Well, welds aside, I do like them and think it's nice that some one is working on them (i'm sorta working on a 2g set myself, but am soley in the prototype phase right now)
THe thread in part scares the crap outta me though. There's just not enough meat there in the threaded area for me to trust my life or a big repair bill on the car to such a short threaded area.
Knowing the related components and the stresses that come along with welding these arms, I would have to ask if they are heat treated and stress relieved (and i mean properly, not heating them with a torch till they are red and letting them cool, that only softens the material)
MY suggestions are
1.) Removable ball joints
2.) A better method to install the bushings - maybe make the part that passes through the bushing solid and permanently attacthed to the rest of the arm with only a bolt in the end with a large thick washer to hold the bushing onto the main solid rod that passes through it
3.) heat treat the parts before using them (or selling them )
4.) A lot nicer welds with a lot less filler... 4130 chro-molly doesn't like a lot of heat, nor does it like to have gobs of filler on it. The weld at teh center needs to be no bigger than the thickness of the material, and the toes of the weld should smoothly blend with no under-cutting or bulging edges (undercut toes = too hot, bulging toes = too cold)
NOw a note on #4.. what filler rod is being used? DO NOT use 4130 filler, he needs to use ER70-S2 or ER80-S2 filler rod. the reason being that 4130 filler is more brittle and harder, putting more stresses on the part from contraction when cooling. IF he uses a softer ER70-s2 or the Er80 the weld will be strong, but it sill be softer and more apt to give/bend rtather than to crack or break
When welding bike and car chassis parts we only use the 70 or 80 series fillers, i was given this tip a long time ago when i first started working with chro-mo. Even most top fuel cars use a softer filler like ER70/80 over 4130 for the exact reasons i gave. You will get less distortion and a part that's less likely to crack if you just make this one simple switch... Now, in case he needs to know or don't know.. the ER70 is rated at 70,000 PSI tensile strength, the ER80 is 80k pounds.
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tell your friend to sell his welder. I don’t want to read about some pore guy/girl losing there life on the highway due to a very pore design failing.
Btw they don’t look lighter then stock?
+1
I work in the insurance industry and one of my jobs is to find risk and liability. This part is a HUGE liability, if an intake manifold weld fails (which is under 0 load) big deal the car doesn't work, if this control arm fails the disasterous possiblities are endless. Have you ever heard of a stock control arm failing? NO, however 2gs are notorious for having ball joint failures and when I worked at Performance Mitsu in Cincy I saw first hand the kind of damage they could do. I have never posted anything negative about peoples ideas or parts on this website, but these are dangerous and could kill someone. All of you retards that think welds are bullet proof are ignorant. The last thing I need at 90mph in a corner failing is a stupid control arm. Not worth the price, not worth the risk, just plain not worth it. I am trying to warn others of a potentially danegerous piece. If you can't see that then put it on your car and hope for the best, some things are best left alone.
You = ignorant. Anyone who understands welding and welds, knows that a proper weld will not break. The weld should always be stronger than the base material (proper filler metal selection) and most failures will be right outside of the weld zone. Having someone who can do aerospace or code quality work do these would be ideal to make sure that there is full penetration through out the whole weld.
Great, thanks for backing up my whole point, I guess it would be so much better having the metal around the weld break, WOW I feel so much better knowing that. You SIR are a fcuking retard.
Great, thanks for backing up my whole point, I guess it would be so much better having the metal around the weld break, WOW I feel so much better knowing that. You SIR are a fcuking retard.
Later Dr Turbo
No one said this was the finished product and was going to be replicated and sold. That's why Paul asked for opinions on the design. Unless you have ways to help make it better or are going to make some yourself STFU
Great, thanks for backing up my whole point, I guess it would be so much better having the metal around the weld break, WOW I feel so much better knowing that. You SIR are a fcuking retard.
Later Dr Turbo
Well then you must be real comfortable in your car seeing as alot of the suspension on it from the factory has welds that hold it in place. You sir are the one that is a ####ing retard.
Don't know the big deal with the welds. It was already stated that his welder had a break down and wasn't working properly and that it was put together for viewing purposes. I'm sure the final product will look much better than that and that the welds will be professional. Keep working on it and making improvements and when the final product is done and tested I'm sure you'll have lots of support.
