Not everyone is single you know. However when my wife finishes her schooling (about 11 months to go) and starts her career we should together be bringing in a six figure income. Until then however my family is living off my 28k or so a yr. So money gets tight at times when trying to mod your car. I wouldn't dream of taking something like this on without the parts and a grand in my pocket. (although I already have an externally gated 16g lol) Still my family comes before my car. So unlike some of you it's not as simple as living off romen noddles and saving every dime.
I don't have a family and I live with my GF so I have what we at my job call TINK(Two Incomes No Kids) but I have two jobs so if my gf didn't have a job I could still afford to mod my car. I do understand that what's good for one is not good for all though. Save up your pennies and be another dsmer to help break the mold.
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Sean aka Slippi
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Wow, interesting build. I'm glad to hear it is working. I wonder how this compares to Ray's dual charger system as far as efficiencies and throttle response. I'm guessing you still get the normal lag of a 16g, minimal as that is. When are you building boost?
I wonder if it would be practical to go with an even smaller first stage turbo like a 13b, or even T25, to start spooling that much sooner, say mid-to-low 2k rpm range. Also, what about swapping a 6cm housing onto the 16g for quicker spool? I'd see the trade-offs as potentially loosing some peak horsepower but stretching the torque band that much further down the rpm range. Would it be worth it? Just some things to explore. Again, great work and thanks for sharing.
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Nick - AWD turbo swapped USDM 7g Galant
Wow, interesting build. I'm glad to hear it is working. I wonder how this compares to Ray's dual charger system as far as efficiencies and throttle response. I'm guessing you still get the normal lag of a 16g, minimal as that is. When are you building boost?
I wonder if it would be practical to go with an even smaller first stage turbo like a 13b, or even T25, to start spooling that much sooner, say mid-to-low 2k rpm range. Also, what about swapping a 6cm housing onto the 16g for quicker spool? I'd see the trade-offs as potentially loosing some peak horsepower but stretching the torque band that much further down the rpm range. Would it be worth it? Just some things to explore. Again, great work and thanks for sharing.
An interesting thought, about doing anything you can to get more torque around 2k, but what I took from RayPeter's experiments is that our cars really don't enjoy boosting at such a low rpm - but who knows, maybe that's simply a tuning issue that can be ironed out.
Sick stuff Paul, man this thread is long and has some very interesting "discussions" in it. Hopefully I can make it out sometime later this summer for another WMDSM meet at Jon's place for some compound turbo love and maybe another "let's destroy a jeep" fiesta. Looking forward to seeing some vids!
Our gear ratios don't like toque at 1500rpms, not our motors. . . torque is torque.
So then if we could build 15+psi by 1k, the 4g63 would just eat it for lunch and we'd all be smiling from our newly enhanced low-end torque gains? I probably misinterpreted the information.
He was lugging too low where the power was because he couldn't find the right shift point to use the power down low. That's what I got from it. I didn't see any down side to full boost at 1800rpms that he claimed he got. . .
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Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Is that an aftermarket supra fuel pump or a stocker? I have a working brand new supra fuel pump thats been just collecting dust over the years I was going to use on my 98 GST but never did.
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-Josh
1994 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
Guys you must have missed the boat when looking at the pics and reading this thread. THIS IS NOT A EXPENSIVE THING TO DO!!! The reason you don't have see it more often is because it takes actually understand beyond this is a turbo that is a wastagte to do. It cost Paul like he said less then the price of a new 16g. Your telling me you couldn't afford to buy a 16g? Say you can't fabricate, which I can't either, all you do is get a local shop to make you a manifold stup like Pauls's to incorporate two turbos a smaller one feeding into a larger one and your set. To be honest if I dind't build my car to spool so fast by taking away a lot of rotating mass then I would look into this.
Its only the price of the 16g because he already had all the stuff and did all the fabrication himself..
Having something like that made alone would cost a lot more than a 16g, not to mention it includes a 16g so it is redundant to state that a setup requiring a 16g cost less than purchasing a 16g...
