Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource on the web



















Login



Go Back   DSMtuners > DSM Forums > DSM Tech > Cylinder Head & Short Block
Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource
You are browsing the site as a GUEST. Please login (or register) and gain the ability to post on our site and interact with other DSMers. You also get to browse the site with fewer advertisements. It is FREE to join!

Cylinder Head & Short Block: 4G63 cams, valvetrain, pistons, rods, stroker kits, 6-bolt swaps, hybrids, etc. Read this Forum's Strict Guidelines.

Reply  
 
LinkBack   Thread Tools
Old 01-10-2006, 05:26 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phishin84's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2005
Tech Posts: 18
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: phishin84 is an unknown

Replace rings with engine in car?


Hey guys, i don't post much as i can usually find all my answers by looking around, but ive finally run into major car problems. I noticed some low compression in my engine. I tested it, and came out with 29-150-150-150.
I wet tested the #1 piston and it went from 29 to 91. This points to the rings I am pretty certain. Is it difficult to change the rings out with the engine still mounted? I don't have much money and I have even less time so i was wondering if this is even possible to do in a matter of a weekend.

Also, when I rev the engine I can smell fuel. Behind the #1 injector under the rail it is wet looking, unlike the area behind the other injectors. I can't see or feel a leak anywhere but it smells like it. Does it make sense that a fuel leak at the #1 injector would cause the rings to go if it is not getting adequate fuel?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

-Roy


mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 05:56 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

Justins99GSX's Avatar
Registered: Oct 2004
Tech Posts: 179
Photos: 3
Classifieds Rating: 1
Reputation: Justins99GSX is more helpful than not
Sounds like your Fuel Injector seal is bad on youre number 1 injector. This in turn is a vacumm leak which would cause that cylinder to run a little lean. Take your fuel rail off and check to see if the seal is there or cracked... pick up four new ones and put the fuel rail back on...(oh yeah be careful not to lose the little spacers that are on the bolts for the fuel rail)
good luck

edit: you may want to go ahead and replace the top seals as well
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 09:50 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TSIfreek's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2003
Tech Posts: 1,620
Photos: 1
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: TSIfreek is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to TSIfreek
Quote:
Originally Posted by phishin84
Hey guys, i don't post much as i can usually find all my answers by looking around, but ive finally run into major car problems. I noticed some low compression in my engine. I tested it, and came out with 29-150-150-150.
I wet tested the #1 piston and it went from 29 to 91. This points to the rings I am pretty certain. Is it difficult to change the rings out with the engine still mounted? I don't have much money and I have even less time so i was wondering if this is even possible to do in a matter of a weekend.

Also, when I rev the engine I can smell fuel. Behind the #1 injector under the rail it is wet looking, unlike the area behind the other injectors. I can't see or feel a leak anywhere but it smells like it. Does it make sense that a fuel leak at the #1 injector would cause the rings to go if it is not getting adequate fuel?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

-Roy
From what you stated it sounds like cylinder 1 got washed out by a leaking injector and just pored fuel in and trashed the wall. Without some decent money to do it right I would just leave it as is because the cylinder needs to be rehoned (at least a ballhone) and re ringed for the new rings to seal the wall (now is glazed over) and the new rings wont seal very well. Did you have any problems with it runnning rough with 1 cylinder with 29 psi???


