Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource on the web



















Login



Go Back   DSMtuners > DSM Forums > General > Newbie Forum > Maintenance & Repairs
Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource
You are browsing the site as a GUEST. Please login (or register) and gain the ability to post on our site and interact with other DSMers. You also get to browse the site with fewer advertisements. It is FREE to join!

Maintenance & Repairs: Oil choices, timing belt, setting timing, CV boot replacement, alternator servicing, fuse/relay checks, and other basic maintenance, repair and diagnosis discussions. Probationary Members can post here.

Reply
 
LinkBack   Thread Tools
Old 01-12-2010, 04:19 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown

Lots of air coming from the oil cap


This is a bit of an extension on to my post about my low compression numbers...

I had the car warm and at idle this morning and I pulled off my oil cap and noticed a very good amount of air was being blown out of it. Not just a little, a lot.

It's not blow-by, my rings are fine... And it doesn't smoke unless I'm hard on the boost, and even then, it only smokes a tiny, tiny amount and not all the time. I couldn't even notice it until I had someone drive the car in front of me as I followed, so I'm guessing it's not the exhaust valves...

Could it be the intake valve seats? Possibly even the seals or stems? It seems like I've narrowed it down to that but I don't want to perform any unnecessary work since I'm on a budget for the next month. Maybe the big web cams weren't ground properly?

And yes, I have a new OEM PCV valve installed...


mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 04:34 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
Banned Member
 

ramsack's Avatar
Car: Bicycle
Registered: Dec 2007
Tech Posts: 2,196
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: ramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthyramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to ramsack
yeah i tried adding oil once with the car on and it just sprayed everywhere. it is normal. there are pulses of air from the pistons going up and down.
Visit ramsack's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 04:48 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
How is your turbo?

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 04:57 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
Banned Member
 

ramsack's Avatar
Car: Bicycle
Registered: Dec 2007
Tech Posts: 2,196
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: ramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthyramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to ramsack
why would the turbo be blowing air into the valve cover?
Visit ramsack's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:01 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
If your seals are bad you will blow air into the block which makes it to the head and inturn blows air out of the cap. Doing a boost leak test off of the turbo will help determine that. I'm stating that because you burn oil on boost and a little at idle.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiQUiDx View Post
How is your turbo?
It has some lateral play, I'd saw a few millimeters, but even if the seals were shot, I'm still pulling 10-12 hg/in vacuum at idle, so I don't see how it would be blowing a ton of air into the crankcase...

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
Banned Member
 

ramsack's Avatar
Car: Bicycle
Registered: Dec 2007
Tech Posts: 2,196
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: ramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthyramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to ramsack
if the seals in the turbo are bad then oil will be leaking out into the turbo, not air leaking in. and why would there be boost at idle? even on boost the air pressure isn't enough to overcome oil pressure. it is normal for oil to blow out of the cap like that. happened to me on my NON TURBO like i said about adding oil when running. it is actually blowing in and out very fast but you will only ever feel the outward pulses.
Visit ramsack's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:16 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benshooter View Post
It has some lateral play, I'd saw a few millimeters, but even if the seals were shot, I'm still pulling 10-12 hg/in vacuum at idle, so I don't see how it would be blowing a ton of air into the crankcase...
Well, at idle you should be around 15-20 inHg unless you are running a different grind cam. Updating your profile will help though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsack View Post
if the seals in the turbo are bad then oil will be leaking out into the turbo, not air leaking in. and why would there be boost at idle? even on boost the air pressure isn't enough to overcome oil pressure. it is normal for oil to blow out of the cap like that. happened to me on my NON TURBO like i said about adding oil when running. it is actually blowing in and out very fast but you will only ever feel the outward pulses.
Maybe so, but I still said to do a boost leak test to test the seals anyway. I know that pressurized air should NOT pass the turbo shaft seals and if it does, it'll go into the block. You are correct though that air SHOULDN'T blow into the turbo but burning oil during boost is a symptom of turbo seals going out.

I've poured oil into my car while running and haven't had any blow out before. Both turbo and non turbo vehicles.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsack View Post
if the seals in the turbo are bad then oil will be leaking out into the turbo, not air leaking in. and why would there be boost at idle? even on boost the air pressure isn't enough to overcome oil pressure. it is normal for oil to blow out of the cap like that. happened to me on my NON TURBO like i said about adding oil when running. it is actually blowing in and out very fast but you will only ever feel the outward pulses.
I known that most engines will have some air coming out of the breather/oil cap but I've never felt an engine push out nearly this much air and I suspect it of having something to do with my 120-124-126-130 approximate compression numbers.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:25 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
Banned Member
 

ramsack's Avatar
Car: Bicycle
Registered: Dec 2007
Tech Posts: 2,196
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: ramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthyramsack is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to ramsack
ok, i agree with you on some points, but oil seals in the turbo would have nothing to do with his problem. that is a LOT of air to be leaking by them which is impossible. i would be looking at your rings then you have pretty crappy compression numbers.
Visit ramsack's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 05:26 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiQUiDx View Post
Well, at idle you should be around 15-20 inHg unless you are running a different grind cam. Updating your profile will help though.

