Dynoed the 74mm - New Best 835AWHP @ 46psi!

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by 96awd

I also would like to know why you haven't upgraded to 3" IC piping or even bigger?

He's got a 9 second car so the 2.5 inch pipes must be doing something right.

[96awd]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

He's g
ot a 9 second car so the 2.5 inch pipes must be doing something right.

Lol. Clearly. Just didn't know if it was a certain reasoning for it or the lose of power from the bigger piping was the reasoning, is all.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by 96awd

Lol. Clearly. Just didn't know if it was a certain reasoning for it or the lose of power from the bigger piping was the reasoning, is all.

I believe with the 2.5 inch piping you get more velocity ,I do remember either on evom or high boost forums Buschur did a comparison between both the 2.5 inch and 3 inch piping and there was no real advantage going to 3 inches. I have to look for the link..

[wvturbo2]

Yea I am not saying he's doing anything wrong I just want to know why run that stuff. What are the advantages and so on. Trying to learn from people that have made power and ran the times.

[96awd]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

I believe with the 2.5 inch piping you get more velocity ,I do remember either on evom or high boost forums Buschur did a comparison between both the 2.5 inch and 3 inch piping and there was no real advantage going to 3 inches. I have to look for the link..

I've heard the same. Power loss from upgrading to bigger IC piping was a problem but just a question.

Originally Posted by wvturbo2

Yea I am not saying he's doing anything wrong I just want to know why run that stuff. What are the advantages and so on. Trying to learn from people that have made power and ran the times.

I'm with you on that for sure.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by 96awd

I've heard the same. Power loss from upgrading to bigger IC piping was a problem but just a question.



I'm with you on that for sure.

I'm using my smart phone so I don't know how to cut and paste however Buschur states that he lost both low end and midrange and gained nothing up top all using 3 inch piping.
Best results were achieved with the 2.5 inch piping all around.

[ed1380]

Originally Posted by Diehardmitsu

That much power from a Kia crank? amazing! gives me something to think about on my build...
Are these 2.4 cranks hardened?

they're 4g64 engines from mitsu. kia just used them in their cars.


dam amazing work. makes me think about scrapping my 6 bolt stroker that I havent finished and going with the 7 bolt. less of a hassle with the 6 bolt swap and you've proven the 7 bolt very capable.

[twicks69]

The reason for 2.5" IC pipes and the 60mm 1G throttle body is simplicity. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. I have had this IC setup for around 6 years now and it has worked just fine. IAT's were always excellent, and no spoolup sacrificed or bottle-necked. I am sure with the current setup that I would see even higher power levels on 3" IC pipes and a 70+mm throttle body, but it is negligable when compared to the overall setup. Maybe 30, 40 AWHP tops?

I will get around to it sometime next year, but for now I will just run what I have. I do have a bolt-on 70mm billet throttle body but I am not going to put it on until I do larger cold pipes. For the GT42R, I will make a fresh hot-pipe setup that is 3.5" to 3" @ the intercooler, and just reuse the 2.5" cold pipes for a bit longer.

As for running larger IC piping than 2.5" on a 60mm throttle body, I don't see a reason to do so; the bottle-neck would then be at the throttle plate. You want to have matched size IC pipes to your throttle plate diameter effectively.

So far though, the 2.5" IC pipes and a stock 1G 60mm throttle body has done just fine to over 1000HP at the crank without problems.

[twicks69]

One word of advice for the guys wanting to run a stroker 7-bolt....

Unless you have ALOT of money to spend, DO NOT GO ALUMINUM ROD 7-bolt stroker! It is a very delicate process to properly clearance the block for big aluminum rods that cost me thousands of dollars in machinework, sonic-testing, hand grind time, CNC 4-axis time, and alot of patience. The 7-bolt engine main oil galley is extremely thin where we had to grind to clearance the rods which was the reason for all the sonic testing and CNC work. I am running CP pistons with Groden aluminum rods.