____________________________
Kris
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2006, 08:39 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TERBOLASER's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2003
Tech Posts: 173
Classifieds Rating: 2
Reputation: TERBOLASER is more helpful than not
Dude replacing rings with out taking the engine out of the car is easy ( alittle more hassle if you have an awd more under car stuff to move. ) Ive done it twice before once for myself and another for a friend. Can be done in about15hours of work straight if you keep at it and HAVE ALL THE TOOLS AT HAND. When i do it i typiccally go and check compression record that keep all parts to there designated cylinders etc. Pull the head with manifolds attached to it off as one piece then take the oil pan and lower stuff off. and then that leave the block in the car. now your free to remover the pistons thru the deck of the block via turning the engine to get to each set of connecting rod bolts at the crank. ( you only have to turn the crank 180 degrees to do this. its not that bad honestly. But as previously stated you must hone the cylinders or you will come out with less compression than yous tarted with in all cylinder. but you can get a hone from any autoparts store and attach it to a drill. Some store let you borrow it for a small fee that is refund after you give it back. thats my two cents take it or leave it. Just follow the hanes manual procedure for engine over haul thats what i basically did.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2006, 03:18 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phishin84's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2005
Tech Posts: 18
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: phishin84 is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justins99GSX
Sounds like your Fuel Injector seal is bad on youre number 1 injector. This in turn is a vacumm leak which would cause that cylinder to run a little lean. Take your fuel rail off and check to see if the seal is there or cracked... pick up four new ones and put the fuel rail back on...(oh yeah be careful not to lose the little spacers that are on the bolts for the fuel rail)
good luck

edit: you may want to go ahead and replace the top seals as well

But would this lean condition damage the rings? I thought this would more likely damage the piston itself or the valves perhaps. I understand the idea of the cylinder getting washed because it would destroy the rings, but I have a feeling there is a leak before the injector not the injector leaking excess fuel into the cylinder. Very confusing. The shop wants $4500 to rebuild the engine which is ridiculous so i dont know what to do yet.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 03:36 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TERBOLASER's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2003
Tech Posts: 173
Classifieds Rating: 2
Reputation: TERBOLASER is more helpful than not
well here is the thing if you think logically about it what happens when you ignite a lean mixture in relation to temperature????? well of course it burns hotter right?.... well when gases get hotter what do then tend to do expand right? well if a gase expands in its container in this case the cylinder and combustion chamber which wont really expand much ### happens in relation to pressure?.... it goes up the hotter you burn the more pressure involved.. so to go on it is very possible that you had two degrading factors to those rings if it was running really lean. 1# the rings were subject to extreme heat on the leve of what the rings usually do and the rings are metal so they are very affected by temperature 2# is that the pressure the rings were subjected to was extreme as well... and the rings are responsible for creating a seal between the piston and the cylinder walls. so your lean mixture could have very possible caused them to go out if they are stock rings original factory equipment right off the lot. thats what i think but did you check the plugs on the cylinder you expect to be lean there should be no carbon on it it should look sorta whitish yellow if it was running lean on that cylinder. check it to the picture in a haynes manual for spark plugs reading. now as for the rebuilding your motor if itsjust rings id say go for itjust follow the diriections and youll be fine if you need help ask some dsmers in your area they should be happy to help and show you a thing or two.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 05:01 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

dsm-onster's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2004
Tech Posts: 8,218
Photos: 58
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via Yahoo to dsm-onster

It's caled an inframe rebuild...


And it is relatively easy for our cars.

Read here for a rebuild suggestion:http://www.captain.norton.clara.net/cnn3sec14.html.

I have three cars that i've followed the above tactic with zero oil loss, blowby, sub factory compression. I checked all three blocks and they all came within "spec" and there was no visable scores or wear from "piston slap" proir to their rebuilds. This MAY NOT be your case as you may have washed your cylinder walls as previously mentioned. Then you'll need to bore so you'll need to hone anyway. So mic your block and then go from there.


____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 03:38 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

bryanwheat's Avatar
Car: 1997 ford f250
Registered: Aug 2004
Tech Posts: 6,315
Classifieds Rating: 36
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via AIM to bryanwheat

not really


Quote:
Originally Posted by phishin84
But would this lean condition damage the rings? I thought this would more likely damage the piston itself or the valves perhaps. I understand the idea of the cylinder getting washed because it would destroy the rings, but I have a feeling there is a leak before the injector not the injector leaking excess fuel into the cylinder. Very confusing. The shop wants $4500 to rebuild the engine which is ridiculous so i dont know what to do yet.
you know for sure that it is rings, a melted piston will lower your compression also, i bet your ring lands are broken. IT is very easy to replace a piston, or the rings.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 03:42 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TSIfreek's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2003
Tech Posts: 1,620
Photos: 1
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: TSIfreek is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to TSIfreek
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanwheat
you know for sure that it is rings, a melted piston will lower your compression also, i bet your ring lands are broken. IT is very easy to replace a piston, or the rings.
Broken rings and ring lands is a sign of heavy detionation. Running to lean will put a hole in the piston.


