machine work???

[gsxstac]

i know to have the bore, hone, polishing done. what else to do for a motor that can rev to 8000 or 8500 rpm?? i'd like the motor do be good for somewhere around that. i dont need 9000 rpm obviously but since i have a 60-1 now i def need to get a little higher then 7500. i'll be using dsmlink once i get the car broken in so thast not realy a question. i have a fresh head rebuild with crower springs/retainers and hks cams. only thing i dont have a is ss valves cuz i didnt feel they were necessary. any inshgt would be greatly appreciated

 

[Rick@AP]

Boring, honing and polishing will have no effect on what rpm you can run. The only thing that your machinist can do to help you raise your rpm limit, would be to balance the internal and external rotating assembly. If you have installed stiffer valve springs thats a good step to help avoid valve float which is your real problem at high rpms.

 

[gsxstac]

i know the boring and honing doesnt do anything for max rpm thast y i said i know i have to do that stuff, i was asking what else can be done.

 

[Rick@AP]

Originally posted by gsxstac
i know the boring and honing doesnt do anything for max rpm thast y i said i know i have to do that stuff

This statement makes no sense to me at all. I can't help you if I can't understand what you have typed.

I've given you all the information that I can give you based on what I was able to interpret. Maybe someone else, that can understand your typing and thought process, can help you more than I can.

 

[Defiant]

You'll want to knife-edge the crank and use a windage tray if you plan on turning that fast. But it's really pointless to. The amount of load it puts on the bottom-end and the liklihood of spinning a bearing really speaks against it.

 

[yanks12524]

Originally posted by Rick@AP
This statement makes no sense to me at all. I can't help you if I can't understand what you have typed.

I've given you all the information that I can give you based on what I was able to interpret. Maybe someone else, that can understand your typing and thought process, can help you more than I can.

NO ITS VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND. IN MY FIRST POST I WROTE " I KNOW I HAVE TO BORE AND HONE BUT WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO GET THE MOTOR TO REV OUT TO 8000 OR 8500 RPM SAFELY. BOREING AND HONING IS A GIVEN WHEN DOING MACHINE WORK, SO I KNOW I HAVE TO DO THAT STUFF, BUT WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO WHEN BUILDING A HIGH REV MOTOR. I MADE IT VERY CLEAR SO JUST READ THINGS A LITTLE MORE CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU RESPOND. OTHER THEN THAT I APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT. THANKS

 

[Rick@AP]

Originally posted by yanks12524
I KNOW I HAVE TO BORE AND HONE BUT WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO GET THE MOTOR TO REV OUT TO 8000 OR 8500 RPM SAFELY. BOREING AND HONING IS A GIVEN WHEN DOING MACHINE WORK, SO I KNOW I HAVE TO DO THAT STUFF, BUT WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO WHEN BUILDING A HIGH REV MOTOR.

First, loose the all caps.

Second, your statement, again, makes no sense, especially since I told you in my first post that boring and honing have no affect on rpm. Boring and honing are not givens, on any motor rebuild, either. Actually you are better off sticking with the stock cylinder dimensions than boring out the cylinder walls. In fact, boring hurts rpm if anything, because you now must increase the size of the piston because you increased the bore size. While the difference between the two pistons may be measure in ounces, between the weight of the stock piston and the oversized piston, those ouces turn into a large number of extra pounds when measured at a high rpm. This means your engine has to work that much harder to overcome the extra weight of the pistons.

Also, if the original cross hatching of the cylinder walls look good, or on a low mile motor, many people choose only to use a glaze breaker on the cylinder walls. I prefer re-honing to be on the safe side, but some don't.

Lastly, thank you for attempting to completely spell and type out a thought in a manner that doesn't make someones head hurt when you read it. I have horrible spelling and punctuation, but I at least try to make my ideas clear when asking for help so that people who are reading what you type don't have to try to decifer your meaning. IMHO, its just the courteous thing to do.

Good luck on your rebuild.

On another note, Defiant have you tried a windage tray or crank scraper on a 4g63 and seen any gains? I've looked at these devices before for use on a 4g63, but I could not see actually getting any gains from them. The reason being the crank never dips below the level of the oil in the pan. Just my thoughts, open to comments.