Personally, I would recommend my old setup for anyone wanting to make 750-850AWHP on a 7-bolt stroker in a 97-99 block which was:
Eagle Rods (or another high quality H-beam rod)
Ross Pistons (w/ coated skirts)
Heavy duty thick-wall tool-steel wrist pins
ACL or Mitsubishi bearings
stock crank -- DO NOT cut weight off of it unless you are going to be seeing less than 600AWHP. I bent my crank from lots of boost and lots of rpm (as high as 52psi and 8800rpm).

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by twicks69

stock crank -- DO NOT cut weight off of it unless you are going to be seeing less than 600AWHP. I bent my crank from lots of boost and lots of rpm (as high as 52psi and 8800rpm).

Wow would a lightened 6 bolt crank in a 2.0l suffer from this as well at almost 600 awhp ?

[95tsiemad]

You made 835whp @ 46 psi on your primary injectors how much boost where you gonna run if the other injectors were working.

[red1993gsallmt]

Originally Posted by ceedawg

Wow would a lightened 6 bolt crank in a 2.0l suffer from this as well at almost 600 awhp ?

NO. The 2.4 crank rod and main journals dont overlap as much so they are weaker. I was always told not to knife edge my 2.4 crank when building my 2.3.

[andy4g63]

Nice job, Tim....... As allways.
Good to hear back from you......
Are you 100% bent on attending the shootout????????

P.S. I thing you would do much better job with4202 IMO....


BTW, I think this the link that ceedawg had in mind:
http://highboostforum.com/forum/show...-info-mixed-in.....
Read thru, there is the info about comparing 2.5 to3" piping and TB.

[92nolatist]

Congrats Tim on the numbers!!
Also, very interesting thread about your setup...

[dsm-onster]

WOW TIm! You're doing amazing things with your setup! Congrats!

Originally Posted by red1993gsallmt

NO. The 2.4 cranks dont overlap as much so they are weaker. I was always told not to knife edge my 2.4 crank when building my 2.3.

I was told the same thing. It makes sense. One reason why I'm sticking with the 2.0L motor and looking to other avenues to increase boost response.

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by 95tsiemad

You made 835whp @ 46 psi on your primary injectors how much boost where you gonna run if the other injectors were working.

I am intending on running 55-60psi of boost. Essentially, I want to max out the 5-bar MAP sensor. Lol.

Tim Zimmer via Evo Phone

[dsm-onster]

60psi? Sounds a bit outlandish, you have so much more displacement . . .

Keep figuring out how to turn up the wick! Though this is so far beyond impressive right now, "You can do it!"

[twicks69]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

60psi? Sounds a bit outlandish, you have so much more displacement . . .

Keep figuring out how to turn up the wick! Though this is so far beyond impressive right now, "You can do it!"

Outlandish you say.... They said the same about me running a 7-bolt to this power level. I think there is a bit more in this turbo still, but it will likely require a rebuild before attempting it.

[dsm-onster]

A built 7bolt has a slightly larger crank journal diameter (I think?) and a fat girdle, which you mentioned. Those aspects are "outlandish" . . . Your results are a good lesson for us . Are you going back to eagles? Or what are you thinking?

[NDgsx]

Tim,

Looks good. Curious on a few things from one stroker guy to another if you dont mind sharing. Is the 8* sync'd (not sure what CAS you are running) or was it not counting base? I have found on mine and others at that boost level we can usually get more into them safely and really watch it pickup. This is me at 15* on my new setup-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...n/aaron831.jpg

I have run it at 18-19* without headgasket issues on the 3586(I realise you arent on E85) and Jeff's we are at 17* right now at 44psi. THe other thing I was wondering is if you had played with a larger housing or just the 1.1? We found on his that the bigger divided only made the car look laggy, it works very well in the real world. Of course we are on a 1.44 twin but you might find the 1.25 works better for you and keeps the motor happy.

Congrats for stuffing aluminum rods in that beast. I looked into it and gave up (on the 2.4) when I ground through the oil galley on my 94mm and had to sleeve the oil galley.

Aaron@ER

[twicks69]

I will have to check the timing at the crank to confirm, but I have the timing synch at 15* with a 97-99 CAS. Cams are 3* retard intake, 4* retard exhaust, timing table posted in .pdf format below. I am currently running straight VP Q16 fuel.

