Well I guess just try to do the process of elimination and analyze all the variables.
I know your definitly not a newbie and probably know much more than I do, but my attempt to help=
- confirm compression is good.
- Make sure the AFR on the WBO2 is ideal
- Check plugs for little signs of anything
- Boost leak test the entire system
- make sure theres no exhaust leak though youd likely know it
- Make sure the clutch isnt slipping, or somethign in the drivetrain robbing power abnormally
- Go over all the pipeing from intake to exhaust and rethink your setup, bottle necks in mind.
- Better yet how much lbs/min of air are you flowing according to AEM
If everything above checks off, and you are getting GOOD AFR's, compression, and base timing is good along with ign timing, and theres no Boost leaks, and your AEM shows good lbs/min of air. If your power isnt really increasing with boost like it should be and your stuck in the 400something HP land, then it actually "sounds like its an air flow problem, especially being that torque is dropping so bad... But Im pretty sure youd know if something wasnt flowing for shit.
Then the next thing to assume is there is something internally wrong with the head/motor, or possible mis match of parts in the setup. Trying the bigger cams and swapping to a different intake manifold other than that magnus are probably worth a shot, and will likely at least give you some decent gains.Im just picking at straws now...
What about cam gear tuning also? Maybe you can display a log of your ign timing etc for us and someone is bound to know something... As long as there aint any major bottle necks, internal issues, there is only so many things that it can be, basically with making power its more air, more fuel, good spark, good timing equals more power, and your setup should have so much still left in it...
____________________________
((Jay))
E316G - 6bolt/4bolt
2800lbs w/ driver
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Well I guess just try to do the process of elimination and analyze all the variables.
I know your definitly not a newbie and probably know much more than I do, but my attempt to help=
- confirm compression is good.
- Make sure the AFR on the WBO2 is ideal
- Check plugs for little signs of anything
- Boost leak test the entire system
- make sure theres no exhaust leak though youd likely know it
- Make sure the clutch isnt slipping, or somethign in the drivetrain robbing power abnormally
- Go over all the pipeing from intake to exhaust and rethink your setup, bottle necks in mind.
- Better yet how much lbs/min of air are you flowing according to AEM
If everything above checks off, and you are getting GOOD AFR's, compression, and base timing is good along with ign timing, and theres no Boost leaks, and your AEM shows good lbs/min of air. If your power isnt really increasing with boost like it should be and your stuck in the 400something HP land, then it actually "sounds like its an air flow problem, especially being that torque is dropping so bad... But Im pretty sure youd know if something wasnt flowing for shit.
Then the next thing to assume is there is something internally wrong with the head/motor, or possible mis match of parts in the setup. Trying the bigger cams and swapping to a different intake manifold other than that magnus are probably worth a shot, and will likely at least give you some decent gains.Im just picking at straws now...
What about cam gear tuning also? Maybe you can display a log of your ign timing etc for us and someone is bound to know something... As long as there aint any major bottle necks, internal issues, there is only so many things that it can be, basically with making power its more air, more fuel, good spark, good timing equals more power, and your setup should have so much still left in it...
Reading over the post I was like, yup did that and that, did that too. Trust me its weird . Were going to hang her up until my JM Fab manifold gets here so we can do back to back pulls. There is a possibility that well swap the cams back to the 280's that were in there with the SBR head so we'll see. I think the car needs to collect its thoughts and get a big handfull of act right, or we do, or something... With the TQ drop situation, if you look at some of the other dyno sheets on the site youll be shocked with just how much these cars drop TQ. So looking at it that way the 90lb ft really isnt that bad compared to others ive seen. Its just a bunch of bull... shit!
I know of a few cars that are overbuilt, or heavily modded with high expectations like yours and that ended up with frustration or that didnt really perform or there was always some headache from rushing the project along too fast. Especially being every car is different and will react a different way, you cant always go by general consensus of what worked for the other guy. When a box load of parts are thrown at the car you cant slowly work your way up part by part... Not saying this is the case with you because I dont know... I mean, your car is extremely awesome and better than what majority of us could every hope for even if you didnt make good numbers.
