Pictures from my most recent (and last) AWD swap on a friends spyder. Unfortunately I do not have more pictures than these right now.
Man you california guys sure are lucky - no rust! My car is a Florida car and it is not near that clean!
Finally got mine done, still working out some minor bugs. My donor was a POS so I am basically replacing most everything that I should have before putting it in the car.
For the drive shaft carriers, I used steel pop rivets to put them in. My welding sucked, I know they build airplanes with pop rivets so thought I would try it. The trick is to do it like they build airplanes. Use STEEL rivets space them so they are at least 1/4 inch apart and 3/4 at the max, like going around the holes where the spot welds used to be. Use 3/8 long rivets, these are long enough to go through the thick parts and still spread when popped. Strip the metal bare and put a bead of epoxy between the carrier and the body. I used JB weld, but I am sure there are better epoxies to use. Check out "aircraft spruce" They sell the best rivets "Cherry Max" and they sell metal epoxy for aircraft construction. Even if you are going to weld I recommend a couple pop rivets to hold the carriers in place before you weld. So far so good 300 miles and day at the drag strip and no movement yet.
Flame on
Last edited by gorf; 05-09-2008 at 07:08 AM.
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Hey guys, did some damage to the fwd tranny this past weekend at the track & was thinking now may be a good time to do the awd swap. I've done a bunch of reading but still have some questions. First, I may have found a doner car locally but it's high mileage, with rust, etc so will need a complete rebuild. I don't think this will be a huge issue but I'm trying to figure out what all I can save from my fwd (as its mint) so I don't have to buy new OEM parts for items that can't be "reconditioned". I thought I read you can use the fwd parking brake cable is this correct? What about the filler necks, are parts of them the same or are they completely different? (while quickly through CAPS, I believe the upper portion is the same & the lower is different (though I guess that may change depending on the model year). For the rear knuckles, does it matter if they are from an ABS or non ABS car, since my car is non ABS? Also if the doner has the factory vented rear rotors (need to check), will my non vented brake setup bolt up?
Also my car is a 98 & the doner is a 95 I believe. Is there any reason that I should be looking for a 97-99 doner or does it matter? I believe the 95-96 transfer cases & rear ends (& maybe trannies?) have different gear ratios, is there any reason to choose one over the other? (or do the final drive ratios work out to be the same?). Also being the doner is a 95 & I'm a 98 I know though the years they changed some emissions related components, will this create an issue for me as I do have to pass regular emissions testing here (no CEL's showing & a tail pipe test)
I thought I read you can use the fwd parking brake cable is this correct?
Maybe. Most people use the AWD cable just because it's much easier to detach them from the handle than from the hub. I've never disassembled the rear hubs before, so I don't know how easy/difficult it is to remove the cables. But I assume there is no differences in the cables themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
What about the filler necks, are parts of them the same or are they completely different?
Yes and no. Some years of DSM's had the charcoal canister and other evap stuff on the filler neck. That made it a PITA to re-use the FWD filler neck. I ended up using the AWD neck on my car as it was much more simple and easy. But, I'm pretty sure you can make the FWD filler neck work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
For the rear knuckles, does it matter if they are from an ABS or non ABS car, since my car is non ABS?
No, that won't matter because the ABS ring is on the CV axle cups. Just remove the wiring that connects to the spindles and subframe and you're good to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
Also if the donor has the factory vented rear rotors (need to check), will my non vented brake setup bolt up?
That, I don't now. I'm not familiar enough with brake combinations to be able to accurately answer this one. But I can say that I ended up using my FWD vented rotors, calipers, and caliper brackets on my AWD subframe/knuckles. I just can't remember if the original rotors on the AWD donor car were solid or vented (I would guess vented though).
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
Also my car is a 98 & the doner is a 95 I believe. Is there any reason that I should be looking for a 97-99 doner or does it matter?
No, you'll be fine with a '95 donor. My donor was a '95 GSX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
I believe the 95-96 transfer cases & rear ends (& maybe trannies?) have different gear ratios, is there any reason to choose one over the other? (or do the final drive ratios work out to be the same?).