Maybe so, but I still said to do a boost leak test to test the seals anyway. I know that pressurized air should NOT pass the turbo shaft seals and if it does, it'll go into the block. You are correct though that air SHOULDN'T blow into the turbo but burning oil during boost is a symptom of turbo seals going out.

I've poured oil into my car while running and haven't had any blow out before. Both turbo and non turbo vehicles.
When I bought the car the owner had written down on the mod list "Big Web Cams" and he said they're the common 272/260 set up. Notice I mentioned the big Web cams towards the end of my post Ive heard that these have some serious QC issues and if the lobes weren't properly machined on the cold side, it's possibly it may not be allowing the valves to close and fully seat. I'm wondering I anyone else has had similar issues with Web cams

Just ran a BLT for fun from the turbo inlet and capped off the UICP. Holds pretty damn well. Not perfect, but no bubbling sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsack View Post
ok, i agree with you on some points, but oil seals in the turbo would have nothing to do with his problem. that is a LOT of air to be leaking by them which is impossible. i would be looking at your rings then you have pretty crappy compression numbers.
It's HIGHLY unlikely that it's the rings. There was only a 1-3 psi improvement with the wet comp test and I used plenty of oil on top of that it has newer pistons and rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiQUiDx View Post
because you burn oil on boost and a little at idle.
one last thing (not trying to hound you) I didn't say I was burning any oil on idle. No smoke, exhaust smells "good".

Last edited by Benshooter; 01-12-2010 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 06:19 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

firefighter's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 77
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: firefighter is an unknown
Cam has nothing to do with blowby.Your compression seems a little low. By any chance does your dip stick work itself out? if so you might have excess blow by.This is caused by worn rings. What you might want to check is your plumbing to your intrcooler.You might have oil in all the piping as well as your intercooler. What causes this is the vent tube coming from the valve cover to the intake hose having to much crank pressure. You can solve this problem by installing a catch can off of the valve cover. Depending on how much oil you use it might not be a big problem BUT you wil eventually need a ring job and if thats the case you might as well freshen up the whole engine..
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 06:42 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter View Post
Cam has nothing to do with blowby.Your compression seems a little low. By any chance does your dip stick work itself out? if so you might have excess blow by.This is caused by worn rings. What you might want to check is your plumbing to your intrcooler.You might have oil in all the piping as well as your intercooler. What causes this is the vent tube coming from the valve cover to the intake hose having to much crank pressure. You can solve this problem by installing a catch can off of the valve cover. Depending on how much oil you use it might not be a big problem BUT you wil eventually need a ring job and if thats the case you might as well freshen up the whole engine..
I apreciatte everyones input and I'm not trying to be a dick but please read the entire thread. The rings are not the problem; this was deducted from a very minimal compression increase in the wet compression test.

I have a simple valve cover breather filter on it. There's usually a little oil soaked in it but it has never been so saturated that it dripped or anything. My dipstick doesn't pop out but I pinched the tube slightly so it fits snuggly. My LICP has a verrry thin coat of oil along the bottom circumference of it, nothing too serious.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 06:48 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

LiquidX's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 6,590
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 29
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to LiquidX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benshooter View Post
one last thing (not trying to hound you) I didn't say I was burning any oil on idle. No smoke, exhaust smells "good".
My mistake, I thought I read idle in there as well.

I did read the post entierly, that's why I edited one of my posts dealing with the idle. I stated that 10ish is low for stock but for aftermarket cams, depending on grind, is normal.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 07:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

firefighter's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 77
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: firefighter is an unknown
Lets think about it, you have what you believe is to much pressure coming out the top of your valve cover. There are several thing that could cause this increase in pressure 1. rings 2. turbo 3. ventilation system not working properly. Start off by checking the vent system. You indacate that the breather has a little oil on it .Replace it run the engine see if that changes it, if not check the turbo I don't think that has anything to do with it. If the seals are bad you'll have oil leaks either internal or external.If it's external you'll just have a messy turbo If its internal thats very bad,again if its on the intake side you could do damage to the engine, if on the exhaust side you could have a engine fire.Just in case check your oil lines coming off your turbo. The last thing is your rings.If you did a wet test and compression went up that means you have a little bit of blow by .That could be causing a increase in your oil pan.Causing excess pressure coming out of the oil cap.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 07:21 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

BIRDCLAWTSi's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2009
Tech Posts: 476
Photos: 11
Classifieds Rating: 11
Reputation: BIRDCLAWTSi is an unknown
do a leakdown test and see what is going on.that will put it to rest. or you can use a smoke machine. see where the smoke comes out.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 07:44 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

romeen's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2006
Tech Posts: 2,434
Classifieds Rating: 15
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsack View Post
yeah i tried adding oil once with the car on and it just sprayed everywhere. it is normal. there are pulses of air from the pistons going up and down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsack View Post
if the seals in the turbo are bad then oil will be leaking out into the turbo, not air leaking in. and why would there be boost at idle? even on boost the air pressure isn't enough to overcome oil pressure. it is normal for oil to blow out of the cap like that. happened to me on my NON TURBO like i said about adding oil when running. it is actually blowing in and out very fast but you will only ever feel the outward pulses.