If the different cams and jmfab doesnt do the trick then, what if you have a buddy with dsmlink, ask to borrow his link and tune the car on somethign simple, and try simpler approaches, what if you get good results that way? Maybe not realistic but im not being irrational either. You already stated your AEM was having issues earlier.
It might not be what you want to hear, but sometimes you have to back track, what has changed since you were making enough power to trap 141 and go 10secs...
I know the dyno is a great way of tuning and taking measurements, but Keep in mind, is your end goal for the car to be a dyno queen or to actually be out there running xx.xx times... Id hope the later.
____________________________
((Jay))
E316G - 6bolt/4bolt
2800lbs w/ driver
Last edited by Black_Bullet; 10-16-2008 at 09:42 AM.
As someone as has mentioned, you might just be below that turbo's efficiency range. Have you looked at a compressor map? Also, what kind of timing are you seeing?
I know of a few cars that are overbuilt, or heavily modded with high expectations like yours and that ended up with frustration or that didnt really perform or there was always some headache from rushing the project along too fast. Especially being every car is different and will react a different way, you cant always go by general consensus of what worked for the other guy. When a box load of parts are thrown at the car you cant slowly work your way up part by part... Not saying this is the case with you because I dont know... I mean,but what if you have a buddy with dsmlink, ask to borrow his link and tune the car on somethign simple, and try simpler approaches, what if you get good results that way? Maybe not realistic but im not being irrational either. You already stated your AEM was having issues earlier.
It might not be what you want to hear, but sometimes you have to back track...
I know the dyno is a great way of tuning and taking measurements, but Keep in mind, is your end goal for the car to be a dyno queen or to actually be out there running xx.xx times... Id hope the later.
First off, as you can see, this has not been a car that has been just, slapped together. Second, a box load of parts just thrown on isnt exactly what I would call this build. Third, yes sometimes the simple way is better but most of the hard stuff is already taken away, the car is quite simple when you really think about it. Fourth, the AEM issue has been resolved, it was a faulty box and the problem had been corrected. I think at this point back tracking is an option and go back to the basics of the car and see if we can find some sort of an error somewhere. As far as the end goal goes, yes it will be a track car, but without good numbers on the dyno we know the car wont go very fast. Im not into going 11's in the car. We just need to figgure it out.
As someone as has mentioned, you might just be below that turbo's efficiency range. Have you looked at a compressor map? Also, what kind of timing are you seeing?
Even if it is below the turbos efficiency range that still dosnt explain why the dyno graphs look exactly the same at 28psi as 35psi??? For timing, it was 15 degrees of ignition advance and was increasing with rpm from 5500-9000rpm reaching 17.5 degrees by 9000. This was at 30psi. We did give it more timing but with very minimal gains.
Even if it is below the turbos efficiency range that still dosnt explain why the dyno graphs look exactly the same at 28psi as 35psi??? For timing, it was 15 degrees of ignition advance and was increasing with rpm from 5500-9000rpm reaching 17.5 degrees by 9000. This was at 30psi. We did give it more timing but with very minimal gains.
Have you done a leak down? With a torque curve being the same at 28 and 35psi something tells me you have cylinder pressure escaping.
Cylinder compression was fine so the leak down test would be pointless.
You know what it is, its my Hondata heatshield intake manifold gasket, stupid Honda parts,
let us know when you find out because im very curious. hopefully the cams and intake manifold will do the trick for you. i would hate for you to spend all that money to see it go to waste!
also how many lbs are you flowing at 30psi???????
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David 1991 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
let us know when you find out because im very curious. hopefully the cams and intake manifold will do the trick for you. i would hate for you to spend all that money to see it go to waste!
Nope. He will be using a 47R when the car gets put back together though. He might have been running methanol also. I remember reading that he wasn't using an intercooler or radiator. Jake Montgomery got into the 8's also. I believe 8.6x's.