*just thought of something, windage trays are stock on the 2g's. The Mitsu techs must have put it there for a reason.*

 

[Suparata]

"Boring and honing are not givens, on any motor rebuild", True.
"Actually you are better off sticking with the stock cylinder dimensions than boring out the cylinder walls" .Not so true. It is not you who decide that. Your engine will tell you what to do.Unless you have a measuring device in your eyes, visual checking will only give you an idea of what is going on.
When you say you prefer "re-honing" over ball-honing what do you mean by that?

Back to the original question I think you will definitely need to strengthen the bottom end with rods, forged pistons, ARP's, Align Hone Mains and balance the complete rotating assy to be capable of safely rev it higher with all the load you will put on the engine. Although you did not think that SS Valves were necessary ,they would have been a good choice especially Oversized ones. Taking away all the benefits they would have given you the fact that those valves do not break if smacked alone would have been a smart investment.
Mitch.

 

[mustg5]

[email protected] explained it perfectly twice. I understood it both times. AND WHY NOT USE CAPS. DOESNT HURT ANYONE DOES IT. Dont put down because you dont understand. Anyway.... if you raise the compression ratio, you will be able to push a little high RPM. Other than that, the head work you have done is a must. Good luck and happy running.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mustg5
[email protected] explained it perfectly twice. I understood it both times. AND WHY NOT USE CAPS. DOESNT HURT ANYONE DOES IT. Dont put down because you dont understand. Anyway.... if you raise the compression ratio, you will be able to push a little high RPM. Other than that, the head work you have done is a must. Good luck and happy running.

Please explain how raising the compression will allow him to run a higher RPM.

 

[1fast97gsx]

raising compression ratio won't let you run more rpm ... less if anything I'd say right?

 

[mustg5]

running a higher compression ratio will allow you to raise the RPM. You will need to get a chip to raise the rev limiter to 8500 or 9000

 

[Rick@AP]

Originally posted by Suparata
"Boring and honing are not givens, on any motor rebuild", True.
"Actually you are better off sticking with the stock cylinder dimensions than boring out the cylinder walls" .Not so true. It is not you who decide that. Your engine will tell you what to do.Unless you have a measuring device in your eyes, visual checking will only give you an idea of what is going on.
When you say you prefer "re-honing" over ball-honing what do you mean by that?

Back to the original question I think you will definitely need to strengthen the bottom end with rods, forged pistons, ARP's, Align Hone Mains and balance the complete rotating assy to be capable of safely rev it higher with all the load you will put on the engine. Although you did not think that SS Valves were necessary ,they would have been a good choice especially Oversized ones. Taking away all the benefits they would have given you the fact that those valves do not break if smacked alone would have been a smart investment.
Mitch.

My God man, this post is more than a month old. But, since you dug it up I'll answer it....

The orginal poster asked:

i know to have the bore, hone, polishing done. what else to do for a motor that can rev to 8000 or 8500 rpm??

I took this to mean that he was asking: What else, other than boring and honing, would he have to do to increase the engines rev limit potential. This is why I stated (for the reasons listed above) that boring and honing do more to HURT rpm potential than to help it. This is why I suggested that he stick with the stock cylinder dimensions. The poster never suggested that the cylinders we out of round or that there is a problem with the stock block, just that he knew he need to do this in order to run a higher rpm than the stock limit, which is totally false.

When I use the term "glaze breaker" I refer to the item that can be purchased at Sears or an automotive store. This item is attached to a drill and allows a home mechanic to hone his own cylinders. While some people like this method, I don't particulary care for it, becuase most people do not use it correctly and because I've seen engines have oil control problems afterwards when these are used. So when I say a re-hone I mean take it to a professional machine shop and have them professionally rehone the cylinders with the right angle crosshatching and plateau hone.

On another note, oversized valves have nothing to do with an engines ability to rev higher. Also, oversized SS valves, means more mass on the valve train than a stock sized valve and would hurt instead of aiding the ability of the engine to rev higher.

Lastly, if you don't believe that a stainless steel valve will break when hit by a piston, I have a Ferrea 2mm over valve that hit the piston during a mis-shift at over 10k RPM that will prove your statement to be quite wrong.