More people fabricating parts for DSMs = better. That's how I see it. starion4g63, I look forward to seeing your products.
We find out real quick what products are worth our money. If the finished product is worthless, the company goes out of business fast. I think it's common sense, although maybe I'm wrong, that these types of parts get tested throughly before production. Any possible failures will happen there, where the situation is more controlled, and less dangerous. DSMers no longer buy the cheap, garbage parts..
BTW, this is a great post below, exactly what the OP needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboglenn
MY suggestions are
1.) Removable ball joints
2.) A better method to install the bushings - maybe make the part that passes through the bushing solid and permanently attacthed to the rest of the arm with only a bolt in the end with a large thick washer to hold the bushing onto the main solid rod that passes through it
3.) heat treat the parts before using them (or selling them )
4.) A lot nicer welds with a lot less filler... 4130 chro-molly doesn't like a lot of heat, nor does it like to have gobs of filler on it. The weld at teh center needs to be no bigger than the thickness of the material, and the toes of the weld should smoothly blend with no under-cutting or bulging edges (undercut toes = too hot, bulging toes = too cold)
NOw a note on #4.. what filler rod is being used? DO NOT use 4130 filler, he needs to use ER70-S2 or ER80-S2 filler rod. the reason being that 4130 filler is more brittle and harder, putting more stresses on the part from contraction when cooling. IF he uses a softer ER70-s2 or the Er80 the weld will be strong, but it sill be softer and more apt to give/bend rtather than to crack or break
When welding bike and car chassis parts we only use the 70 or 80 series fillers, i was given this tip a long time ago when i first started working with chro-mo. Even most top fuel cars use a softer filler like ER70/80 over 4130 for the exact reasons i gave. You will get less distortion and a part that's less likely to crack if you just make this one simple switch... Now, in case he needs to know or don't know.. the ER70 is rated at 70,000 PSI tensile strength, the ER80 is 80k pounds.
Here's another picture that shows how the larger bushing attaches:
I would suggest using a solid rod inserted into and welded to the tube then a thick washer, bushing, washer, bolt. That is to much stress for the bolt threads to handle. Also I would not fish cut both ends just one. I would also make the upper tube larger and fit the lower tube to it that way your not compramising the strenght of the tube. Like Glenn stated moly tubing doesn't like that much heat.
Great, thanks for backing up my whole point, I guess it would be so much better having the metal around the weld break, WOW I feel so much better knowing that. You SIR are a fcuking retard.
Later Dr Turbo
que? I proved nothing for you. You said when the welds fail and I am telling you that a properly welded part will not fail at the weld. You are also ignorant if you think that chromoly is weaker than factory stamped sheet metal. That being said, you will have a tough time breaking the chromoly at any point on a part. It is clear from reading your posts that you have zero understanding of metalurgy or any manufacturing process for that mater. Thanks for the personal insult, really shows your class and level of maturity.
The more I think about this, the more I think this won't really benefit anyone but the serious DSM racer - road racer/autoxer or drag racer. Which means they need to be designed with those groups in mind. I seriously doubt more than a few non-racers will spend the money on these anyway. The only group even discussing wanting these made are the road racers. There really isn't much point in designing these for the street in the DSM world.
____________________________
-Chris
FP3150-powered road racer!
Please use the "Site Problems" forum or the "Tech" forums instead of sending "help" questions directly to me or the Moderators/Wisemen.
The more I think about this, the more I think this won't really benefit anyone but the serious DSM racer - road racer/autoxer or drag racer. Which means they need to be designed with those groups in mind. I seriously doubt more than a few non-racers will spend the money on these anyway. The only group even discussing wanting these made are the road racers. There really isn't much point in designing these for the street in the DSM world.
DSM owner = guy trying to take a cheap car and go expensive car fast
That's why the regular DSM owner won't buy into this.
This can benefit the regular person since that lower ball joint is a complete arm replacement at the dealer or if you wanted buy some ball joint that will fit in it, and pay to have it pressed in.
Or you can have removable threaded spherical rod ends with seals.
I also don't understand the defense on this part if you are going to potentially market a product why did you put up some poorly welded one in the first place? You want to show people you can weld period.
