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Cylinder Head & Short Block: 4G63 cams, valvetrain, pistons, rods, stroker kits, 6-bolt swaps, hybrids, etc. Read this Forum's Strict Guidelines.

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Old 06-05-2003, 08:33 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #41 (permalink)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by GTM
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Youre obvously not on the same wavelength as me here.
"
1. When you degree cams you have to do it with a solid lifter adjusted to zero lash so hydrolic lifters have nothing to do with given cam specs.
"

Whoah there, When you degree a cam you got no lifter and you don't have to have a crank, chain/belt/gears any more than the grinder need them when he puts his blessing on his work.

What you do with that grind may influence where you introduce the crank angle but that has nothing to do with the profile. The crank angle comes under the heading of cam timing.

"
2. Normally when you get cam specs you get both the crank angle at which the valve should be open 1mm or 0.05" as well as what crank angle the valve should be closing and be at 1mm or 0.05". Thats how you degre the cams.
"

Don't know who is providing what info since it's been 30 years that I had custom grinds to my specifications, perhaps I didn't have the problem of adding and subtracting from 720.

"
The factory manual gives you the specs for opening and closing but they dont specify at what valve lift that is.
"

What's that .05" for if it isn't _open_ .05" off the seat????????!!!!!! And that is with the lash adjuster filled with oil. If you don't do that then any timing tweaking you do will be off if you are indexing when the valve is on the ramp.

"
Therefore the specs that they give you are realy useless. Unless they just give you these opening and closing angles at the 1mm or 0.05" valve lift and just assume that since its the standard they dont have to specify it.
"

I've not thought about it but that's probably the rock of #3. It is a standard which will cause the engine to perform and meet smog laws. Since the cams are not symetrical don't expect the exhaust to be .05" on the close.


"
3. After you deck your block and/or head your deck height will be different and your cam timing will be off
"

Absolutely not the timing, the relationship between taking .10"-20" off will not be adjustable in the current design. You can' split hairs with that cog belt.

"
so cam degreeing is something you should do in order to get it back to spec and it has nothing to do with smog and emmisions,
"

That is nonsense, do the profile/timing if you want the crank attached. Put a headgasket under it and do it again, put another gasket and do it again, I'd almost bet dollars to donuts you can't even measure the difference. And most certainly can't make any kind of adjustment..... Just look at where the belt is introduced on the cam gear, put your feeler gauge alongside and see what the difference is to the next tooth... it ain't gonna happen. Sure it's introduced at an angle but that's not going to amount to a hill of beans.


"
4. Since I am building a 4G64/4G63 Hybrid, I will have 6mm extra deck on the block and I will Have To degree the cams for the cam timing to be correct so I have no Choise but to degree them.
"
No again, what you have to do is set the timing CORRECTLY, if you think you are going to improve anything by retarding the lift so you don't foul valve and piston think again.

"
So After all this, I hope that you are on the same wavelength as me.
"

Yegads, I don't care which way you argue the point, it ain't gonna happen. Set the cam timing CAREFULLY so you don't bump valves, other than that you can't make something happen when it's just not there.

Now if you are changing the grind then get the vernier sprockets, if you want to experiment with valve timing get the vernier sprockets but you are NOT going to change anything with stock items.


GTM
Well You have proven to me that we are definitely not on the same wavelength. What youre talking about is profiling a cam not degreeing a cam. Degreeing a cam is when you set the cam at the CORRECT angle to the crank so that it is perfectly set at the position the factory specified. You do need adjustable cam gears which I thought I mentioned. You will need a solid lifter to do it, you will need a degree wheel and a dial indicator. Contrary to your answers to my questions, deck height will affect the cams being not properly timed a specially in my case when I got extra 6mm of deck. I will need to make sure that my cams are degreed properly. Trust me stock 4G63 cam gears will not work, since you will never be able to lign up the marks properly when you put the timing belt on. Once again, I dont want to change the valve timng at all I just want to set the valve timing at the factory setting.
Note that HKS 272/272 cam specs give you the crank angles of when the cam opens and closes at 1mm lift (first link). The stock cam specs just give you the angle but do not specify at what lift those specs are. This is the information required to degree cams. You also seem like a nice person, but I dont think you understand or just arent on the same wavelength when it comes to the required cam specs for the degreeing process. It seems to me that you are confusting the terms degreeing with maybe profiling a cam.