As far as I know, the final drives are all the same on the 2G M/T cars. As long as you are pulling all the components off of the same car, they will all be matched and you'll be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
Also being the doner is a 95 & I'm a 98 I know though the years they changed some emissions related components, will this create an issue for me as I do have to pass regular emissions testing here (no CEL's showing & a tail pipe test)
Yes, there was different emissions set-ups for different years. As long as you keep the emissions equipment that you currently have, then you'll be fine.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Wow, thanks Paul that helps out alot. So being your a 99, I would think our emissions "junk" back there would be similar, so were you able to hook the parts back up to the 95 tank? The doner probably has about 140K on it (& probably seen winter use), so I'm thinking things like the parking brake cables will probably be in bad shape. I'm trying to get the VIN off the doner to see if their swappable. Same thing with the filler neck, if not swappable, I'll need to see if their even still available from the dealer for a 95. All the other components will be stripped & powdercoated & bushings/balljoints will be replaced with new.
Wow, thanks Paul that helps out alot. So being your a 99, I would think our emissions "junk" back there would be similar, so were you able to hook the parts back up to the 95 tank? The doner probably has about 140K on it (& probably seen winter use), so I'm thinking things like the parking brake cables will probably be in bad shape. I'm trying to get the VIN off the doner to see if their swappable. Same thing with the filler neck, if not swappable, I'll need to see if their even still available from the dealer for a 95. All the other components will be stripped & powdercoated & bushings/balljoints will be replaced with new.
I ended up eliminating all of my emissions junk at the same time of the AWD swap. Mine were all connected to the filler neck. I never had the big charcoal canister up in the engine bay like most DSMs do. Where is your charcoal canister at?
Yeah, my donor car had some rust - definitely seen it's share of winters. Surprisingly though, most components were in good shape. Most of the rust was only toward the front of the car. The e-brake cables were in excellent shape, so I used them. I did re-use my '99 rear upper control arms too. The '95 ones had some rust and mine were pristine.
I also found it easier (for driveshaft alignment purposes) to remove your factory FWD front driveshaft support and stud it for the driveshaft, rather than use the one from the AWD car.
Does your FWD filler neck look this one, or is it naked?
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
I had the filler cover off not too long ago & am thinking mine looks like your (& don't think I have a charcoal canister in the engine bay) but will have to double check when I get a chance.
Paul (& anyone else who has done the swap), what kind of milage was on the doner car & what if any did you have rebuilt? Like was saying this one has ~220K kilometers (~135K miles) & everything is supposed to be in working order but am wondering if everything needs to be rebuilt right away, or are some things okay? Was planning on get the tranny built up abit to take some abuse, rebuild the transfer case while its out, replace the half shafts & also thinking about getting the driveshaft done & having the rear checked & freshened up if required. What are everyones thoughts on this?
If you have the time and money to have everything freshened up, then go for it. That is never a bad idea. My donor car had somehwere around 130K on it when I bought it. He said it ran and drove fine before the t-belt snapped. I just had my tranny rebuild at TRE and that was it. But Jon did say the tranny had quite a bit of wear and probably wouldn't have lasted very long the way it was. Otherwise, I am using the t-case, driveshaft, and rear end just the way it came off of the donor car. I only replaced fill plugs, drain plugs, crush washers, and fluids. I haven't had any issues yet.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Paul, mine is the same as yours, extra junk on the filler neck & the charcoal cannister is actually in the fuel tank.
On too my next question. Just to verify on the rear suspension, you need the rear awd knuckles but the upper control arms & both front & rear lower control arms are the same? I'm wondering because everywhere I recall reading says they are the same from fwd to awd but when I look at CAPS, it gives me a different part # for the rear lower control arms?
For the front suspension, its all the same correct? This is what I have read but I seem to be getting different part #'s for some pieces between fwd & awd. Also, the front wheel bearings are the same? I know the fwds have a larger shaft & different inner spline count on the half shafts, so want to verify my current front wheel bearings are okay?