Jeez... I take a break from the computer this weekend, and look what happens to this thread. Hollow criticism is useless, guys. If you can't post like an adult, then don't post at all. Thanks to everyone else for their input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300dollarGSX
I like it. Is it the same length as stock? How does the ball joint angle look when the wheel is mounted and there is vehicle weight on it? I'm assuming he used a press in joint for space reasons, or was it just easier? Will there be provisions to use the sway bar?
Yes, same length. Ball joint angle should be the same as the OE piece. It uses a factory ball joint and circlip. There will be sway bar mounts attached on the final product, unless you specifiy that you don't need them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boostjunki84
To the OP, are there any plans to make these for the 2g guys as well?
Yes, eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidShipCivic
I also don't understand the defense on this part if you are going to potentially market a product why did you put up some poorly welded one in the first place? You want to show people you can weld period.
This isn't 100% finished. It isn't being marketed yet. This thread has nothing to do with commercial sale or distribution. This is a prototype design, and we're looking for advice for changes, improvements, etc...
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
DSM owner = guy trying to take a cheap car and go expensive car fast
That's why the regular DSM owner won't buy into this.
Which is why these should be designed for the DSM racers, not the average DSM owner. That means don't just make a stock replacement that will utilize the same bushings and ball joints. Very few DSMers will buy them that way, and for good reason. Only those DSMers into racing have asked for a product like this. These need to be designed with solid bushings, the option for aftermarket ball joints, and some way to adjust roll center to control bump steer. For the drag race guys, it needs to be really light with no adjustment. There are not many benefits for a street driven car to justify the purchase for the average DSMer. And unfortunately, I think you'll see that with sales.
With that said, I don't necessarily think we need the level of adjustment of something like the photo below (Evo 8/9 lower arms) but we do need something more than just a stock tubular replacement.
I've sent this feedback to Paul's friends. I'm hoping they'll seriously consider it.
____________________________
-Chris
FP3150-powered road racer!
Please use the "Site Problems" forum or the "Tech" forums instead of sending "help" questions directly to me or the Moderators/Wisemen.
Well, welds aside, I do like them and think it's nice that some one is working on them (i'm sorta working on a 2g set myself, but am soley in the prototype phase right now)
THe thread in part scares the crap outta me though. There's just not enough meat there in the threaded area for me to trust my life or a big repair bill on the car to such a short threaded area.
Knowing the related components and the stresses that come along with welding these arms, I would have to ask if they are heat treated and stress relieved (and i mean properly, not heating them with a torch till they are red and letting them cool, that only softens the material)
MY suggestions are
1.) Removable ball joints
2.) A better method to install the bushings - maybe make the part that passes through the bushing solid and permanently attacthed to the rest of the arm with only a bolt in the end with a large thick washer to hold the bushing onto the main solid rod that passes through it
3.) heat treat the parts before using them (or selling them )
4.) A lot nicer welds with a lot less filler... 4130 chro-molly doesn't like a lot of heat, nor does it like to have gobs of filler on it. The weld at teh center needs to be no bigger than the thickness of the material, and the toes of the weld should smoothly blend with no under-cutting or bulging edges (undercut toes = too hot, bulging toes = too cold)
NOw a note on #4.. what filler rod is being used? DO NOT use 4130 filler, he needs to use ER70-S2 or ER80-S2 filler rod. the reason being that 4130 filler is more brittle and harder, putting more stresses on the part from contraction when cooling. IF he uses a softer ER70-s2 or the Er80 the weld will be strong, but it sill be softer and more apt to give/bend rtather than to crack or break
When welding bike and car chassis parts we only use the 70 or 80 series fillers, i was given this tip a long time ago when i first started working with chro-mo. Even most top fuel cars use a softer filler like ER70/80 over 4130 for the exact reasons i gave. You will get less distortion and a part that's less likely to crack if you just make this one simple switch... Now, in case he needs to know or don't know.. the ER70 is rated at 70,000 PSI tensile strength, the ER80 is 80k pounds.
Thanks for the advice, Glenn. I wish others could take a note from your book and learn how to offer constructive criticism like this.
I'm not sure what filler was used, but I'll find out later today.
The balljoints are easily removable and replaceable. The Moog replacement can be had from Summit for around $20-30.