I did some passes at the track yesterday with the current dyno tune in ridiculous weather conditions; 95 degree air temps w/ 90% humidity for an effective temperature of 117 degrees. Track surface temp was 137 degrees in direct sunlight all day. Tire pressures stayed at 18psi as it didn't make sense to screw around with them. The biggest thing was keeping the car cool enough to make passes and run my class. I couldn't 60-foot to save my life.

I had only 4 passes for the day. The first was a shakedown with anti-lag on with a dying turbo; it did 11.7 @ 140 with 97mph in the 1/8th. I had two vacuum lines pop off; vac line for boost controller from intake manifold, and two throttle body lines that were looped. The anti-lag didn't like a dying turbo so it spuddered out 1st and into 2nd, then started getting going at 50psi.

Pass #2 was a 9.97@152.49 w/ 1.78 60' and 116.55mph in the 1/8th. Easy pass, low timing from the heat. Heck, only saw 7 degrees of timing at the top of 2nd, 5 degrees at the top of 3rd and 3 degrees at the top of 4th. AFR's between 11.9-12.1 throughout pass. No knock. Short-shifted 2nd at 8400rpm, and 3rd at 8000rpm; redline is 9000rpm and power doesn't drop to redline.

Pass #3 was horrible with a 10.448 @ 151.33mph w/ 1.944 60' and a116.48mph in the 1/8". Timing was around the same.

Pass #4 was a 9.94 @ 151.03 w/ 1.708 60' and 115.16mph in the 1/8th.
I had ignition retard for 3 variables during my last pass yesterday; air temperature, coolant temperature, and knock control. Coolant temp was pulling around 2*, and air temp was pulling around 2*-4.5* from beginning of run to end of run. It also saw a slight amount of knock that pulled timing in the top of 2nd and 3rd gear. I ended up with around 9 degrees of timing at the top of 2nd, 7 degrees of timing at the top of 3rd and 2 degrees of timing at the top of 4th. It was noticably running too little timing due to the temperatures and the safety measures in place.

Here is a video of the passes I just put together.

‪Tim Zimmer - TMZ Performance - twicks69; Back-to-back 9's.‬‏ - YouTube

We also have slow-motion and GoPro on-car video to edit and post up!

As for this turbo, the Borg Warner has severe shaft play which is hurting spoolup by over 1000rpm now and it will be replaced with a Garrett GT4202R, and the Borg will get rebuilt and shelfed as a backup turbo. I did not get any time to play with different housings on it because the thing lasted between 500-1000 miles only.

I really miss a good spooling, durable turbo that has a good powerband, so the Garrett goes back on the car. I gave the Borg Warner a try, and maybe I will go back to it again in the future, but not right now unless I run out of time to get other things on the car done.

As for stuffing aluminum rods into this engine; wow, that was a major chore! I would not recommend ANYONE to do it as it is a very delicate process of clearancing the rods, the cylinder walls, the block webbing, the main oil galley and the oil pan. It is not easy, and requires extreme precision when it comes to clearance tolerances with expansion ratios factored in.

Originally Posted by NDgsx

Tim,

Looks good. Curious on a few things from one stroker guy to another if you dont mind sharing. Is the 8* sync'd (not sure what CAS you are running) or was it not counting base? I have found on mine and others at that boost level we can usually get more into them safely and really watch it pickup. This is me at 15* on my new setup-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...n/aaron831.jpg

I have run it at 18-19* without headgasket issues on the 3586(I realise you arent on E85) and Jeff's we are at 17* right now at 44psi. THe other thing I was wondering is if you had played with a larger housing or just the 1.1? We found on his that the bigger divided only made the car look laggy, it works very well in the real world. Of course we are on a 1.44 twin but you might find the 1.25 works better for you and keeps the motor happy.

Congrats for stuffing aluminum rods in that beast. I looked into it and gave up (on the 2.4) when I ground through the oil galley on my 94mm and had to sleeve the oil galley.

Aaron@ER

[twicks69]

Here is the pass #1-3 ignition timing map, pass #2 AEM Log, pass #4 ignition trims, and pass #4 AEM log in .pdf format.

