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Old 03-25-2010, 09:22 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #21 (permalink)
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Great numbers! And the smooth shape of the curve is pretty impressive for a 16g. Even with cams my dyno graph still has a near-vertical line at 4000rpm. I'm pretty sure my SMIC is the bottleneck creating that issue with my car, as that's the biggest difference b/t our intake setups (I don't think the 2.5" piping is much of an advantage over my 2.25" at these HP numbers).

And do you really think the stock MAS is hiding 15-20whp? It'll be interesting to see what the difference is once you go SD. If you make no other change at that step, by all means post up the before and after numbers.

Edit: forgot to add that I'm running a clocked comp housing with a 90* welded on...points out towards the passenger side since I'm on the Dejon SMIC. I don't have any before/after comparisons though.



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Old 03-25-2010, 09:59 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #22 (permalink)
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Wow,great tune,uhmm come take my car and work some magic

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Old 03-25-2010, 11:06 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
Great numbers! And the smooth shape of the curve is pretty impressive for a 16g. Even with cams my dyno graph still has a near-vertical line at 4000rpm. I'm pretty sure my SMIC is the bottleneck creating that issue with my car, as that's the biggest difference b/t our intake setups (I don't think the 2.5" piping is much of an advantage over my 2.25" at these HP numbers).

And do you really think the stock MAS is hiding 15-20whp? It'll be interesting to see what the difference is once you go SD. If you make no other change at that step, by all means post up the before and after numbers.

Edit: forgot to add that I'm running a clocked comp housing with a 90* welded on...points out towards the passenger side since I'm on the Dejon SMIC. I don't have any before/after comparisons though.
Yes, its around 15-20 w.h.p. increase. Every time I run it I pick up 1.5-2 psi of topend boost that I can simple never get when I'm on the stock 2g maf. I also pick up about +100-200 rpm of low rpm spool improvement, and when the boost comes on, it is retarded how hard it hits.

Right now I'm setup on the HKS VPC with a 2 bar map sensor, but its deactivated. That isn't enough for the EVO3 16g and when it sees over 29 psi spikes, the sensor will default to 12 psi reading and mess things up badly. The EVO3 16g needs a 3 bar sensor which I don't have yet, and at this point I wouldn't run speed density again unless its controlled by ECMLink since the HKS VPC starts leaning things out too much when I hook it up.

Maybe you can send me some pics or direct be towards a link of your clocked housing, would help me out.

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Wow,great tune,uhmm come take my car and work some magic
Alot of it is well tested parts combinations, and making sure the a/f ratio/ignition timing/boost is where it should be. For instance, when the car isn't feeling right, I immediately do a boost leak check, then a compression test. If the compression doesn't look good, I do a leakdown test. If that doesn't look good, I do a combustion chamber cleaning and typically it brings up my #2 cylinder numbers to within spec. Then I do 1 pull and see where my 02 voltages, ignition timing values, MAF intake temps are at. A dipping 02 voltage is for sure a fuel pump not getting enough voltage or some restriction in the pickup. That automatically prompts me to hook up a fuel pressure gauge, but I haven't done that in a while since the fuel pump rewire took care of that problem.

9 times out of 10 the ECU is messing with the timing and I have to force it to use my upgraded values. I can probably bring the car back up to spec within an hour if things don't look right with nothing but a quick ECU reset, a couple cranks on the intercooler hose clamps, and some combustion chamber cleaning. Thats how I do it. I already have the hard parts I have relentlessly tested that I'm positive are solid, any other deviations are something the ECU is doing or a boost leak.

On tuning the A/F ratio, I believe 99% of it is trial and error and I am of the school of thought of "tuning for knock" on pump gas. On race gas this does not work cause you can go hyper lean and all that will happen is you will lose massive power. So you need to creep up on the A/F ratio until power starts dropping off on race gas. On ignition timing I have a hard limit of 23* ignition timing since I've found my h.p. values drop off past that and it is in the dangerous zone even on race gas. Some people make a science of it, but I'm not that sophisticated in my WOT ECU tuning since in the end all you can do is tune for max power anyways, and for that you need some serious time on a dyno.