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Pat...AKA Project Pat
Nope. He will be using a 47R when the car gets put back together though. He might have been running methanol also. I remember reading that he wasn't using an intercooler or radiator. Jake Montgomery got into the 8's also. I believe 8.6x's.
Cylinder compression was fine so the leak down test would be pointless.
You know what it is, its my Hondata heatshield intake manifold gasket, stupid Honda parts,
Cylinder pressures can vary from cylinder compression. As when you do a compression you are only measuring maximum compression. You might have 157psi it one cylinder but you might be losing pressure in that cylinder through the other phases of the motor during rotation. I would leak down it. You might be pushing air past somethings you would never think about it. It takes 10 seconds and it is another piece to the puzzle.
Cylinder pressures can vary from cylinder compression. As when you do a compression you are only measuring maximum compression. You might have 157psi it one cylinder but you might be losing pressure in that cylinder through the other phases of the motor during rotation. I would leak down it. You might be pushing air past somethings you would never think about it. It takes 10 seconds and it is another piece to the puzzle.
I agree with doing a leakdown since it would tell you a whole lot more than just a compression test. I had a similar situation although it was a B series honda but all the same priciples,we had it on the dyno and once we went up on boost (25+) it dropped torque like a rock and plateaud the HP. Checked everything out including compression test and all was fine but obviously we had a problem. Did a leakdown and 2 cylinders next to each other had more leakdown than the other 2 and no air coming from intake or dipstick so valves seemed to be sealing and no leakage past rings hence the good compression numbers. It ended up being the headgasket was the culprit and at high boost would actually lift head and leak past gasket resulting in lost compression and sudden tq drop and flat top end power unlike a honda on boost. The weird thing was we had no oil/water mixing so of course made it harder to detect,just keep in mind a HG will go in many diff ways. Switched out the HG and all was fine problem fixed. Not saying thats exactly your problem just saying compression test alone did not help me with tracking down the problem but your on the right track starting with that first. Cranking only would not cause the problem it needed cylinder pressures. I assume you are on an O-ringed head/block with L19s with the type of build you are doing considering boost/power levels you are expecting so like I said maybe not your problem. Just figured throwing that out there in case it might help. G/L
Tell you guys what, ill do one tomorrow just because everyone is so pro leak down. Hell, i dont have anything else to do with it until my new manifold gets here anyways.
Tell you guys what, ill do one tomorrow just because everyone is so pro leak down. Hell, i dont have anything else to do with it until my new manifold gets here anyways.
Dont do it to please us. Just trying to help you figure out a problem.
I didnt look up the lb per min, I guess i can look it up. Boost was steady and flat as can be.
Correct me if im reading it wrong but on your first graph that logs rpm,boost,A/F it looks like your a/f's are between 10.6-10.8 which is way too rich for the boost and timing you mentioned earlier in the thread which was not crazy advance. Not to mention your on c16. I fully understand that you get it in the ballpark untill reaching desired boost and then fine tune a/f and timing but it looks like it starts dropping torque when it goes rich. Peak torque is at 6200 so looks like your getting full boost by 5500 or so. Your drop at 7600-8400 could be the 272's are'nt cutting it for your combination which you already mentioned you were switching. I would put those 280's in there and lean it out and see where that gets you. Again Im sure you guys have been playing with diff. a/f's and what not but im just commenting on the specific graphs you posted up. G/L
. Were going to hang her up until my JM Fab manifold gets here so we can do back to back pulls. There is a possibility that well swap the cams back to the 280's that were in there with the SBR head so we'll see. I think the car needs to collect its thoughts and get a big handfull of act right, or we do, or something... With the TQ drop situation, if you look at some of the other dyno sheets on the site youll be shocked with just how much these cars drop TQ. So looking at it that way the 90lb ft really isnt that bad compared to others ive seen. Its just a bunch of bull... shit!