Enjoy the links, which should shed some light on what I'm after.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/e...72camspecs.gif

http://www.cranecams.com/instruction...ing/degree.htm

http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultim...=002277#000021



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Old 06-05-2003, 09:26 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #42 (permalink)
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Lets assume it's seat timing (The moment the valve begins to leave the valve seat). Since you have a dial indicator, a solid lifter, and a degree wheel I would assume you can measure the angles and verify the specs. Even if the actual timing is off you can verify the duration and record the profile. If the number match your golden. If not then I suspect you'll have to do some creative matching based on what you recorded and decide what the best fit is.

Someone tell me if my logic is flawed here.

Steve
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:40 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #43 (permalink)
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Steve!

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too. I will be degreeing the cams this weekend, since I got the specs of the open/close angles, I will just repeat the procedure for different lifts and figure out what the specs are actually for. Someone else on another board mentioned that the stock cam specs are likely for the actual seat angle somewhere around 0.0005" and not at 1mm or 0.05" lift so that what I'll try. I think your reasoning is right on and not flawed at all. I will post the results on here for anyone else who will be trying this in the future so that they dont have to wonder.

Phew, I'm really glad that someone finally understands what I'm talking about.


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Old 06-05-2003, 10:01 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #44 (permalink)
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One thing you can do to get in the ballpark for setting the starting cam timing is make up some degree wheels for the cams too. The intake dowel pin should be 0 degrees and the exhaust pin at 3 degrees 5 min when the crank is at 0. That then the cam gear timing marks should align.

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Old 06-05-2003, 10:03 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by steve

Someone tell me if my logic is flawed here.
Steve
Nope, you got it right. The problem is the cog interval doesn't allow for splitting hairs on the overlap. If you jump a tooth on the intake using the stock grind it's history. The fact we have been shown a marketing blurb instead of his actual setup would suggest this is an excersize in writing skills rather than doing the job. And now a followup with millionths of an inch... yegads... wish I could afford that tool. I wouldn't waste my time since nothing can be done to change the opening and closing timing unless you add the vernier cog gears.
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Old 06-05-2003, 11:09 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTM
The problem is the cog interval doesn't allow for splitting hairs on the overlap. ... I wouldn't waste my time since nothing can be done to change the opening and closing timing unless you add the vernier cog gears.
He's got vernier cog gears, their just called adjustable cam sprockets by everyone who sells them for DSM's. Like you both point out, that's the only way to make up for the difference in height between the crank and cams from a 4G64 2.4L block and the 4G63 2.0L block or to account for milling the block/head on a stock setup. IIRC they have something like a full tooth in either direction of adjustment.

The millionths of an inch lift spec was given to him to illustrate the point of seat timing vs. at a given lift. Simply translated it means at the moment of measurable valve opening. The guys over at NABR are known to exaggerate for effect in order to make a point.

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Old 06-05-2003, 12:12 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by steve
He's got vernier cog gears, their just called adjustable cam sprockets by everyone who sells them for DSM's.

IIRC they have something like a full tooth in either direction of adjustment.

Steve
Actually they are adjustable by up to 10 degrees in both the advanced and retarded directions. So its more than 1 tooth of adjustability. You can see the edge of one in this picture from John Shepard's web page.



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Old 06-12-2003, 06:55 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #48 (permalink)
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Well I degreed the stock cams a few days ago. The quoted open and close angles in the Factory Service Manual are for actual valve seat timing not at any specific lift (ie 1mm). So its confirmed guys, the specs are for actual seat timing.


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Old 12-03-2003, 08:51 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Well I degreed the stock cams a few days ago. The quoted open and close angles in the Factory Service Manual are for actual valve seat timing not at any specific lift (ie 1mm). So its confirmed guys, the specs are for actual seat timing.
Here, I'll bring it to the top of the list by adding this post.

Chris, perhaps this can get stashed so it doesn't get lost, there were a lot of person hours that went into developing the thread with a lot of professionals contributing. If someone wants to re-write giving credits and put in one of the permanent forums that would best serve the members.

I know you got your hands full with all the gremlins running around. Maybe it should have it's own heading for it of course isn't complete if you want to know about how to nitride your own cams.

Cheers,
GTM

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Old 08-01-2004, 09:38 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #50 (permalink)
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Duration of stock turbo cam?


what is the duration of the stock turbo intake cam? what is the lift ?