____________________________
Kris
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 09:59 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TERBOLASER's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2003
Tech Posts: 173
Classifieds Rating: 2
Reputation: TERBOLASER is more helpful than not
Quote:
Originally Posted by phishin84
Hey guys, i don't post much as i can usually find all my answers by looking around, but ive finally run into major car problems. I noticed some low compression in my engine. I tested it, and came out with 29-150-150-150.
I wet tested the #1 piston and it went from 29 to 91. This points to the rings I am pretty certain. Is it difficult to change the rings out with the engine still mounted? I don't have much money and I have even less time so i was wondering if this is even possible to do in a matter of a weekend.

Also, when I rev the engine I can smell fuel. Behind the #1 injector under the rail it is wet looking, unlike the area behind the other injectors. I can't see or feel a leak anywhere but it smells like it. Does it make sense that a fuel leak at the #1 injector would cause the rings to go if it is not getting adequate fuel?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

-Roy
Well to recap on that post actually a compression test just doesnt mean rings it means valves head gasket and rings. Do a leak down and if the compression goes up dramatically then you know its the rings if it doesnt think valves or head gasket but most likely rings

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 10:09 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

luvmygst's Avatar
Registered: Oct 2005
Tech Posts: 780
Photos: 1
Classifieds Rating: 1
Reputation: luvmygst is pretty helpful and trustworthyluvmygst is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster

I have three cars that i've followed the above tactic with zero oil loss, blowby, sub factory compression. I checked all three blocks and they all came within "spec" and there was no visable scores or wear from "piston slap" proir to their rebuilds. This MAY NOT be your case as you may have washed your cylinder walls as previously mentioned. Then you'll need to bore so you'll need to hone anyway. So mic your block and then go from there.
I am in the process of re-ringing my car right now. When you did these cars did you hone? I posted a question like this about a week ago and people thought I was crazy for not "breaking the glaze". But after researching I have just about decided to leave it. I am going back with iron rings so they will seat faster, do you have any suggestions?
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 07:41 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phishin84's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2005
Tech Posts: 18
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: phishin84 is an unknown
well i took my car to a shop today, and the mechanic is pretty sure its just a headgasket. This would explain why my coolant gets so pressurized and hot, and for the low compression. Hopefully thats all we will find. Im keeping my fingers crossed. As for my possible fuel leak, I am going to upgrade the lines, rail, and FPR. Anyone suggest any brands? I was thinking about the Aeromotive kit, seems like a good deal. Also, does anyone know how to test the injectors to see if they're still perfect? Thanks for the replies, guys!

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 07:51 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

totaleclipse_05's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2005
Tech Posts: 676
Classifieds Rating: 1
Reputation: totaleclipse_05 is pretty helpful and trustworthytotaleclipse_05 is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Talk to Xmasta, he recently did that. It was on a 420a, but he did it not too long ago.


____________________________
Mike

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 08:04 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

dsm-onster's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2004
Tech Posts: 8,218
Photos: 58
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via Yahoo to dsm-onster
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmygst
I am in the process of re-ringing my car right now. When you did these cars did you hone? I posted a question like this about a week ago and people thought I was crazy for not "breaking the glaze". But after researching I have just about decided to leave it. I am going back with iron rings so they will seat faster, do you have any suggestions?
I did not break the glaze on either. No honing on any. You must be able to proficient at determining the condition of the block before you decide. If the block needs a hone then it is because it is scored or out of round. Then, you should bore. It is all discussed in the link I added in my last post. Use only iron rings when you do not hone. Otherwise, you can use "chrome/moly" rings. But you don't have to then. They take longer to seat. Some different cases have quoted as much as 10,000 miles until they seat decent enough not to loose oil.