Last edited by pboglio; 03-25-2010 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:57 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pboglio View Post
Yes, its around 15-20 w.h.p. increase. Every time I run it I pick up 1.5-2 psi of topend boost that I can simple never get when I'm on the stock 2g maf. I also pick up about +100-200 rpm of low rpm spool improvement, and when the boost comes on, it is retarded how hard it hits.

Maybe you can send me some pics or direct be towards a link of your clocked housing, would help me out.
Wow, I would not have really suspected such a large pressure drop through the MAS. Thanks for the info. And I'll snap a couple photos of my comp housing for you.


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Old 03-25-2010, 10:20 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #25 (permalink)
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I'm impressed you're not running out of fuel with the Denso 150lph.
Excellent graph. Can't wait for the updates.


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Old 03-26-2010, 12:21 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #26 (permalink)
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Very nice power curve, the car must be hella fun to drive. You got any pics of the turbo setup?

Tom


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Old 03-26-2010, 11:04 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PieEyedPiper View Post
I'm impressed you're not running out of fuel with the Denso 150lph.
Considering what the pump is rated for it does an impressive job. According to RRE, when rewired it flows about the same as a rewired Walbro 190 at 15psi boost and about 17lph more than the 190 at 30psi boost.

RRE Instructions

Having said that I would imagine he's nearing the limits of his fuel system.

Gene, what were your IDC's?


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Old 03-26-2010, 11:37 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #28 (permalink)
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I'm running at the top of 3rd gear about 88%, but everywhere else about 80-85%. I'm also running A/F ratios in the 12.7:1 range on race gas, which is why I can get away with it. On pump gas I'm in the 90-95% range on my 660cc injectors on a cold winter day, so I'm nearing the end of what my fuel system can handle.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:59 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #29 (permalink)
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Very nice, I also agree ecmlink is close to a dynojet. I net 400-415whp and 430-440lbtq via ecmlink. But only made whats in my sig on a load bearing dyno. Damn heartbreakers. I may just hit the dynojet so I can be cool with my 16g power numbers, .


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Old 03-26-2010, 12:12 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayRolla View Post
Very nice, I also agree ecmlink is close to a dynojet. I net 400-415whp and 430-440lbtq via ecmlink. But only made whats in my sig on a load bearing dyno. Damn heartbreakers. I may just hit the dynojet so I can be cool with my 16g power numbers, .
So.... then it's way way way off? I'm confused

Edit: Or are you saying it's close to a dynojet dyno but way off a load bearing dyno like mustang dyno?


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Old 03-26-2010, 12:32 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #31 (permalink)
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Jayrolla,

Yeah, and thats why I use a dynojet
Looks like your making some serious power on E85, can't wait to convert over myself.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:32 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #32 (permalink)
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So.... then it's way way way off? I'm confused

Edit: Or are you saying it's close to a dynojet dyno but way off a load bearing dyno like mustang dyno?
Yea, I dynoed on a Dyno Dynamics All Wheel Drive. The heartbreaker of all dynos. Over 20 dsms dynoed that day with monstor turbos and the highest was 580whp.

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Jayrolla,

Yeah, and thats why I use a dynojet
Looks like your making some serious power on E85, can't wait to convert over myself.
Ohh its fun stuff. I have some cams to through in but need to get the springs and retainers and actually get off my but and do the work. Hopefully 400+whp on a dynojet after that. Anbd then I cant wait to get an hx35 hangin on my head.


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Last edited by JayRolla; 03-26-2010 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:40 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #33 (permalink)
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Very good thread and congrats on meeting your goal! If you were to do it all over again and stay on pump/race gas, would you have gone with the 660s? I'm working towards a similar setup and I have not made a decision on cams (264 or 272) and injectors (660 or 780s). Definately ECMLink V3 to tune.

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Old 03-27-2010, 06:29 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #34 (permalink)
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780's for sure, cause 660's on pump gas are near 100% duty cycle at about 400 w.h.p.