 

[Suparata]

Rick,

It is the first time you say that stuff should be taken to a professional machine shop to be done right and that is to be appreciated. I expect from guys with experience to chime in every time a guy is close to take the wrong approach to a matter. I am tired of DYI type of advices that are abundant in these threads.These cars are a very important chapter in their owners lives because they will find out that the only way to get to good results is doing it the right way. DSM's are a joy to own but they can be a pain in the ... because they don't accept excuses. Treat them with respect and they will give you the best time of your life.

I do believe that some SS valves are heavy and they break easily but I'm not one of the guys that believe that Ferrea is the best thing that was invented since sex! I'm not saying that they are shitty but I don't think they are perfect either. Believe it or not the 1mm over ones we are using are 1g heavier than stock for the intake (1.8% MORE) and 1g lighter for the exhaust(1.8% LESS), they are Forged SS and a Hydraulic Press was only able to bend them not break them.

Bottom line , if you look at what he has done to the valvetrain you will see that he will be able to rev it to those numbers safely but here's the problem : is he going to actually achieve something by reving it that high? Sure the turbo he will use may be pretty efficient at those revs but only if it has enough charge to spin it.
Maybe it is time for Good Quality Oversized Valves after all.

gsxstac keep on doing what you're doing and make sure you talk to your machinist about what you intend to do with the engine and get the best for your ride since you are so deep into it by now. You have by now an idea of what it takes to get where you want so make sure you don't just get to those revs without actually making some extra HP and that you will not only do it a few times before it blows up.

Mitch.

P.S. On another note don't you guys think it would be nice to end your posts with your names so it makes easier to respond to a real person ? Just a thought.

 

[yanks12524]

well actually my friend was on my name and made this thread.. ive been getting all the replys in my email of ppl bashing him and this is the best reply yet not because it is supporting and motivating but its real. this isnt a place to make fun but to give advice. even though my friend is cocky in a way he needed some tips thanks a lot for this reply its been the best so far
kyle

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by yanks12524
well actually my friend was on my name and made this thread.. ive been getting all the replys in my email of ppl bashing him and this is the best reply yet not because it is supporting and motivating but its real. this isnt a place to make fun but to give advice. even though my friend is cocky in a way he needed some tips thanks a lot for this reply its been the best so far
kyle

Keep us posted how it works out.
Enjoy
Mitch.

 

[keltalon]

Originally posted by Rick@AP
My God man, this post is more than a month old. But, since you dug it up I'll answer it....

The orginal poster asked:


I took this to mean that he was asking: What else, other than boring and honing, would he have to do to increase the engines rev limit potential. This is why I stated (for the reasons listed above) that boring and honing do more to HURT rpm potential than to help it. This is why I suggested that he stick with the stock cylinder dimensions. The poster never suggested that the cylinders we out of round or that there is a problem with the stock block, just that he knew he need to do this in order to run a higher rpm than the stock limit, which is totally false.

When I use the term "glaze breaker" I refer to the item that can be purchased at Sears or an automotive store. This item is attached to a drill and allows a home mechanic to hone his own cylinders. While some people like this method, I don't particulary care for it, becuase most people do not use it correctly and because I've seen engines have oil control problems afterwards when these are used. So when I say a re-hone I mean take it to a professional machine shop and have them professionally rehone the cylinders with the right angle crosshatching and plateau hone.

On another note, oversized valves have nothing to do with an engines ability to rev higher. Also, oversized SS valves, means more mass on the valve train than a stock sized valve and would hurt instead of aiding the ability of the engine to rev higher.

Lastly, if you don't believe that a stainless steel valve will break when hit by a piston, I have a Ferrea 2mm over valve that hit the piston during a mis-shift at over 10k RPM that will prove your statement to be quite wrong.

the man missed a key on his keyboard! are you sofa king wee tod did!!

 

[keltalon]

Originally posted by Rick@AP
My God man, this post is more than a month old. But, since you dug it up I'll answer it....

The orginal poster asked:


This is why I suggested that he stick with the stock cylinder dimensions. The poster never suggested that the cylinders we out of round or that there is a problem with the stock block, just that he knew he need to do this in order to run a higher rpm than the stock limit, which is totally false.

how long have you been around man a 4g63 6 bolt engine. by my calculations 10 to 12 years old. by now the cylinders are way out of round fool!! wake up man we perfectly understood the question maybe you need to change over to subaru or honda talking all that bull!!

 

[Rick@AP]

Thanks for digging up a thread that's almost 2 months old and trying to flame bait me with your intelligent responses.