Do you really think heat treating chromoly is necessary? I've never heard of other cro-mo pieces being heat treated...
Thanks again for the post, Glenn.
____________________________
-Paul Volk-
'99 GSX
'91 TSI
Last edited by 99gst_racer; 02-09-2009 at 09:16 AM.
Reason: typo
Thanks for the advice, Glenn. I wish others could take a note from your book and learn how to offer constructive criticism like this.
I'm not sure what fill was used, but I'll find out later today.
The balljoints are easily removable and replaceable. The Moog replacement can be had from Summit for around $20-30.
Do you really think heat treating chromoly is necessary? I've never heard of other cro-mo pieces being heat treated...
Thanks again for the post, Glenn.
heat treating metals probably won't be the best option. It might make it a little stiffer but you do so at the expense of the metal having a little give when being stressed. A better option would be picking the proper wall tubing to take the load that these items will see. I would rather have a part that is a little heavier and ductile vs a part that is lighter and more brittle that could break if i hit a pot hole or drive off in corner 1 and hit a rut in the grass.
Thanks for the advice, Glenn. I wish others could take a note from your book and learn how to offer constructive criticism like this.
I'm not sure what fill was used, but I'll find out later today.
The balljoints are easily removable and replaceable. The Moog replacement can be had from Summit for around $20-30.
Do you really think heat treating chromoly is necessary? I've never heard of other cro-mo pieces being heat treated...
Thanks again for the post, Glenn.
Only trying to help... you'll never hear me downplay some one's fab work as i love to do it myself and love to see what others are making as well
Replaceable ball joints is a BIG plus in my book.
As for heat treating, i didn't mean to harden the part.. only to relieve welding stresses!... Completely necessary, no.. but if you could see the stresses being forced on your materials just as they sit ( not on the car and loaded) you would defintitely want to heat treat. CHro-mo is very hard and brittle and the twists and contortion from the filler metal contracting will really put a lot of un-due force on the part before it ever goes into service.
Have the guy weld a flat square out of 4130 tubing, then take a saw and cut clean through any bar on that square, Once you're through the thing will POP and twist to where it wants to be and you'll see the forces i'm talking about. 2 hours in a heat treating oven (while in the jig mind you) will take care of and releave all of that. sometimes you can do it wihtout the jig, but some pieces will come out different. To ensure quality, i would have a heavy duty jig from mild steel and heat treat afterwards.
Now.. about the bushings. I think the post above with the EVO arms offer a cool little bit that could be done. Instead of using the stock style bushings (metal or poly) you could have a bar that runs from the front mount to the rear bushing mounting bolts, then have the knuckle/ball ends ride on that (just like those EVO arms) that would make the parts common circle track stuff and easily replaced! that would be really cool.
But if the price is right on the ones with stock style bushings i think you could do okay (especially for like 250 a pair) since that would put you so close to buying the stockers what it would totally be worth the upgrade by the next ball joint replacement.,
Question for everyone: Would you rather see this type of product offered with polyurethane bushings or solid aluminum bushings?
Solid bushings. And I think you absolutely have to have the ability to adjust roll center. If the Moog replacements address roll center adjustment, then that would be fine - but I don't think they're any taller. If they're just stock replacements it doesn't do us much good. I think the perfect solution would be to design the arms around ball joints that adjust roll center and still fit our spindles (like the S13 240sx solution from Megan Racing).
The biggest inherent handling problem with a 1G DSM is that it cannot be lowered much without hindering handling due to the roll center. We need to be able to lower these cars more without having to endure bump steer and other handling issues associated with the roll center being out of wack. It doesn't make sense to design a front control arm without addressing this problem. If you're going to go through the trouble of designing a control arm, make sure it solves all the major problems that can be solved.
____________________________
-Chris
FP3150-powered road racer!
Please use the "Site Problems" forum or the "Tech" forums instead of sending "help" questions directly to me or the Moderators/Wisemen.
Only trying to help... you'll never hear me downplay some one's fab work as i love to do it myself and love to see what others are making as well
Replaceable ball joints is a BIG plus in my book.
As for heat treating, i didn't mean to harden the part.. only to relieve welding stresses!... Completely necessary, no.. but if you could see the stresses being forced on your materials just as they sit ( not on the car and loaded) you would defintitely want to heat treat. CHro-mo is very hard and brittle and the twists and contortion from the filler metal contracting will really put a lot of un-due force on the part before it ever goes into service.