At the end of the day its a great way to do something new, but regardless for time and money which for anyone else would include purchasing the turbo and fabing the setup how does one justify the gains? As I stated before (and still stands) for the amount of time, money, and effort it would cost to reproduce you could build a car using a single turbo setup to perform similarly with the headache of only 1 turbo.
The main thing you have to get fabricated would be the manifold. A 16g is not expensive at most this would be a 1500-2k job. You name me a turbo kit including manifold turbo lines ect. that you can put together that will spool as fast as a 16g and have top end like a big turbo setup? Even a stroker would not net you gains like this especially since you would be limiting how high you could rev unlike this setup. And not saying I could do this but this is not something that ONLY paul can do. If you are one of the guys who can weld and fab up a manifold which actually seems to be more and more these days, and you understand the goal of the build you can replicate something like this for again a lot cheaper as the bulk of this build is the manifold.
Both our builds have more money into them and neither of us will have a powerband like him. Not that we won't make more power but still the goal of this isn't to make the fastest car possible it's to make the most street friendly and widest powerband possible.
The main thing you have to get fabricated would be the manifold. A 16g is not expensive at most this would be a 1500-2k job. You name me a turbo kit including manifold turbo lines ect. that you can put together that will spool as fast as a 16g and have top end like a big turbo setup? Even a stroker would not net you gains like this especially since you would be limiting how high you could rev unlike this setup. And not saying I could do this but this is not something that ONLY paul can do. If you are one of the guys who can weld and fab up a manifold which actually seems to be more and more these days, and you understand the goal of the build you can replicate something like this for again a lot cheaper as the bulk of this build is the manifold.
Both our builds have more money into them and neither of us will have a powerband like him. Not that we won't make more power but still the goal of this isn't to make the fastest car possible it's to make the most street friendly and widest powerband possible.
My power band with the shot I will be running would be even greater than his, although running nitrous makes it less pratical. However I have built multiple 50trim/30r turbos especially on strokers that would have a larger powerband from start to finish.
Like I said before, I have to show him the due respect for piecing this one off masterpiece on his own. As a sheetmetal worker/fabricator I can appreciate his work, but people acting like its some sort of revolution are simply misguided.
I dont think its any surprise that a car with a drag setup and a nitrous kit could make bigger numbers. but the whole point of this build is to have a huge power band and make boost numbers that our cars have never before seen so early in the rev range and to do it for cheap on a street car. the fact that he is doing all this without a nitrous kit, without a stoker kit, and is making a turbo setup completely different than anything that has been done to these cars yet means yes it is revolutionary.
revolutionary: 1: markedly new or introducing radical change
also i went to look up your setup on your profile because i was interested in just exactly was you build to get this wide powerband on nitrous... but all it said was you're a jigalo from Sacramento with 90 tsi... might wanna actually put some info in their so we know what your taking about...
That aside maybe some people WANT to keep there 2L engine a 2L engine. Maybe we still want a wide power band without using nitrous oxide. And while yes a large single turbo setup may be able to produce more peak HP. Peak HP is however often useless on the street. Street, circuit or autox style driving a wide usable powerband is much more effective, and fun.
Also sometimes just sometimes if you want your engine / setup to have a particular asset / response you just have to spend more coin. And seeing as the OP is looking for a particular feature / asset from his setup he went out did the research, invested his time money etc. And now has what he has. Just because some setups may have stronger point such as peak hp does not always mean it is even relevant.
Yeah saying you can do it with nitrous is wackjuice and old news man. Stop hating and call it like it is. A 50trim with a stroker is not going to make power like a this setup and a big turbo car with nitrous is not even close to as practical as this. What are gonna do spray every time you want to get into boost?
As I stated before (and still stands) for the amount of time, money, and effort it would cost to reproduce you could build a car using a single turbo setup to perform similarly with the headache of only 1 turbo.