Paul, mine is the same as yours, extra junk on the filler neck & the charcoal cannister is actually in the fuel tank.
In that case, I would strongly recommend using the AWD fill neck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
On too my next question. Just to verify on the rear suspension, you need the rear awd knuckles but the upper control arms & both front & rear lower control arms are the same? I'm wondering because everywhere I recall reading says they are the same from fwd to awd but when I look at CAPS, it gives me a different part # for the rear lower control arms?
The upper rear control arms are the same - I'm not sure about the lowers. I'm currently using the AWD lowers, and FWD uppers in the rear. I'm also using my FWD rear trailing arms. I just verified with CAPS that those are the same for FWD and AWD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p
For the front suspension, its all the same correct? This is what I have read but I seem to be getting different part #'s for some pieces between fwd & awd. Also, the front wheel bearings are the same? I know the fwds have a larger shaft & different inner spline count on the half shafts, so want to verify my current front wheel bearings are okay?
You shouldn't have to modify or change anything with the front suspension - I didn't. The axles that came off my '95 donor car fit perfectly in my '99 wheel bearings.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Thanks again for the info Paul. I was going to see if I could work with my filler neck but like you said, more then likely I'll just go with the 95-96 filler neck. Only the rear lower for the rear suspension seems to have a different part # between the two. So, their not that expensive & it would be nice to have new balljoints there, so I'll just pick new awd ones up. Looks like I'm good on the front.
What about the intermediate shaft assembly (believe thats what its called, piece that you install the drivers side half shaft into). Looks like they had two version for 95-96 & changed for 97-99. Does this match the body year of the car or the drivetrain year? (think the issue is how it bolt to the block). Are you using the one from your doner Paul & did it bolt right up?
What about the intermediate shaft assembly (believe thats what its called, piece that you install the drivers side half shaft into). Looks like they had two version for 95-96 & changed for 97-99. Does this match the body year of the car or the drivetrain year? (think the issue is how it bolt to the block). Are you using the one from your doner Paul & did it bolt right up?
Yeah, as long as the axles and intermediate shaft matches the tranny, you're fine. I had no issues bolting it all up on my '99. Just remember to use a spacer on the intermediate shaft mount if you don't have your A/C compressor mounting bracket on there anymore.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Thanks, still have AC, so looks like I'm good. I'm working on sourching the parts so with any luck will have another awd owner next year . Though I'm sure I'll have more questions before then
Thanks, still have AC, so looks like I'm good. I'm working on sourching the parts so with any luck will have another awd owner next year . Though I'm sure I'll have more questions before then
Excellent. Well, dont hesitate to shoot me a PM or post in this thread. I should be able to answer any questions regarding this swap and/or parts needed.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Well have sourced most of the parts for the swap. The ones I have need some work to get into the condition I'd put on my car but the drivetrain should be basically like new (well actually better then new) when I'm done. I working on getting certain components that are rust free, so we'll see
Paul I had another question about the intermediate shaft, were you able to get both mounting holes to line up correctly on the block? Tim was saying the difference is the bracket offsets from 95-96 to 97-99 & if I tried to bolt up the 95, I wouldn't be able to install both bolts?
I had zero issues getting my '95 intermediate shaft to line up on my '99 block. I just had to use a portion of the A/C bracket as a spacer, and it fit perfectly. I thought I remembered reading about that difference in intermediate shafts before, but I'm not 100% about that, so I can't confirm or deny what Tim said. I'm sure that I had no problems though. I also picked up a '96 parts car shortly after my swap was complete and it had a nicer intermediate shaft, to I ended up swapping that out on my car. It fit fine too.
Let me know if you're having a hard time locating certain parts. I might be able to broaden your search and give a hand finding something if you can't.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Guys, here's a question on the spare tires that AWDs come with.
I just picked up a wrecked Talon TSI to do my swap and was wondering if I can still use my stock 2G Spyder spare tire (T125/70D15) with my stock 16" 5-spoke Spyder Rims. Or will it be better to locate an AWD spare even though by stock 16" 5-spokes are 16" and AWD's came with factory 17"?