Have the guy weld a flat square out of 4130 tubing, then take a saw and cut clean through any bar on that square, Once you're through the thing will POP and twist to where it wants to be and you'll see the forces i'm talking about. 2 hours in a heat treating oven (while in the jig mind you) will take care of and releave all of that. sometimes you can do it wihtout the jig, but some pieces will come out different. To ensure quality, i would have a heavy duty jig from mild steel and heat treat afterwards.
Now.. about the bushings. I think the post above with the EVO arms offer a cool little bit that could be done. Instead of using the stock style bushings (metal or poly) you could have a bar that runs from the front mount to the rear bushing mounting bolts, then have the knuckle/ball ends ride on that (just like those EVO arms) that would make the parts common circle track stuff and easily replaced! that would be really cool.
But if the price is right on the ones with stock style bushings i think you could do okay (especially for like 250 a pair) since that would put you so close to buying the stockers what it would totally be worth the upgrade by the next ball joint replacement.,
Much more sense on the heat treating aspect and understandable . As you explained, the more ductile filler should help with this a little. Paul I will speak with my welding proffesors tonight on this or see if there is a method that can be used to provide the same results without the use of a torch for that duration of time on each part.
wishihadatalon... What settings are you using on your TIG? With the right amperage you should be able to move fairly quick while keeping the HAZ rather small and thus making for less distortion and not changing the strength of the stock any further out than necessary
wishihadatalon... What settings are you using on your TIG? With the right amperage you should be able to move fairly quick while keeping the HAZ rather small and thus making for less distortion and not changing the strength of the stock any further out than necessary
This isn't my work. I have yet to weld chro-mo tubing but I know exactly what you are saying. When I build the stuff for my car, I will have the collective experience of my 3 welding instructors who have weld engineering degrees and have done 20+ years each of code quality work on pretty much everything.
This isn't my work. I have yet to weld chro-mo tubing but I know exactly what you are saying. When I build the stuff for my car, I will have the collective experience of my 3 welding instructors who have weld engineering degrees and have done 20+ years each of code quality work on pretty much everything.
COol, what will you be doing to yours? PM me if ya don't wanna get off topic, but i'm always interested in custom builds.
Chro-mo is fun once you learn to deal with it's attitude.
Question for everyone: Would you rather see this type of product offered with polyurethane bushings or solid aluminum bushings?
I think you need the option for both. Alot of the guys buying these are strictly using the car for racing and the solid bushing are great but having owned a dual duty car (trans am) I can say that I would prefer the Poly bushings. So if the car was strictly raced (ie: trailored) will utilize the solid but solid on the street is not a very good option. There is not alot of difference in ride quality (considering the springs and shocks that most racers are already using) but the added cushion of the poly helps prolong the life of components in the car compared to the abuse they see from using solid bushings.
I think you need the option for both. Alot of the guys buying these are strictly using the car for racing and the solid bushing are great but having owned a dual duty car (trans am) I can say that I would prefer the Poly bushings. So if the car was strictly raced (ie: trailored) will utilize the solid but solid on the street is not a very good option. There is not alot of difference in ride quality (considering the springs and shocks that most racers are already using) but the added cushion of the poly helps prolong the life of components in the car compared to the abuse they see from using solid bushings.
True, but then again, my question is this - how many DSMers who do NOT race their cars will buy these? It just doesn't seem to me there is much of a market for tubular control arms on street driven DSMs. I would bet that most DSMers who buy these would want solid bushings - even the ones who would drive it on the street. Those who would want to drive it on the street and want a smoother ride probably wouldn't shell out the coin for a mod like this to begin with. At least that's what I would think.
____________________________
-Chris
FP3150-powered road racer!
Please use the "Site Problems" forum or the "Tech" forums instead of sending "help" questions directly to me or the Moderators/Wisemen.
tell your friend to sell his welder. I don’t want to read about some pore guy/girl losing there life on the highway due to a very pore design failing. 
. You SIR are a fcuking retard.
Hollow criticism is useless, guys. If you can't post like an adult, then don't post at all. Thanks to everyone else for their input.