The cams and intake manifold go hand in hand. The HKS 264's are a great midrange cam, but I didn't see huge topend increases until I matched it up to a shorter runner intake manifold (EVO3 intake manifold). If I was unsure, I'd go 264 intake cam and 272 exhaust cam.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:56 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #35 (permalink)
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Gene, just curious why you shimmed the wastegate? Was it blowing open from the exhaust pressure alone? With the Blitz EBC there is a gain adjustment which affects how soon the WG begins to open relative to the target boost. The HKS probably has a similar feature.


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Old 03-27-2010, 01:29 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #36 (permalink)
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THanks, Gene. I will be running the EVO3 intake manifold and it sounded like you were moving on to 272/272. It sounds like you were happy with the 264/272 but now want to shift your curve over and the 272 intake will achieve that, correct?

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Old 03-27-2010, 03:09 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by romeen View Post
Gene, just curious why you shimmed the wastegate? Was it blowing open from the exhaust pressure alone? With the Blitz EBC there is a gain adjustment which affects how soon the WG begins to open relative to the target boost. The HKS probably has a similar feature.
I'm running the old school HKS EVC, the one I bought in 1993 for my 1g. I shimmed it because the EVO3 actuators have a 9 psi cracking pressure, which is way to soft for 22-25 psi. It hits harder with the shim, and I was able to hold 1 psi more on the topend. Old trick I learned 15 years back on my small 16g. There is a limit to the shimming and I've got "Jusmx141" being nice enough working on a 20 psi holset actuator for my EVO3 16g. I have no doubt that mod alone will push me over the 400 w.h.p. barrier. The gains my buddy saw when we shimmed/adjusted his EVO 9 turbo picked up about 30 ft/lbs midrange, and that turbo comes with a 13 psi spring from what we could measure.

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THanks, Gene. I will be running the EVO3 intake manifold and it sounded like you were moving on to 272/272. It sounds like you were happy with the 264/272 but now want to shift your curve over and the 272 intake will achieve that, correct?
Good for you, the EVO3 intake manifold made my topend go ballistic, and killed my clutch too. I'm on HKS 264's and I bought the Kelford 272's which flow more like HKS 280's. It will probably shift the power to the right but as it stands I have way more torque than I need at the moment anyways.

Last edited by pboglio; 03-27-2010 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_bumping
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:26 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMunknown View Post
That's a beautiful curve. Just getting rid of the MAF is gonna bump the HP level significantly. Bout time you got on an actual dyno and confirmed your findings.

And here's a "Hell yeah!" to clocking the 16G. Hell yeah!


I disagree at least with the "significantly" part. 5-8 whp I can buy but I wouldn't call that "significant". I have had and used a GM MAFT setup, I went back to a 2G MAS. I didn't have any major problems with it, except for the tune was never consistent enough for my liking. Going back to a factory MAS, the car starts easier and seems to run a little better.


Now I am not saying on a car with a big ass turbo, there wouldn't be more of a gain from the GM MAFT, but I think on anything smaller than a 20g, it's not needed at all. Just my opinion which is biased on what I have observed.
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Old 03-28-2010, 06:16 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #39 (permalink)
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I disagree at least with the "significantly" part. 5-8 whp I can buy but I wouldn't call that "significant". I have had and used a GM MAFT setup, I went back to a 2G MAS. I didn't have any major problems with it, except for the tune was never consistent enough for my liking. Going back to a factory MAS, the car starts easier and seems to run a little better.


Now I am not saying on a car with a big ass turbo, there wouldn't be more of a gain from the GM MAFT, but I think on anything smaller than a 20g, it's not needed at all. Just my opinion which is biased on what I have observed.
They are talking about switching to speed density, not maft.
Maf-t is notorious for a "wandering tune" that you are describing.
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:09 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #40 (permalink)
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They are talking about switching to speed density, not maft.
Maf-t is notorious for a "wandering tune" that you are describing.

O.... well carry on then.
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