I also believe in the hard breakin process: short bursts of rapid acceleration (to 5000 rpms or so) followed by deceleration in gear. Use sae 30 weight oil (without detergents) for the 1st 100 miles then drop the oil and replace with the same. Go to 1000-1500 miles and replace with your choice of oil and filter (stick with a 10w-30).


____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2006, 08:10 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
DSM Wiseman
 

dsm-onster's Avatar
Registered: Jul 2004
Tech Posts: 8,218
Photos: 58
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Send a message via Yahoo to dsm-onster
Quote:
Originally Posted by phishin84
well i took my car to a shop today, and the mechanic is pretty sure its just a headgasket. This would explain why my coolant gets so pressurized and hot, and for the low compression. Hopefully thats all we will find. Im keeping my fingers crossed. As for my possible fuel leak, I am going to upgrade the lines, rail, and FPR. Anyone suggest any brands? I was thinking about the Aeromotive kit, seems like a good deal. Also, does anyone know how to test the injectors to see if they're still perfect? Thanks for the replies, guys!

I have the Aeromotive FPR kit and other than the fact that it got shipped with the wrong fuel rail fitting (i got a small bolt patern fitting, i think a 2g), it does great. Fuel pressure rises exactly 1:1 with boost at spool up and holds presure with out fluctuation with a wide range of adjustablilty.


____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 07:28 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

phishin84's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2005
Tech Posts: 18
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: phishin84 is an unknown
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsm-onster
I have the Aeromotive FPR kit and other than the fact that it got shipped with the wrong fuel rail fitting (i got a small bolt patern fitting, i think a 2g), it does great. Fuel pressure rises exactly 1:1 with boost at spool up and holds presure with out fluctuation with a wide range of adjustablilty.
Thank you! That's what I wanted to hear. I am planning on picking up that same kit. I am not sure about my injectors, however. The previous owner of my car I think said they were the evo 8 injectors but I really have no way of knowing. Anyone know how I could tell? If they are stockers I will just change them out to avoid any future problems and get some more flow.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006, 07:39 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

TSIfreek's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2003
Tech Posts: 1,620
Photos: 1
Classifieds Rating: 3
Reputation: TSIfreek is pretty helpful and trustworthy
Send a message via AIM to TSIfreek
The color on the top of the injector will be diffrent the 1g 450s are light blue. Not sure what the evos are maybe yellow???


____________________________
Kris
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

 

» Recent DSM Photo
» Current Poll
How many times have you been to the Shootout?
1 - 40.00%
168 Votes
2-5 - 41.67%
175 Votes
6-10 - 10.48%
44 Votes
11-15 - 3.10%
13 Votes
16-20 - 4.76%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 420
You may not vote on this poll.
» Online Users: 459
141 members and 318 guests
Most users ever online was 1,704, 03-17-2008 at 09:11 PM.
DSMtuners Main Sections
DSM Forums
DSM Regional Forums
DSM Builds/Journals
DSM Articles
DSM Tech Guides
DSM Upgrade Paths
DSM Parts Reviews
DSM Vendor Reviews

DSM Classifieds
DSM Parts Guides
DSM Photos
DSM Videos
DSM Timeslips
DSM Dyno Sheets
Shirts & Apparel
DSMtuners Decals

Advertising Info
Our Sponsors
Site Rules
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
Site FAQ
About Us
Contact Us

© 2014 DSMtuners.com - All Rights Reserved

DSMtuners is not affiliated with Diamond Star Motors. The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Mitsubishi Galant VR-4, and associated logos are trademarks of Diamond Star Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, and Chrysler Corporation. No, we do not hand out car sponsorships.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:02 AM.


Vendor Tools vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0