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Old 08-02-2004, 03:26 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #51 (permalink)
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stock cam spes


Interesting ? Turbo cams need their own qualities. HKS seems to be the cams to have. has anyone done any testing? What about other suppliers? mark

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Old 08-02-2004, 06:42 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #52 (permalink)
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1990-1991 Valve timing

Intake valve
Opens (BTDC) 26” (Non-Turbo)
21’ (Turbo)

Closes (ATDC) 46” (Non-Turbo)
51’ (Turbo)

Exhaust valve
Opens (BTDC) 55"
Closes (ATDC) 9"

INTAKE
35.493 (1.3974) limit 34.993 (1.3777)
35.200 (1.3858) limit 34.700 (1.3661)

Exhaust
35.200 (1.3858) limit 34.700 (1.3661)
35.493 (1.3974) limit 34.993 (1.3777)

Valve timing 1995-1999
Intake valve
Opens 21"BTDC
Closes 51”ATDC

Exhaust valve
Opens 57”BTDC
Closes 15”ATDC

Height 1995-1999
34.91 (1.3744) for both intake and exhaust

At the end of the cam is a stamped letter (usually)

valve timing - all in Degrees
cam ID mark (A)(B.C)(D.C)(EA)
Intake
Open BTDC 26” 21” 21” 16”
Close ABDC 46” 43” 51” 48”
Exhaust valve
Open BBDC 55” 57” 57” 55”
Close ATDC 3” 15” 15” 9”

Intake Lift mm(in) Service limit
Id mark: A,D 35.49 (1.3972) 34.99 (1.3776)
Id mark: B,C,E,F 35.20 (1.3858) 34.70 (1.3661)

Exhaust
Id mark: A 35.20 (1.3858) 34.70 (1.3661)
Id mark: C 35.49 (1.3972) 34.99 (1.3776)
Id mark E,F 35.91 (1.3744) 34.41 (1.3547)


92-94 should be readily available as well.


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Old 08-02-2004, 09:05 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #53 (permalink)
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cam specs


Something does not make sense and it's probably me! The way i read the '90/'91 figures the cam has the intake open 72 degrees and the exhaust 64 degrees. Please help me understand. Is it possible some of the openings and/or closings should be at BOTTOM dead center? Mark
If the closings were after BOTTOM dead center i get 252 degrees for the intake and 244 degrees for the exhaust.

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Old 01-05-2006, 08:33 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #54 (permalink)
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Hey, I bought a set of cams said to be out of a 94 awd and I want to make shure they are the high lift cams. Mine are labled D exhaust and G intake. I did not see those on the list. Does any body know what cams these are and what lift and duration?
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Old 01-06-2006, 06:03 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #55 (permalink)
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Well according to Haynes again, if they are indeed a set of 1994 cams then they should measure as follows.

The following applies to 1993 and later 2.0L engines

Intake
non-turbo and turbo with manual trans
standard 1.3974
service limit 1.3777

turbo with auto trans
standard 1.3858
service limit 1.3661

Exhaust
non-turbo and turbo with auto trans
standard 1.3858
service limit 1.3661

turbo with manual trans
standard 1.3974
service limit 1.3777

Just use a set of dial calipars and measure the lobes on your cams from nose (point of lobe) to tail ( base circle opposite nose)
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Old 01-09-2006, 11:25 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #56 (permalink)
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Ok, thanks for the reply and I plan on doing that. Also from my understanding the 2g cams have less lift and duration than 1g cams period right? I just want to make shure these are not 2g cams. thanks!
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Old 01-16-2006, 05:05 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #57 (permalink)
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I measured tthe cams and I came out with 1.378 intake and 1.375 exhaust so it does not look like they are the high lift cams afterall. I however do have a 1.3974 lift intake cam and 1.3858 exhaust cam to put in it.
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Old 01-17-2006, 08:04 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #58 (permalink)
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Question

Comp Cam identification


I recently bought a car that was supposed to have Comp Cams, I recieved a reciept for the cams, however, I would like to check to make sure. Is there any kind of stamp or raise markings on the cams I will be able to identify once the valve cover is off?

Thanks for the help in advance

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Old 01-17-2006, 08:50 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxrtalon
I recently bought a car that was supposed to have Comp Cams, I recieved a reciept for the cams, however, I would like to check to make sure. Is there any kind of stamp or raise markings on the cams I will be able to identify once the valve cover is off?

Thanks for the help in advance
Comp marks them with a 101-200. That's how mine were marked at least. There are more marks and numbers on them but that's probably the easiest.

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Old 01-18-2006, 08:34 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #60 (permalink)
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thanks.......I figured there would be markings of some sort on them. Would them be near the cam gear side or would it matter?

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