Agreed.

With the engine idling remove the oil cap (be prepared for it to spray a bit of oil) and place a piece of paper over the opening. It should look like it's rapidly bouncing up and down as the air alternately pushes out and pulls in. If compression checks out, boost leak test is good and car is running fine then I would say nothing to worry about.


____________________________
Romeen

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 07:47 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter View Post
Lets think about it, you have what you believe is to much pressure coming out the top of your valve cover. There are several thing that could cause this increase in pressure 1. rings 2. turbo 3. ventilation system not working properly. Start off by checking the vent system. You indacate that the breather has a little oil on it .Replace it run the engine see if that changes it, if not check the turbo I don't think that has anything to do with it. If the seals are bad you'll have oil leaks either internal or external.If it's external you'll just have a messy turbo If its internal thats very bad,again if its on the intake side you could do damage to the engine, if on the exhaust side you could have a engine fire.Just in case check your oil lines coming off your turbo. The last thing is your rings.If you did a wet test and compression went up that means you have a little bit of blow by .That could be causing a increase in your oil pan.Causing excess pressure coming out of the oil cap.
I'm about to start pulling my hair out...

IT'S NOT THE RINGS. How about in Spanish? NO ES LOS ANILLOS!

Cleaning or changing the breather filter isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. The oil cap blows the same with or without it. Think about it, that much air coming out of the oil cap which has roughly 10 times the area as the VC breather, the VC breather can't vent all that properly with or without a filter.

Like I said, unless it's something way out in left field that I'm unaware of I pretty much have it narrowed down to the valvetrain but I need to know what exactly to look for within the valvetrain and how to test those components to see if or how they are malfunctioning. The only other problem I can think of is a headgasket that's leaking evenly (again, highly likely).

I am aware that normally there is SOME air cycling in and out of the breather or oil cap neck when the cap is off, it usually feels like a light breath on your hand. This is due to the alternating crankcase pressure etc. The force with which the air is coming out of my oil cap neck is like someone forcefully blowing on to my hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIRDCLAWTSi View Post
do a leakdown test and see what is going on.that will put it to rest. or you can use a smoke machine. see where the smoke comes out.
I think this might be the best idea i've heard so far. I have a good fogging machine for Halloween. How would I use it exactly? Put it by the intake and watch for any fog coming out of the oil cap/vc breather? Now that I think of it, this could be a great alternative for finding boost leaks, whether the system is pulling vacuum or is pressurized...

Tip of the hat...

Last edited by Benshooter; 01-12-2010 at 07:55 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 08:12 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

firefighter's Avatar
Registered: Sep 2008
Tech Posts: 77
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: firefighter is an unknown
Thats what I love about you guys. You ask for help but then you seem to have all the answers. why ask for advise. good luck to you.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 08:34 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Benshooter's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2009
Tech Posts: 205
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: Benshooter is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter View Post
Thats what I love about you guys. You ask for help but then you seem to have all the answers. why ask for advise. good luck to you.
No I don't have the answers and I come looking for help with a big slice of humble pie but I clearly stated, and RE-stated, it's not the rings. If they were bad I would have seen more than a mere 1-3 psi increase when performing the wet compression test. Make sense? I'm trying to be humble and nice but I don't like repeating myself and this isn't my first rodeo.

Sorry if I offend but this isn't a generic problem/answer and I've already stated what the possible problems are and are not.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

 

» Recent DSM Photo
» Current Poll
How many times have you been to the Shootout?
1 - 39.86%
167 Votes
2-5 - 41.77%
175 Votes
6-10 - 10.50%
44 Votes
11-15 - 3.10%
13 Votes
16-20 - 4.77%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 419
You may not vote on this poll.
» Online Users: 638
178 members and 460 guests
Most users ever online was 1,704, 03-17-2008 at 09:11 PM.
DSMtuners Main Sections
DSM Forums
DSM Regional Forums
DSM Builds/Journals
DSM Articles
DSM Tech Guides
DSM Upgrade Paths
DSM Parts Reviews
DSM Vendor Reviews

DSM Classifieds
DSM Parts Guides
DSM Photos
DSM Videos
DSM Timeslips
DSM Dyno Sheets
Shirts & Apparel
DSMtuners Decals

Advertising Info
Our Sponsors
Site Rules
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
Site FAQ
About Us
Contact Us

© 2014 DSMtuners.com - All Rights Reserved

DSMtuners is not affiliated with Diamond Star Motors. The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Mitsubishi Galant VR-4, and associated logos are trademarks of Diamond Star Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, and Chrysler Corporation. No, we do not hand out car sponsorships.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:33 PM.


Vendor Tools vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0