the time you would trying to get them to work at your job to make some extra money to buy some regrinds.

I'm doing this, because I bought a RVR engine from US... plus evo8's are free and my teammate owns a machine shop!

Exxxel · 09-15-2011, 01:00 PM

Timing done!

Sirnixalot · 11-24-2011, 12:06 AM

So this can be done either way?

Using the Evo exhaust cam as an exhaust cam and the Evo intake cam as an intake cam (machining the CAS slot) as well as swapping them around?

I am only interested in swapping in an Evo 8 280* exhaust cam to replace my 264* Evo 3 exhaust cam and just want to make sure they drop in and will work (i understand the issue of the ramp profile etc)