According to the specs of that spare, looks like it should work out to ~21.9" diameter. So I forget what sized tires your running but they have to be a couple inches more. So looks like we both need an awd spare
Hey guys,
I was talking with one of the DSM scrap yards looking for a driver's side rear knuckle (my AWD donor’s was wrecked in an accident). I was explaining to him what I was doing (AWD Spyder Swap) and he told me that I can still use my FWD knuckle, just need to remove the FWD hub/bearing assembly and install new AWD hub/bearing assemblies. In theory this might make sense, as long as the knuckles are the same? But according to CAPs they share different part numbers which is leading me to believe they are indeed different.
Technically, he's right. The only difference is that the rear knuckles on the FWD car are capped off where the axle would pass through and attach. It is possible to "convert" rear FWD spindles into AWD ones. I just don't know what parts are necessary or how to do it. I don't know if it would be easier to just buy the AWD rear knuckles or not...
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Peepers.. I have a set of AWD rear knuckles. All the brake parts are there, just on of the shields is cut to fit a bigger rotor on there and the cables are cut. PM me if you are interested
99gst_racer, your right about that cap. I guess it was there to keep dirt and crap out of the FWD rear bearings? According to CAPS it looks like that cap is a seperate item that can be ordered #MB864970? I wonder if it's removable?
99gst_racer, your right about that cap. I guess it was there to keep dirt and crap out of the FWD rear bearings? According to CAPS it looks like that cap is a seperate item that can be ordered #MB864970? I wonder if it's removable?
The cap on the FWD should be removable (never tried but it looks to be a seperate part). The knuckles are the exact same as far as I can tell but I'm almost positive the AWD knuckle also has a bigger hole where the hub bolts to. I had my rear fwd suspension apart a few months back to swap bushings & from what I remember these holes in the knuckle seemed to be a smaller diameter. Also when you look at them both in CAPS, I thought they appeared to be different sizes. Guess I'll have to do some investigating when I get a chance.
Okay guys, I've got a dumb question. In CAPS it says there's 3 large bolts & then 4 smaller bolts needed to mount the transfer case. I know where the 3 large & two of the smaller ones go but what about the other two? I thought maybe they were used somewhere else & CAPS just showed a total qty for that part # as 4 but now I see DSMGraveyard is selling the kit with 4 smaller bolts as well, so where do the two extra bolts go?
Daren, that’s such a dumb question lol – too bad I was wondering the same thing. Us FWD Canuks are real dumb lol
Regarding the rear knuckles, I’ve confirmed that AWD and FWD are indeed different. According to that “DSM Scrap Yard”, the wheel bearing / hub holes are different diameters and the four bolt holes to secure the bearing/hub are in different locations.
Okay guys, I've got a dumb question. In CAPS it says there's 3 large bolts & then 4 smaller bolts needed to mount the transfer case. I know where the 3 large & two of the smaller ones go but what about the other two? I thought maybe they were used somewhere else & CAPS just showed a total qty for that part # as 4 but now I see DSMGraveyard is selling the kit with 4 smaller bolts as well, so where do the two extra bolts go?
IIRC, there's 5 bolts, not 7. Three long ones, and two shorter ones.
MF241319 should be two, not four.
But, then again, I haven't even touched a t-case in 8+ months, and my memory sucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peepers
Regarding the rear knuckles, I’ve confirmed that AWD and FWD are indeed different. According to that “DSM Scrap Yard”, the wheel bearing / hub holes are different diameters and the four bolt holes to secure the bearing/hub are in different locations.
Would it be possible to swap an AWD wheel bearing into a FWD rear knuckle?
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
![AWD Conversion/Swap Guys Enter Here - Advanced. [Merged 2-07]](/forums/iconimages/drivetrain-tech/awd-conversion-swap-guys-enter-here-advanced-merged-2-07-a_ltr.gif)
– too bad I was wondering the same thing.
Us FWD Canuks are real dumb 
lol 