[GSX_TC1]

Originally Posted by twicks69

I will send it out for rebuild after my upcoming race, but I already have two other backup turbos.

My backup turbos are:

*Garrett GT4088R w/ 0.85 & 0.96 A/R divided T4 housings.
*Garrett GT4202R w/ 1.01 A/R divided T4 housing.

I need to make one charge pipe for the 42r and a coolant line to run it. This will likely be the turbo being ran at the Shootout.

Tim Zimmer via Evo Phone

Can't wait see this car in action at the shootout. I'll be there to record it on video and take good pics

[TRIXTSI]

Very happy to see this thread i was wondering when i'd see an update

After reading through the posts i'm suprised to stuck with your guns and the 7 bolt with all the necessary machine work to get the alum rods in there!

GL the rest of the year i'll be keeping my eyes open for more posts from you and the progress of you 2G

[twicks69]

Thanks Pat! As for the 7-bolt, I wanted to be different, and many years ago I was told by some "big dogs" that the 7-bolt was junk and wouldn't do anything worthwhile for power or reliability. I wanted to prove the masses wrong, and that is what I have been doing for many years.

Considering the stock motor made ~530AWHP/460TQ and ran in the mid 11's in a full-weight daily driver, the Eagle/Ross combo 2.3L made 766AWHP/713TQ on the GT4088R and went 9.96@143 with a 1.52-sixty foot with a best MPH of 149mph in a full weight car minus HVAC and cruise, and the current motor is at 835AWHP with a dying turbo and went 9.94@152 with a 1.70-sixty foot.

Lessons learned along the way:
*Don't remove any weight from the stock crank (FFWD Butcher crank bent from load/power).
*The 2002-2003 Kia Optima 7-bolt 4G64 crank can handle everything I have thrown at it so far without issues.
*Ross and CP pistons are killer! Do the biggest/thickest wrist pin you can fit.
*On a 2.3L 7-bolt, Eagle rods below 1000HP with tool steel thick-wall wrist pins, R&R or Groden aluminum rods for a race motor above this power level OR Howards ultimate duty billet steel rods for durability and longevity at the sacrifice of bearing wear.
*Plug squirters, run coated skirt pistons with dry lube coating.
*Davies Craig EWP115 electric water pump/pump & fan controller in conjunction with an efficient radiator is the bomb for reliability when running a relocated alternator.
*Have alot of spare cash around for replacement transmissions if you stick with a 5-speed on a high power/torque stroker; otherwise go for a built automatic transmission.
*Protect your rear diffferential and use the Frontline Fabrication steel rear differential cover with load bolts, and if possible run it with Boston Hatcher's 4-mount rear diff housing bracketry.
*Quarter Master Gear Drive clutch assembly has been the most reliable clutch for my setup at this power level, and has provided fast shifts everytime.
*Use a better quality crank harmonic balancer than stock; i.e. Fluidampr or ATI. I run a Fluidampr.

I am sure I could ramble on for days to come!

[icwicked]

Nice numbers, car and times!!!

[twicks69]

Updated the website with some new videos!

TMZ Performance

I will try to find time to update the website with more stuff when I get caught up on work!

I added an awesome 1080p HD video of Jon's SL-R race transmission that was just completed along with several videos from the last race event and the 835AWHP dyno pull.

[95tsiemad]

You brining it to the shootout. and if yea same turbo.

[ceedawg]

Originally Posted by twicks69

ThankLessons learned along the way:
*Don't remove any weight from the stock crank (FFWD Butcher crank bent from load/power).*The 2002-2003 Kia Optima 7-bolt 4G64 crank can handle everything I have thrown at it so far without issues.
*Ross and CP pistons are killer

Originally Posted by red1993gsallmt

NO. The 2.4 crank rod and main journals dont overlap as much so they are weaker. I was always told not to knife edge my 2.4 crank when building my 2.3.

Ok Tim like someone had pointed out to me b4 and I want to clarify,does this pertain only to the 7 bolt crank because I have a 6 bolt Butcher crank in my 2.0L motor and only plan to put out if at most 600awhp? Just want to clarify.

[Bud92gsx]

Tim that car is badass..