I can't think of a single turbo that will net me the same results as this set-up. Of course, using nitrous everytime I spool my turbo on the street is out of the question. The torqueband feels amazing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstryyder
Any updates Paul? I am just waiting to hear about how this thing is rockin' on the streets? =)
You get to fine tuning it yet or anything?
I picked up a new pan about a week ago, welded some fitting onto it, installed it, and what do you know - more leaks. The rails on this pan were bent and deformed and I thought I could straighten them out. So, I bought, yet another pan. I just got it welded up and installed last night. This one is almost brand new - still has the sticker on it. I should have any oil leaking issues anymore.
I also installed a 5-bar MAP sensor a few days ago. And I have my LC-1 wiseband half-way installed. And there's a small fuel leak somehwere near the pumps that I need to investigate. I'm hoping to get it all finished up tonight and take it out tomorrow for some tune time.
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Is that an aftermarket supra fuel pump or a stocker? I have a working brand new supra fuel pump thats been just collecting dust over the years I was going to use on my 98 GST but never did.
It's a Denso 280 lph for the Supra. Seems like a pretty nice pump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artago
Are those oil return bungs on the oil pan -10AN?
Yup.
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
It's a Denso 280 lph for the Supra. Seems like a pretty nice pump.
Yup.
After I read that, I grabbed the part number off of it and saw some kick butt reviews. That its capable of 390lph at 18v. At 14v (our car's operating voltage) its around 290lph... and is completely silent over the sound of the exhaust and any other sounds. I put it up for sale on CraigsList and RSW... But if it doesn't sell, I might just sell my WineBro255Lph and install this and use the money from the winebro for a nice AFPR.
I don't remember seeing anything. But what do you plan on doing about crank case ventaliation?
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-Josh
1994 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
I don't remember seeing anything. But what do you plan on doing about crank case ventaliation?
Down the road, I plan to weld some -10 fittings onto a spare VC that I have laying around. Then I'll shave it and powdercoat it. I plan to run a sealed catch can and use the intake tube as a vacuum source to help evacuate the crankcase.
But for now, I'll just continue to use my little 3/8" lines running to the ground. I have a pretty fresh longblock in the car, so there isn't much blow-by. I should be OK for the time being.
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
^ Shit thats all I am doing right now, although I do plan to do what your talking about but I only average 130psi across and I am not having any real blow by problems...then again I also am not running NEAR as much airflow/boost as you are.
Working the gremlins out of the car right now. After my third oil pan in two weeks, I got the oil leaks fixed. Now, I'm waiting for parts from McMaster-Carr to correct the fuel leak.
I know I keep saying this - but I should be driving it very soon. Videos and logs soon!
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-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
After a few times swapping plug wires, it fired right up. It's in dire need of a tune, and it's idling a bit high - ohh and that pesky belt squeel again... But it runs!
No offense, and I mean this in the nicest possible way . . . but I freakin hate you right now. Na, Just kidding, you're my new hero.
Better to be safe than sorry Paul !
After reading the hurry ups posted, I'm not posting my build
until it is running. Just take pics along the way.
Cheers !
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--Aldo
LSD Auto & LSD rear. Switchable FWD/AWD
Isn't there a better valve than that for the first WG? It just seems like the extra backpressure you're getting from that restrictive WG is a waste of torque. Also, do you think you'll have trouble getting all four cylinders running the same? Seems like #1 and #2 will have less backpressure after the first WG opens.
Oh, and nice build! Wish I had your tools and skills.
Until then however my family is living off my 28k or so a yr. So money gets tight at times when trying to mod your car. I wouldn't dream of taking something like this on without the parts and a grand in my pocket. (although I already have an externally gated 16g lol) Still my family comes before my car. So unlike some of you it's not as simple as living off romen noddles and saving every dime.
lol yea to the op if he needs a t25 ill take one for the team and trade him for his 16g
Na, Just kidding, you're my new hero.
